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Around the NHL 2010-2011 Part 3: Dave Steckel's Sweatin' to the Oldies Workout

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Old
03-09-2011, 12:19 PM
  #26
QuadrupleDeke
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It is an interesting theory about the "new" rules reducing stick and holding obstruction actually makes the game more dangerous. More speed. Cant use stick or arms. Have to make split second decisions on when and how to use your body. Not everything is under your control once you make decision to attempt a hit....

Chara hit is one example. But for me what I'd like to see the league allow is putting your hand on someone and "guiding" them into the boards as compared to having to push. I really think this rule change could help address a lot of the unnecessary boarding.
I believe it is Brian Burke that has submitted a "bear hug" rule for hits into the boards several years in a row, but no other GMs are supporting it.

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03-09-2011, 12:23 PM
  #27
brs03
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how many games do you think he deserves for what you seemingly believe to be a deliberate attempt to injure?

Again I see nothing wrong with Chara's actions. Its NHL hockey, not recess during kindergarden.
It was interference, though. So you've got arguably excessive force (understandable given the rivalry and the recent history the two players), at a time when a hit of any kind is illegal, in a place where the player ends up being very vulnerable.

Certainly no intention of doing what was done, but it's not like this was a pure accident either. Chara's actions were unquestionably illegal even without the horrifying injury, although you can certainly debate whether that would lead to a suspension.

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03-09-2011, 12:40 PM
  #28
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thanks BRS, I only watched the center ice game feed at full speed in french, one time; I hadn't noticed or heard the puck wasn't there. So it was a interference penalty; that certainly changes things when it comes to punishment. Injuries often dictate suspensions regardless of the call on the ice. And I wasnt aware of their recent history, but then that coupled with a 4 zippy game, just steer clear of 6'9 players if your health is a concern to you. Dump the puck and pull up.

I believe that watching these things frame by frame causes maximum knee jerk reaction so I purposefully didnt watch the painful slow motion replay, a neck brace, blood; a stretcher etc to try to remain objective.

yeah, Friedman hits a home run:
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Is it possible that for all of the talk about preventing injuries and concussions, the real problem is simply the game itself? That the best thing about hockey - the intensely competitive games, the tremendous skill, speed and power of the players - is the real danger?


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03-09-2011, 12:51 PM
  #29
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I think the best comparison to Chara's hit was Ovy's hit on Campbell last year. It wasn't deliberately dirty, but something went wrong. With Ovy, it was Campbell hitting a rut as he tried to apply the brakes, with Chara, it was the stanchion. I think the two hits while completely different in immediate nature, are similar in root causes.
The biggest difference is that a rut is largely invisible, and certainly not a constant fearture of the rink. Everyone knows where the stantion is. When you're riding a guy up the boards along the bench, you know that the stantion is coming. To get all lawyerly, the act of omission in Chara's case (not letting Pacioretty off the boards after he was improperly pinned there when the puck was long gone) is a fundamental part of the illicit conduct.

Also, per twitter:

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CBCNews Habs' Pacioretty has broken vertebrae, concussion http://*******/idA8GC


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Old
03-09-2011, 12:55 PM
  #30
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If it's out in the news now, before the verdict comes in, I'm not certain Chara gets off clean here, or with a couple of games. The extent of the injury really matters to the league.

The phone call versus in-person hearing is a guideline, but it's not something that the league has to follow. It's not collectively bargained. It's a courtesy. The league can talk to him over the phone and suspend him for more than five games.

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03-09-2011, 12:59 PM
  #31
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Has the league ever suspended someone indefinitely pending further review in a weeks time say? To allow for more knowledge on extent of injury? Its a way to actually do it without saying: "3-15 games depending on what we find out"

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03-09-2011, 01:06 PM
  #32
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Has the league ever suspended someone indefinitely pending further review in a weeks time say? To allow for more knowledge on extent of injury? Its a way to actually do it without saying: "3-15 games depending on what we find out"
I don't think they want to give the impression that they suspend specific to injury in some cases. You can't make it seem like you suspend based on end result because it backs you into a corner to always do it that way (although this line of thinking only applies given a certain level of accountability in preserving consistency and setting precedent). The league offices have never really be interested in any of that.

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03-09-2011, 01:08 PM
  #33
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The phone call versus in-person hearing is a guideline, but it's not something that the league has to follow. It's not collectively bargained. It's a courtesy. The league can talk to him over the phone and suspend him for more than five games.
Yes and no. A formal hearing is the official protocol if preliminary findings indicate that a suspension of six or more games may be necessary. Players can waive the right to an in-person hearing, however. No word whether that may be the case here.

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03-09-2011, 01:09 PM
  #34
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The biggest difference is that a rut is largely invisible, and certainly not a constant fearture of the rink. Everyone knows where the stantion is. When you're riding a guy up the boards along the bench, you know that the stantion is coming.
Exactly. I wouldn't really call the plays comparable.

I'm sure Chara has played at that arena many times and should have some awareness of the location of the stantion and his position on the ice in relation to it. Even if he didn't know exactly how close they were going to be, he should have recognized that the possibility was there and acted accordingly. There is probably a reason we don't see plays like that more often, and it is likely due to the fact that players recognize the danger of making that type of play in that part of the ice and act accordingly.

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03-09-2011, 01:13 PM
  #35
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I swear if you look close enough to the Bruins bench you can see Martin Kove next to Jean Claude Van Julien saying "Out of commission..."



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03-09-2011, 01:17 PM
  #36
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I don't think they want to give the impression that they suspend specific to injury in some cases. You can't make it seem like you suspend based on end result because it backs you into a corner to always do it that way (although this line of thinking only applies given a certain level of accountability in preserving consistency and setting precedent). The league offices have never really be interested in any of that.
But yet they do punish both suspensions and penalties wrt to injury. And in suspensions case, its whether they want to admit it or not. Two similar acts that have different consequences always receive different punishments. I hate it. But its how they roll.

So my question was a way for them to do it without crossing that line of finally admitting it.

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03-09-2011, 01:20 PM
  #37
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I remember one game against the Pens, a Cap hacked at the glove as taught and Pepe went down like he got hit by The Steckel Express. The Cap was suspended and it was announced the next morning, 3 games IIRC. Pepe didnt return to that game, but to everyone's surprise came back for his next game. Missed maybe a period. I think it was a playoff game, and we all thought he had a broken wrist. I cant find any info on it but did find this interesting slash. You think the game is rough now, watch this one. FFWD to the 4min mark where you can see Pepe is no angel himself.

http://wn.com/Mario_Lemieux_Gets_Slashed_In_The_Throat

Pepe feigned injury of course. The cross check to Varly's head was worse and he kept right on playing.

Long Live Todd Krygier!

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03-09-2011, 01:26 PM
  #38
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Yes and no. A formal hearing is the official protocol if preliminary findings indicate that a suspension of six or more games may be necessary. Players can waive the right to an in-person hearing, however. No word whether that may be the case here.
That's just it though. Only in the last couple of hours is the extent of the injury becoming clearer. Preliminary indications painted an imperfect picture of the injury.

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03-09-2011, 01:30 PM
  #39
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My problem with the hit is that Chara says he was trying to ride him into the boards, yet I don't think I saw his lower body make contact with Pac at all. It looks like the only "riding" he did was to push Pac's upper body over the boards and into the glass partition. The fact that he was trying to pick a fight with him all last game doesn't look good either. Like Chara, but think it was a dumb choice by him.

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03-09-2011, 01:30 PM
  #40
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Quote:
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So with Chicago playing the second half of a back-to-back in Tampa, I decided to finally look it up. These are the teams with one portion of a back to back being in Tampa Bay:

Boston: @fla-@tam
Washington: @fla-@tam
NY Rangers: @tam-@fla
Buffalo: @fla-@tam
Toronto: @car-@tam, @tam-@fla
Atlanta: home-@tam, @tam-home, home-@tam
Florida: home-@tam, home-@tam, @tam-home
Ottawa: @fla-@tam
Detroit: @tam-@fla
Chicago: @fla-@tam
Phoenix: @phi-@tam
Nashville: @dal-@tam
Columbus: @tam-@fla
Colorado: @car-@tam

That's 19 of Tampa Bay's 41 home games being part of a back-to-back for the visiting team, with 13 of those being the second game.

(Note: This isn't counting any games where Tampa Bay is the visiting team for anyone's back-to-back, which there were many, many examples of. This is just where Tampa hosts a team during their back-to-back.)

Totally absurd.
The same thing happens for LA/Ana/SJ out west. SJ seems to benefit from a lot of 3 in 4 nighters or b2bs. That's just how it is and always has been.

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03-09-2011, 01:36 PM
  #41
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That's just it though. Only in the last couple of hours is the extent of the injury becoming clearer. Preliminary indications painted an imperfect picture of the injury.
Eh, I don't think it changes things too much...even factoring in any tendency to suspend based on injury. I'd be surprised if he gets more than the two games I expected prior to the latest info coming out.

Who knows, though. The wheel of justice is tough to handicap.

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03-09-2011, 01:40 PM
  #42
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Has the league ever suspended someone indefinitely pending further review in a weeks time say? To allow for more knowledge on extent of injury? Its a way to actually do it without saying: "3-15 games depending on what we find out"
Dale Hunter. He was suspended indefinitely, because the Caps season was over, and it came down later the 21 games. 8 days went by between being suspended indefinitely and the announcement of the 21 games (then 1/4th of the season).

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03-09-2011, 01:40 PM
  #43
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Eh, I don't think it changes things too much...even factoring in any tendency to suspend based on injury. I'd be surprised if he gets more than the two games I expected prior to the latest info coming out.

Who knows, though. The wheel of justice is tough to handicap.
Damnit, Pronger!

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03-09-2011, 01:44 PM
  #44
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no suspension by that chart.

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03-09-2011, 01:52 PM
  #45
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Loved that Post-season chart. Simplicity is the key.

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Old
03-09-2011, 01:58 PM
  #46
HSHS
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Dale Hunter. He was suspended indefinitely, because the Caps season was over, and it came down later the 21 games. 8 days went by between being suspended indefinitely and the announcement of the 21 games (then 1/4th of the season).
Duh!!!!!

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Old
03-09-2011, 02:01 PM
  #47
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Was McSorely suspended indefinitely in the Brashear incident back in 2001(?)?

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03-09-2011, 02:06 PM
  #48
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Was McSorely suspended indefinitely in the Brashear incident back in 2001(?)?
He was suspended the rest of the season (23 games) at the time. That extention was furthered to one full year after his conviction, but it didn't matter since he never played again.

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03-09-2011, 02:14 PM
  #49
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My 2Cs on the Chara hit I thought the refs handled it in game penalty wise correctly. I just don't think there was malicious intent. Seeing at speed as Chara disengages he extends that elbow and Max P seems to sort of jump a little. I definitely see it being maybe a couple of games or so in the this day and age.

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03-09-2011, 02:18 PM
  #50
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My 2Cs on the Chara hit I thought the refs handled it in game penalty wise correctly. I just don't think there was malicious intent. Seeing at speed as Chara disengages he extends that elbow and Max P seems to sort of jump a little. I definitely see it being maybe a couple of games or so in the this day and age.
What did Ovy get for Brian Campbell? 3? That's what I'd give Chara.

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