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Chara hit to be investigated by police

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Old
03-10-2011, 11:21 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Kezia View Post
That's my point, most physical hockey plays are acts of aggression. When and where do we draw the line? Do we charge similar hits, only hits that result in injuries?

It's not a can of worms that should be opened.
When it's life-treatning

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Old
03-10-2011, 11:23 AM
  #52
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Sure.

Why not bring the police in?

Chara wanted revenge on Pax. He drove his neck into the turnbuckle by holding him down (instead of letting up). Anyone can see this.

CHARA WILL NOT ADMIT TO IT BECAUSE HE WILL BE FINANCIALLY/ CRIMINALLY LIABLE IS PATCHES CAN'T RECOVER HIS CAREER.

Yeah, bring in the Cops to ask some questions.

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Old
03-10-2011, 11:23 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by McSorleyStick View Post
That play was an agression, and an act that resulted in serious injuries.

Yes, it has to be investigated

Hockey rink, in a mall, on the streets... a dangerous act is a dangerous, regardless of the location
You need a little perspective. A mild shove or threatening words can result in criminal action off the ice.

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Old
03-10-2011, 11:25 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Le depisteur View Post
You seem to forget the Pacioretty-Chara's case is special. There was an recent history between both teams and especially between both players. By this fact, there's premeditation in the air...
Conjecture, not grounds for charges.

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03-10-2011, 11:26 AM
  #55
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I think the "investigation" by the police is just BS, nothing serious will be done. But any bad publicity for the NHL is good.

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03-10-2011, 11:26 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
When it's life-treatning
Pretty much. Go high speed in a school zone and you'll probably just get a ticket and not be charged with criminal negligence (although you could). Hit little Suzie while you are at it and you bet your butt you will.

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Old
03-10-2011, 11:26 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Dylbot View Post
You need a little perspective. A mild shove or threatening words can result in criminal action off the ice.
But those don't result in a severe concussion and a fractured vertebra

(well, depending on how one reacts to a mild shove or threatening words )

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Old
03-10-2011, 11:27 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Artie View Post
When Latendresse nailed DiMaio, where was the outcry
When Pacioretty nailed Eaton into the boards, where was the outcry



I understand the emotion of seeing Pacioretty on the ice and I understand the call for justice and maybe even retribution, but trying to turn this incident into a criminal offense is over the top.

You want the public to boycott the NHL for their stance on head shots and gratuitous violence, fine.

You want to get sponsors to put pressure on the league to clean up it's act, fine

But we should have rallied just as much when Booth and Savard and Bergeron and Crosby were victims.

Maybe we as fans are just as guilty as the NHL for believing these were isolated incidents.

I'm not saying that we should sit idly by, but let's get it done without emotion over the incident but with emotion for the general malaise that is deep rooted in the NHL.
Two wrongs doesn't make one right.
Do you really want to go down the list of missed opportunities from the league to pass on a message? I mean, we'll still be here naming some tomorrow.

It's only normal that there's a bigger outcry when it becomes more personal. You know just how important the Habs are to the Mtl population. So, it's not surprising that the reaction is a lot more intense when something of the sort happens to one of our own. Nasty crimes around the world happen every day, but you won't nearly be as affected by them unless it happens to you or your loved ones. Same thing here.

For how long now have we heard, across the league, that it seems the NHL is waiting for someone to get killed on the ice before starting to act. All it takes is one event, at the wrong place, at the wrong time, before it turns into something big. The famous snowball effect.
Chara hit the wrong guy (Habs player and had a history), at the wrong place (in Mtl), at the wrong time (rematch promoted by violence and Julien/Lucic/Marchand put their foot in their mouth with their comments the day before). This could have been handled properly by the league. They know there's pressure on them to act more harshly towards dangerous hits, they're aware of the vivid criticism, and yet they don't take the time to even interview the victim before passing their judgment?
Snowball effect in full force, and you could have predicted it.

Cooke, Richards, Latendresse, heck, even the MaxPac hit on Eaton, all of those hits should have been harsh punishment, but they weren't. There also was the D'Ago hit remember?
But this is different. There's the events two games ago that lead to what happened in the previous game. Chara chopping MaxPac's leg, going after him in a scrum and trying to take his head off. The overhype of this rematch that was solely aimed towards violence. I was at the gym working during the game and I was watching with one client when we said, man 4-0, something's gonna go down in the 3rd. A minute later, MAxPac is unconscious.
For some reason, everybody just knew, something was going to happen. That's why this time, it's making a huge outcry.

All the evidence points towards premeditation, and the fact the league took half a day to dismiss that, without even talking to the victim, certainly added more fuel to the fire.


It is sad to see the cops get into it, but the league has not been showing that they can police itself.

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Old
03-10-2011, 11:32 AM
  #59
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Not sure if this will amount to anything but im glad they are. The fact that Chara had it in for Patches Could be a Mitigating factor

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03-10-2011, 11:34 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kezia View Post
That's my point, most physical hockey plays are acts of aggression. When and where do we draw the line? Do we charge similar hits, only hits that result in injuries?

It's not a can of worms that should be opened.
Good question.

IMHO, if it looks as if it's a deliberate attack (and if the victim is severely injured) then yes there should be a criminal charge.

Look at the Bertuzzi incident: he clearly attacks Moore.

Now, depending on how Chara's play is looked at, then It could be the same thing; if, and only if, it's obvious, or proven, that Chara deliberately shoves Patches into Joel Bouchard's home, then it's similar to the Bertuzzi incident.

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03-10-2011, 11:34 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
The issue is clear: And many in the NHL know it: Penalize the result of player on player action, not the intent, which is impossible to define except in cases of assault or stick swinging.

In 40 years of watching the NHL and playing hockey, I have seen injury result from 2 causes:

1. Accidents without intentional contact: Player slides into an immovable goal post. Player gets cut by a flying skate. There was no player on player action during any of these incidents.

2. An opposing player applies force to another player. Part of hockey. We all know. That's hockey.

But: In my forty years of playing and watching, it is clear to me empirically that 99.9 percent of clean player on player action results in at worst a mild concussion, perhaps a torn knee, or even a broken arm. However, and I have 40 years of evidence to back this up: 99.9 percent of clean player on player action does NOT result in major trauma to the head, career ending concussion, or a broken neck.

Therefore: The NHL must act on player on player action resulting in serious head and neck injury. If head or neck injury is a result, automatic and long suspensions, say 40 games, should result. No exceptions. Penalize the result, not the intention.
The judgement & outcome of ones action is the key here...it was poor judgement by Chara to push Patches head on the stanchion....it was a life threating outcome by his poor judgement....Chara is guilty!....

I don't agree with any criminal charges....but the NHL has brough this upon themselves by not properly policing player's judgment and actions....

Hockey Players & the NHL make mistakes...there's nothing wrong admiting mistakes and correcting a wrong...the NHL needs to reverse their decision and suspensed Chara for a large number of games.....That's the only way they can save face and set an example that there's zero tolerance for poor judgement by hockey players.

The NHL needs to police their own league without having the police do it for them.

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Old
03-10-2011, 11:39 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
The issue is clear: And many in the NHL know it: Penalize the result of player on player action, not the intent, which is impossible to define except in cases of assault or stick swinging.

In 40 years of watching the NHL and playing hockey, I have seen injury result from 2 causes:

1. Accidents without intentional contact: Player slides into an immovable goal post. Player gets cut by a flying skate. There was no player on player action during any of these incidents.

2. An opposing player applies force to another player. Part of hockey. We all know. That's hockey.

But: In my forty years of playing and watching, it is clear to me empirically that 99.9 percent of clean player on player action results in at worst a mild concussion, perhaps a torn knee, or even a broken arm. However, and I have 40 years of evidence to back this up: 99.9 percent of clean player on player action does NOT result in major trauma to the head, career ending concussion, or a broken neck.

Therefore: The NHL must act on player on player action resulting in serious head and neck injury. If head or neck injury is a result, automatic and long suspensions, say 40 games, should result. No exceptions. Penalize the result, not the intention.
so if a player tries to hit the head with his stick 3-4 times and misses = 0
vs a clean legal hit and the guy falls badly and hit his head directly on the ice and have a major concussion = 40 games?

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Old
03-10-2011, 11:39 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by McSorleyStick View Post
But those don't result in a severe concussion and a fractured vertebra

(well, depending on how one reacts to a mild shove or threatening words )
Of course. But my point is there's no use even comparing these two radically different worlds.

This isn't a play where Chara did something with the CLEAR intention of causing injury. It's not a stick swing, a sucker punch, or a hit away from the play.

Even if you suspect intent to injure, which is nothing more than a personal opinion, proving it is out of the question.

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Old
03-10-2011, 11:44 AM
  #64
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Guys I think a league executive escaped to a zoo to, y'know, get away from it all


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Old
03-10-2011, 11:45 AM
  #65
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Something I would like to see done, is an expansion of the "intent to injure" rule that places more responsibility on the committer of a given act.

Under this rule Chara, as an example, would have to be responsible for knowing where he is on the ice and the potential danger of a hit he delivers. With such a rule, you take intent, something impossible to prove on such a play, out of the equation.

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03-10-2011, 11:48 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
This means nothing people.

Was the hit intentional? Probably.
Can you prove it in court? No.

Chara won't face justice.
If it cannot be proven, hasn't justice been served? I mean, we live in a society where you're INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty, don't we?

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03-10-2011, 11:48 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Dylbot View Post
Of course. But my point is there's no use even comparing these two radically different worlds.

This isn't a play where Chara did something with the CLEAR intention of causing injury. It's not a stick swing, a sucker punch, or a hit away from the play.

Even if you suspect intent to injure, which is nothing more than a personal opinion, proving it is out of the question.
You will never prove the intent unless you have credible witnesses that come out with revealing statements. You won't find any physical evidence that points towards it.
You'll find a lot of circumstantial evidence that points towards it, the reaction after the shove two games ago, the slash on the leg and the obvious aim towards MaxPac in a scrum last game, the hype up of this rematch towards violence, the history and rivalry between those two teams, the frame by frame picture of him physically shoving him into the turnbuckle (to the point where his hand pretty much hits it as well), the fact he delivered a hit when MaxPac didn't have the puck, MaxPac's own words that say Chara prevented him from protecting him and flat out held his head.

I don't think it'll go down in court, but the fact that this is an added stress for Chara and a black eye for the league already make things better for me.

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Old
03-10-2011, 11:53 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by CBA View Post
The NHL should have dealt with this better and they **** up. But the police getting involved is just noise to keep people happy. Pacioretty is not going to press charges, and the police are not going to lay any charges when all is said and done.
My thoughts exactly.

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03-10-2011, 11:54 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kezia View Post


Shall we start prosecuting every fight, injury resulting check/board and slash too?
Exactly, this is getting out of hand. At what point do people move on and worry about Max's recovery and the team winning the Cup?

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Old
03-10-2011, 11:54 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post

I don't think it'll go down in court, but the fact that this is an added stress for Chara and a black eye for the league already make things better for me.
Amen to that...

Now if a couple more sponsors could pressure the league, it'd be even better...

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Old
03-10-2011, 11:55 AM
  #71
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One of the main things you learn in business law is that if you don't take care of societal issues within your organization seriously the effects can be drastic. It usually follows this very order where it is a minor issue at first then it eventually becomes a societal issue and once it hits the political level you may lose control over your organization because of increased legislation. Head shots have been a big issue over the last few years and the NHL has done practically nothing to fix it, they keep trying to sweep it under the rug with meaningless minor penalty additions to the rules. Well now the NHL is slowly but surely heading in a direction where most organizations spend millions of dollars a year trying to avoid.

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03-10-2011, 11:55 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by CBA View Post
The NHL should have dealt with this better and they **** up. But the police getting involved is just noise to keep people happy. Pacioretty is not going to press charges, and the police are not going to lay any charges when all is said and done.
Exactly, but moar bad press for the league is okay with me.

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Old
03-10-2011, 11:56 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
When it's life-treatning
So according to you, it would be fair to let players get away with violent acts if there is no injury? That's the problem with NHL and the law. Either you go all the way, or you leave the league officials to police itself.

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03-10-2011, 11:58 AM
  #74
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Exactly, this is getting out of hand. At what point do people move on and worry about Max's recovery and the team winning the Cup?
When we'll know that the league will protect the players, that we'll know that the Bruins aren't totally exempt from what's illegal, when we'll know that the incompetant that works in the NHL head office will be fired...

The fact is that if there's nothing done about it, nothing will change... it's not a question of not wanting to "move on", but wanting things to change for the better...

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Old
03-10-2011, 12:01 PM
  #75
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He didn't have the puck, but he knocked it into the Bruins zone about half a second before the hit. In retrospect, I don't feel it's interference, and if there's no injury, it's simply a good play to rub a guy out after he dumps the puck. (As far as an interference call goes.)

Might be able to call it roughing, as Chara got his left hand up a bit, but it's hard to see if it actually makes contact with Max's head or not.

I honestly don't see anything in current rules to prosecute Chara on. However, that's not to say there shouldn't be rule modification to put more of an onus on Chara, and others.

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