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Should the Wings trade Filppula in the off-season?

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Old
03-12-2011, 01:29 PM
  #51
sarcastro
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Flip scores when it matters. People seem to forget/ignore that for whatever reason.



Last edited by sarcastro: 03-12-2011 at 01:34 PM. Reason: add video
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Old
03-12-2011, 01:33 PM
  #52
Dangler1340
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
I think the value of Flip vs Cleary is pretty close. Since Cleary makes less atm, I agree that Cleary is more bang for the buck. However, that doesn't really mean anything when considering the value of Flip. The comparisons to other 2nd-line centers in the league have been made here in the past, and they've shown that Flip is an average 2nd-line center at worst, and is paid below average in relation.
If Filppula is an average 2nd line center in the league, then what good is he for the Wings?...The Wings don't aspire to be an average team.

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03-12-2011, 01:34 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by mindfly View Post
He doesn't produce enough to be on this team being soft, if he's not producung the points required he should be replaced by a forward who brings more useful elements + some scoring tough of course. Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen etc are rather soft but usually they produce, filppula doesn't. He will never be a bonafide second line center.
Well Ken Holland, Mike Babcock, and the rest of the team thinks he already is, but I guess since you say he isn't nor will he ever be, it's true.

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03-12-2011, 01:47 PM
  #54
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Zetterberg and Datsyuk is no.1 no.2, filppula is a third line center - at best.

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03-12-2011, 01:49 PM
  #55
jaster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangler1340 View Post
Yes, Helm is better defensively, thats why you see him on the pk and out at end of games and not Filppula.
Oh, ok. To the former.... that's also why Helm is better defensively than Zetterberg and Datsyuk too, yeah? To the latter.... well, that's just not true.

Helm is a good PKer. That says little about his defense. Especially since at 5v5, Helm is pretty bad defensively, and is why, unless he improves, he will always be a 4th liner.


Quote:
Fits the system perfectly??
As a center, Flip is a two-way player with skill and who skates well. That's exactly what the Wings want in their top centers. That is what I meant by fitting the system. If specific parts of his game are not to your liking, that's your prerogative, but that's also another issue.



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Originally Posted by Dogkota View Post
Yes, I would definitely say that Helm is equal to, or better than, Filppula defensively.
See above.


Quote:
To be clear, I also never said that Filppula was bad defensively, but Helm is a better skater, uses his body more effectively, is a much more aggressive puck hound and backchecker and is arguably the team's best penalty killing forward.
The problem is, those are mostly periphery defensive qualities. At 5v5, in his own zone, Helm often gets lost. Gets out of position. Loses his man. This results in scoring chances and goals. Flip does not suffer from those ailments. That's the key difference between the two.

PKing is simple compared to defense at 5v5. And, as someone else mentioned, it's based more on speed than 5v5 defense is, and that's why Helm is so good at it.


Quote:
I'm not trying to disparage Flip because I think he's a good player, but I also think that he's a tweener who has thus far been incapable of taking the next step. Flip has had extended periods of ineffective play while having the benefit of excellent linemates. I realize that Franzen and Bertuzzi are streaky scorers, but Flip's lack of physicality in the corners really hurts his ability to make plays as their pivot. I think the team would benefit from moving Helm up to 3C and putting Filppula's salary toward a scoring line winger.
There are legitimate gripes to be made about Flip, no question. I just don't think those gripes are enough to equate to the Wings trading Flip this off-season. I don't think they should or will. I think what he offers this team outweighs those gripes.

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03-12-2011, 02:05 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangler1340 View Post
Or Helm is better Defensively because he uses his body better, wins more faceoffs and has a better plus minus than Filppula, all while having a similar point total. But don't take my word for it, just look who is on the ice in a one goal game in the last minute if Datsyuk and Zetterberg aren't out there....I'll give you a hint its not Filppula
Flip is out there at least as much as Helm. And when Helm is out there at the end of games, it's because of his speed, not his defense, imo. He's always out there with two good defensive forwards to give him top cover.

Helm is not better at faceoffs than Flip. They are roughly equal, with Flip having better career numbers and getting tougher matchups.

And using +/- to support who is better defensively? You're up a river without a paddle on that one.


Last edited by jaster: 03-12-2011 at 03:08 PM.
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03-12-2011, 02:10 PM
  #57
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[QUOTE=jaster;31617726]Oh, ok. To the former.... that's also why Helm is better defensively than Zetterberg and Datsyuk too, yeah? To the latter.... well, that's just not true.

Helm is a good PKer. That says little about his defense. Especially since at 5v5, Helm is pretty bad defensively, and is why, unless he improves, he will always be a 4th liner.


No I never said he was better than Datsyuk and Zetterberg, they are also always out there on the pk and out in the last minute of a game. And helm is pretty bad defensively??? Then why is Helm plus 9 on the year? He will always be a fourth liner??...he has 3...YES 3 less points than Filppula this year...and yes he has played a few more games, but he also plays less time per game, and never plays on the power play. But there just stats, what do they know.

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03-12-2011, 02:11 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Dangler1340 View Post
If Filppula is an average 2nd line center in the league, then what good is he for the Wings?...The Wings don't aspire to be an average team.
The Wings can't have guys who are the best in their role compared to the league at every position. There is a salary cap and there's no way they could afford it.

That aside, I said "at worst." Other metrics put him in the top 1/3. And I think most players on the Wings can be shown to be "average at worst" in their roles.

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03-12-2011, 02:25 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangler1340 View Post
No I never said he was better than Datsyuk and Zetterberg,
But you said Helm is better than Flip defensively because he PKs regularly and Flip doesn't. Well, neither do Zetterberg and Datsyuk.


Quote:
they are also always out there on the pk
No, they aren't. The thing you are missing is the shift the Wings have made in recent years. Their best players used to be their primary PKers. Hank, Dats, and Flip were all regulars. The Wings have moved away from that. None of them are regular PKers. They have transitioned to using bottom-6 guys (Helm, Eaves, Abs), who are also capable, and can give the top forwards some rest.


Quote:
And helm is pretty bad defensively??? Then why is Helm plus 9 on the year?
Because he's been able to generate some points, plays against weaker competition, and has garnered several pluses on the PK. On top of that, +/- is an extremely fluky stat when the sample size is only 3/4 of a season. I mean, Rafalski is +15 higher than Lidstrom, does that make him a better defender?


Quote:
He will always be a fourth liner??...he has 3...YES 3 less points than Filppula this year...and yes he has played a few more games, but he also plays less time per game, and never plays on the power play. But there just stats, what do they know.
Stats are useless when you take them out of context or don't understand what they actually mean. And when it comes to where Helm can eventually play, the comparison between him and Flip doesn't mean anything. My point is that, until Helm can be more responsible at 5v5, his upside is limited as a center with the Detroit Red Wings.

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03-12-2011, 02:39 PM
  #60
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I would be all for trading Filppula at this point really.

Hes a third line center making 3 million, and if I were Holland I would scrap this attempt at a scoring third line and make one like we had in 08 which clearly worked in playoffs.


Model a line in the form of Drake Draper Cleary again.

I would try to get someone like Manny Malhotra for that third line center spot then with the extra dough saved from him and the cap going up you could still go get a scoring winger or spend more money on a defenceman or two.

Lines like Flip-Modano- Hudler or other lines of that ilk just aren't lines that get it done in playoffs.

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Old
03-12-2011, 02:51 PM
  #61
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First off he doesn't play 20 minutes a night, and I dunno what games you watch but he repetitively turns the puck over and loses draws in the D zone, so to me yeah that is a liability. AND all I said was that Helm was better Defensively, not an overall better player...but honestly it's getting closer because Helm keeps improving, while Filp doesn't. Also he is not better than most of the forwards on the team, or he would consistently be on the top two lines every night. Even though he is the fourth highest payed forward.
I said he's a guy who CAN play 20 minutes a night, not that he does regularly. Last year in the playoffs he was at 18:30 and is around 17:00 in the regular season when healthy. When he plays a lot of minutes, you don't have to worry about it.

He's about the same on the draws as Helm is, although this year he's 1.1% off. I definitely do think Flips defensive instincts are still quit ea bit better than Helm's. Helm plays hard and is good defensively through his ability to get around and be physical, where Flip, to me, is more like Datsyuk defensively(although nowhere near), in the sense that he knows where to be and reads the play.

Offensively he's still quite a bit better than Helm, but like I said, the problem now is that I don't think Flip is ever going to improve from a 45point guy. He will probably always score at about a 45-50 point pace and play well defensively, but I know everyone expected more. Helm will probably top out at 40-45 points(which would be great) for a couple years here and there, but won't consistently put up Flip's numbers.

Quote:
Also he is not better than most of the forwards on the team, or he would consistently be on the top two lines every night. Even though he is the fourth highest payed forward
Funny you would say that, because the last two years(this included) he's been fourth in ice time among forwards only behind D, Z, and Franzen. He's also been around fourth in ES ice time the last four years except when Hossa was here, for obvious reasons. So, he's consistently played in the ice time of a top 6 on this team, even if the lines are not always lined up that way.

I think we know what we've got with Flip, he's a ~45 point second line center who can play in all situations, score here and there(especially if he had scorers to play with, that's something to consider) who does in FACT raise his game in the playoffs.

When you've got a guy like Flip as the third line center, that's a real luxury to have, IMO. Frankly, I'd like to see him there again because Datsyuk and Zetterberg suck together.

Hudler - Datsyuk - Cleary
Franzen - Zetterberg - Bert(Eaves)
Abby - Flip - Eaves
Draper - Helm - Miller

Really do not see where Homer and Modano fit into a full line up, but I'd go with something like that. I know Homer and Modano have to be in for Babcock.

3rd line is two way with some punch, 4th is fast and energetic. Really liking Draper this year too!

As for the Cleary vs Flip, just mean that it would be nice if he produced like that(except more of a playmaker) but I know he's in like with more second line centers, some people don't seem to understand that.

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Old
03-13-2011, 12:35 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Flip is out there at least as much as Helm. And when Helm is out there at the end of games, it's because of his speed, not his defense, imo. He's always out there with two good defensive forwards to give him top cover.

Helm is not better at faceoffs than Flip. They are roughly equal, with Flip having better career numbers and getting tougher matchups.

And using +/- to support who is better defensively? You're up a river without a paddle on that one.
Please look at the FO% over the last couple years...Helm IS better on faceoffs than Filppula, I don't know why I have to keep bringing this up or why some of you just wont believe it....I never said Filppula was terrible on draws, but he is not as good as the other centers. Face off percentage doesn't lie. And ya Helm is out there at the end of games because of his speed???...thats why Zetterberg and Datsyuk are out there in key situations too right because they have blazing speed.

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03-13-2011, 12:56 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Dangler1340 View Post
Please look at the FO% over the last couple years...Helm IS better on faceoffs than Filppula, I don't know why I have to keep bringing this up or why some of you just wont believe it.... I never said Filppula was terrible on draws, but he is not as good as the other centers. Face off percentage doesn't lie.
Flip had a higher % last year, Helm has a higher % this year. Neither is a big difference in %. And Flip has played against tougher competition. Both have a good technique, both win more than they lose, and neither are dominating. There is not a meaningful difference between the two. To try to help support this whimsical argument that Helm is better defensively than Flip because he's better at faceoffs, when he's not, and when faceoffs are not considered part of defensive play, is a bit silly.


Quote:
And ya Helm is out there at the end of games because of his speed???...thats why Zetterberg and Datsyuk are out there in key situations too right because they have blazing speed.
Defense and speed are both valuable when a team is trying to take away opposition chances. Helm is fast and below average defensively. Hank and Dats are great defensively and not very fast. The conclusion should be pretty simple.

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03-14-2011, 06:23 PM
  #64
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[QUOTE=jaster;31638793]Flip had a higher % last year, Helm has a higher % this year.

2009-10 Regular Season
Helm - 52.4%
Filppula - 51.2

2009-10 Playoffs
Helm - 51.2%
Filppula - 47.1%

2008-09 Regular Season
Helm - 56.1%
Filppula - 52.1%

2008-09 Playoffs
Helm - 51.7%
Filppula - 51.2%

I have no idea where your getting your stats from, but you might need to get a better source.

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03-14-2011, 06:33 PM
  #65
jaster
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No, I don't need a better source. I'm using NHL.com, which is the most reliable source for that data. The correct numbers for the 09-10 season are:

Helm - 51.1%
Filppula - 51.7%

You're also lacking some context. Helm's 08-09 regular season % is based on only 132 draws, which is a tiny sample size for an entire season. Moreover, Flip's 09-10 playoff % is based on only 34 faceoffs, which is basically a meaningless sample size.

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03-14-2011, 06:55 PM
  #66
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Here are some quality sample sizes:

Career
Flip - 51.71%
Helm - 51.30%

Playoffs
Flip - 51.41%
Helm - 49.68%

So, while Helm has been a tad bit better this season, Flip has been a bit better overall, in a larger sample size, and noticeably better in the playoffs. My conclusion remains the same: Both are good at faceoffs, with neither being better than the other in a meaningful way. But if one must be selected as being better than the other, it's Flip. Saying Helm is better defensively than Flip partly because he's better at faceoffs is dishonest.

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03-15-2011, 11:53 PM
  #67
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Flip is one of those guys that simply looks better than he really is. I've been saying from day 1 that he'll never be more than a 50 point guy at best, and I've always been railed for it. Good to see everyone coming around.

If Flip were the same player, and was as physical as Cleary, or as consistently energetic as Helm, then he'd be a great cog on this team. Absent that, I think he's pretty expendable, but at the same time, hes not hurting the team roster-wise or cap-wise.

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03-15-2011, 11:59 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Flip scores when it matters. People seem to forget/ignore that for whatever reason.

That's a bit silly, Saracstro. Anytime someone scores a playoff goal, does that mean they get a free pass?
For a guy touted as some sort of prime time playoff guy, he's played 75 post-season games and has 15 goals and 41 points.

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03-16-2011, 10:02 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
That's a bit silly, Saracstro. Anytime someone scores a playoff goal, does that mean they get a free pass?
For a guy touted as some sort of prime time playoff guy, he's played 75 post-season games and has 15 goals and 41 points.
Well, I posted the stats and people ignored them, so I put video evidence up to reinforce the point.

15 goals and 41 points in 75 playoff games is pretty damn good these days. .55 pts/gm

Bert - 12g 36p in 64 career playoff games - .56 pts/gm
Cleary - 18g 36p in 91 career playoff games - .40 pts/gm
Homer - 42g 88p in 164 career playoff games - .54 pts/gm
Datsyuk - 28g 76p in 110 career playoff games - .69 pts/gm

That, plus good defensive play for $3 mil a year is a good deal. You want a point per game playoff guy? Cool - you're gonna pay twice that, at least.

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03-16-2011, 10:44 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Well, I posted the stats and people ignored them, so I put video evidence up to reinforce the point.

15 goals and 41 points in 75 playoff games is pretty damn good these days. .55 pts/gm

Bert - 12g 36p in 64 career playoff games - .56 pts/gm
Cleary - 18g 36p in 91 career playoff games - .40 pts/gm
Homer - 42g 88p in 164 career playoff games - .54 pts/gm
Datsyuk - 28g 76p in 110 career playoff games - .69 pts/gm

That, plus good defensive play for $3 mil a year is a good deal. You want a point per game playoff guy? Cool - you're gonna pay twice that, at least.
GvA = Giveaways, TkA = Takeaways

2009-10 Playoffs
Bert - 6GvA, 3TkA
Cleary - 2GvA, 4TkA
Homer - 4GvA, 2TkA
Datsyuk - 7GvA, 21TkA
FILPULLA - 7GvA, 1TkA

2008-09 Playoffs
Bert - Not here
Cleary - 5Gva, 6TkA
Homer - 5GvA, 4TkA
Datsyuk - 10GvA, 20TkA
FILPPULA - 14GvA, 6TkA

Great defensively when it matters as it appears by all the giveaways and few takeways

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03-16-2011, 11:28 AM
  #71
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I've always liked Filppula. One aspect of his game that I have not seen mentioned here is that he always works hard, something that no doubt has endeared him to his coaches and teammates. He's no fighter, but I wouldn't consider him soft either. He's strong on his skates and does a good job of protecting the puck. He has good vision and keeps his head up while he plays. He hustles back when the puck goes the other way. In my opinion, Filppula does all the little things right. He just doesn't always deliver on the most visible/obvious fronts: he's not a huge scorer, he's not a huge hitter, he's not a fighter. That doesn't mean however that he's not a very good hockey player who fits well within the Detroit system.

If it weren't for the salary cap I don't think we'd be having this conversation. If we weren't so deep at center, I don't think we'd be having this conversation.

A couple of things to consider: Draper is likely to retire after this year. That will be one less center on the roster. Lidstrom may retire after this season. Its not a sure thing, but he may. If that is the case, we're going to need every penny of his salary to find as a good defenseman as we can find.

There are a couple of Wings I wouldn't mind replacing, but I won't get into that in this thread.

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03-16-2011, 12:46 PM
  #72
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Can we just wait til playoffs start? Filppula always plays good when it counts. That said his points total is a disappointment for sure. Last year was very promising, he was on pace for 55 points, which is really good considering his 2way play. I was expecting him to score 60-70 points, but things just dont seem to progress point-wise.

But I wouldnt trade Filppula, he is a redwings-type of a player that still has potential (remember he is just entering his prime) to be that 2nd line center. If traded, the return for Valtteri isnt gonna be as good as it should be. Im also quite sure that Valtteri could flourish in a another team like Leino did/does in Philly.

As I said, lets wait until playoffs...

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03-16-2011, 01:43 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangler1340 View Post
GvA = Giveaways, TkA = Takeaways

2009-10 Playoffs
Bert - 6GvA, 3TkA
Cleary - 2GvA, 4TkA
Homer - 4GvA, 2TkA
Datsyuk - 7GvA, 21TkA
FILPULLA - 7GvA, 1TkA

2008-09 Playoffs
Bert - Not here
Cleary - 5Gva, 6TkA
Homer - 5GvA, 4TkA
Datsyuk - 10GvA, 20TkA
FILPPULA - 14GvA, 6TkA

Great defensively when it matters as it appears by all the giveaways and few takeways
You're actually going to argue that Homer is better than Filppula defensively because those numbers suggest it's true?

I'm going to give you the opportunity to save face and retract that statement....


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03-16-2011, 01:46 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangler1340 View Post
GvA = Giveaways, TkA = Takeaways

2009-10 Playoffs
Bert - 6GvA, 3TkA
Cleary - 2GvA, 4TkA
Homer - 4GvA, 2TkA
Datsyuk - 7GvA, 21TkA
FILPULLA - 7GvA, 1TkA

2008-09 Playoffs
Bert - Not here
Cleary - 5Gva, 6TkA
Homer - 5GvA, 4TkA
Datsyuk - 10GvA, 20TkA
FILPPULA - 14GvA, 6TkA

Great defensively when it matters as it appears by all the giveaways and few takeways
You really think those stats mean anything when it comes to how well Flip has played defensively? The only thing you've really proven with these out-of-context stats is how much you dislike Valtteri Filppula.

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03-16-2011, 02:32 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FinProspects View Post
Can we just wait til playoffs start? Filppula always plays good when it counts. That said his points total is a disappointment for sure. Last year was very promising, he was on pace for 55 points, which is really good considering his 2way play. I was expecting him to score 60-70 points, but things just dont seem to progress point-wise.

But I wouldnt trade Filppula, he is a redwings-type of a player that still has potential (remember he is just entering his prime) to be that 2nd line center. If traded, the return for Valtteri isnt gonna be as good as it should be. Im also quite sure that Valtteri could flourish in a another team like Leino did/does in Philly.

As I said, lets wait until playoffs...
Dont worry. No one is going to be traded now. well.. more like no one can be traded now Even if Filp bombs this coming playoffs, I doubt he's shipped to somewhere for picks. He's done pretty good job for us overall.

It doesnt mean he is free from some criticisms though. Sure he's played well before, we all know that. But just because he has a track record he gets to have a free ride all the way till playoff. He hasnt made an impact for far far too long now.

It doesnt matter if Filppula scored 40 goals half way through the season, if he scores 0 goals next half of the season, he will hear about it because obviously something is VERY wrong.

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