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Your top 10 playoff performers of all-time

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Old
03-18-2011, 08:01 PM
  #76
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
What are your stats to back up that parent was always below average? I remember there was a post a few years back, which showed parent was always among the league leaders in save percentage.
We are talking playoffs here not regular season.

Outside of his 2 cup years, where he was outstanding, his line was 16-23 in the Win-Loss column which is the most important one for goalies.

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03-18-2011, 08:22 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
We are talking playoffs here not regular season.

Outside of his 2 cup years, where he was outstanding, his line was 16-23 in the Win-Loss column which is the most important one for goalies.
Win-loss is a horrible way to judge a goalie, if save percentage didnt exist, everyone would think broduer is the greatest.

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03-18-2011, 08:22 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post


EDIT: I haven't given my list, but almost needless to say (and it's pretty much unanimous here), Gretzky and Roy are at the very top. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a clear-cut number three.
I think beliveau and Richard are clearcut 3 and 4 in either order. After that, it gets much harder to determine.

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03-18-2011, 08:31 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Win-loss is a horrible way to judge a goalie, if save percentage didnt exist, everyone would think broduer is the greatest.
Look I'll agree with the Broduer example here but up to a point only. A goalies job is to stop pucks and win games a 16-23 record (on some decent teams some not so much so) is a pretty clear indication that Parent is not even a top 10 playoff goalie of all time IMO.

I'll put it more simply on how I view it, 2 great seasons do not make for an all time great for any player at any position in the playoffs all time.

For his name to even be mentioned in the top 10 all time playoff performers is simply missing the fact that the Stanley Cup has been awarded for over 120 years and there is some excellent competition for the best of all time.

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03-18-2011, 08:33 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Look I'll agree with the Broduer example here but up to a point only. A goalies job is to stop pucks and win games a 16-23 record (on some decent teams some not so much so) is a pretty clear indication that Parent is not even a top 10 playoff goalie of all time IMO.

I'll put it more simply on how I view it, 2 great seasons do not make for an all time great for any player at any position in the playoffs all time.

For his name to even be mentioned in the top 10 all time playoff performers is simply missing the fact that the Stanley Cup has been awarded for over 120 years and there is some excellent competition for the best of all time.
Who are your top playoff goalies by the way? Roy and broda are the two obvious choices, but after that the list gets slimmer. Most goalies only had 3 or 4 great runs.

Jacques plante was winning multiple games with montreal, then when he goes to new york, he starts lossing. Win/loss is a team stat.

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03-18-2011, 08:40 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Who are your top playoff goalies by the way? Roy and broda are the two obvious choices, but after that the list gets slimmer. Most goalies only had 3 or 4 great runs.

Jacques plante was winning multiple games with montreal, then when he goes to new york, he starts lossing. Win/loss is a team stat.
Off the top of my head using modern guys Dryden, Smith, Broduer, Belfour, Fuhr and Hasek.

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03-18-2011, 08:47 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Off the top of my head using modern guys Dryden, Smith, Broduer, Belfour, Fuhr and Hasek.
You can admit, that two of those guys are based on the team they played for. Although billy smith is harder to evaluate because his save percentages were unknown.

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03-18-2011, 09:01 PM
  #83
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you can say the same thing about Messier.
... and I would, although to a lesser degree since Messier did more outside of the 80s and spent less time on Gretzky's wing.

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03-18-2011, 09:08 PM
  #84
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What do you guys think of Bossy topping a list? IMO three years in a row with 17 playoff goals is one of the more insane hockey stats.

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03-18-2011, 09:30 PM
  #85
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What do you guys think of Bossy topping a list? IMO three years in a row with 17 playoff goals is one of the more insane hockey stats.
Bossy would likely be in my top 15. I just ran out of room for him in a top 10

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03-18-2011, 09:44 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I'm sorry, but that's not accurate. For one, Kurri placed behind Messier and Craig Simpson in overall scoring. He certainly didn't lead the team in Goals; Simpson had 16 and Esa Tikkanen had 13.


EDIT: I haven't given my list, but almost needless to say (and it's pretty much unanimous here), Gretzky and Roy are at the very top. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a clear-cut number three.
I loved Roy but I think he gets overhyped. Yes, he was absolutely incredible in winning two cups on Hab teams that had no business winning, but he also completely disappeared for several years in the playoffs. He was very inconsistent and the year before he won his second cup there were whispers of trading him. I don't think he warrants a number two placement.

When he was on, he was as good as anyone but he could be completely absent or as Don Cherry used to say "he looks dopey out there."

And I don't understand how Ken Dryden never comes up in these conversations. He beats one of the best teams ever assembled for his first cup (after 6 pro games.) He plays in 8 postseasons and wins 6 cups. Yes, they were powerhouse teams but notice that when he's not there in '74 they don't win and they don't win again after he leaves in '79. He was a big reason they were a powerhouse in the first place and his numbers actually are much better in many of those postseasons than they are in the regular season. (I think I probably typed this exact same post about three years ago)

How is it that this guy gets no respect?


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 03-18-2011 at 10:13 PM.
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03-18-2011, 11:14 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
You can admit, that two of those guys are based on the team they played for. Although billy smith is harder to evaluate because his save percentages were unknown.
I have no problem putting all of these guys ahead of what Parent did overall in the playoffs

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03-19-2011, 12:07 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I loved Roy but I think he gets overhyped. Yes, he was absolutely incredible in winning two cups on Hab teams that had no business winning, but he also completely disappeared for several years in the playoffs. He was very inconsistent and the year before he won his second cup there were whispers of trading him. I don't think he warrants a number two placement.
He couldn't make it to the Conference Finals every playoff in his career... just 58% of them in a 21-30 team league.

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03-19-2011, 07:54 AM
  #89
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Another name that ought to be considered but who is not mentioned above: Ted Kennedy of the Leafs. He won three retroactive Smyth awards.

http://www.hhof.com/html/newsconn.shtml#winners

Anyway, he was among those players who took his game up several notches at playoff time.

Edit: Apologies to TheDevil MadeMe. I now see he did have Kennedy on his list.


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03-20-2011, 09:16 PM
  #90
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Doug Gilmour. Dougie was unstoppable. Well he was stoppable, you just needed Gretzky to do it.

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03-21-2011, 09:59 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
He couldn't make it to the Conference Finals every playoff in his career... just 58% of them in a 21-30 team league.
I didn't say he wasn't great.

He was incredible in '86 and '93, no doubt. He also made the cup finals in '89 (he wasn't actually that great that postseason though.) In '87 Hayward played the vast majority of the games when they made it that year.

The rest of the time he was with Montreal I don't remember him being very good in the postseason. In fact he was downright horrific some of the time, esp against the Bruins. I'm telling you this off memory though, I'll check the numbers later.

Then he went to a stacked team in Colorado and played well.

Dryden (seems to) have all of the pluses that Roy has and fewer minuses. Plus he beat tougher competition in '71 (albeit with a better team.) I'm not sure how Roy makes it at number 2 and Dryden doesn't make it all on most lists.


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03-21-2011, 11:23 AM
  #92
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Yeah..and if I didnt have a luck being drafted by one of the most stacked team of all-time, I wouldnt see SC final...
That can be said about many Hall of Fame players.

Lemieux never saw a Stanley Cup Final either without Jagr, Francis, Barasso, Coffey, Recchi...

Jagr was actually a better playoff performer without Lemieux and those players.

He had the second best PPG of the Dead Puck Era in the playoffs.

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03-21-2011, 12:50 PM
  #93
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That can be said about many Hall of Fame players.

Lemieux never saw a Stanley Cup Final either without Jagr, Francis, Barasso, Coffey, Recchi...

Jagr was actually a better playoff performer without Lemieux and those players.

He had the second best PPG of the Dead Puck Era in the playoffs.
Really?

His two biggest playoff years were 91-92 with 24 points and 95-96 with 23 points. Lemieux, Coffey, Francis, and Barrasso were all there in 91-92 and Lemieux, Francis, and Barrasso were there in 95-96. Those were also his two biggest goal scoring playoff years with 11 in each. Not to mention the only time any team with Jagr on it reached a Conference Final or a Cup Final that team also had Mario Lemieux on it.


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03-21-2011, 01:13 PM
  #94
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Postseason: 129 GP - 85 G - 75 A - 160 PTS
3 Stanley Cups
1 Conn Smythe

...should get you on EVERY ****ING LIST in this thread.

It should.

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03-21-2011, 02:21 PM
  #95
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Postseason: 129 GP - 85 G - 75 A - 160 PTS
3 Stanley Cups
1 Conn Smythe

...should get you on EVERY ****ING LIST in this thread.

It should.
You mean 4 stanley cups right?

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03-21-2011, 02:30 PM
  #96
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You mean 4 stanley cups right?
lawl my bad. exactly!

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03-21-2011, 10:15 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I didn't say he wasn't great.

He was incredible in '86 and '93, no doubt. He also made the cup finals in '89 (he wasn't actually that great that postseason though.) In '87 Hayward played the vast majority of the games when they made it that year.

The rest of the time he was with Montreal I don't remember him being very good in the postseason. In fact he was downright horrific some of the time, esp against the Bruins. I'm telling you this off memory though, I'll check the numbers later.

Then he went to a stacked team in Colorado and played well.

Dryden (seems to) have all of the pluses that Roy has and fewer minuses. Plus he beat tougher competition in '71 (albeit with a better team.) I'm not sure how Roy makes it at number 2 and Dryden doesn't make it all on most lists.
Of all of the goaltenders to make the Finals in the save percentage era, Roy's 1989 was actually the third highest mark above the league-wide average (.920 in a year in which .879 was the norm). He had a so-so final three games though, but as a whole, it was remarkable, particularly considering how he only lost two games total in the first three rounds.

The only year in Montreal in which Roy's playoff was below the actual league average was 1987 (Roy swept Boston on his own; Hayward played against Quebec), so while he lost a few series to Boston otherwise, he was still playing better than most, and often times better than all.

Roy's Playoff vs. League Average

1986: .923, .874
1987: .873, .880
1988: .890, .880
1989: .920, .879
1990: .911, .881
1991: .898, .886
1992: .904, .888
1993: .929, .885
1994: .930, .895

And that's only looking at the first 70 of his 151 Wins. He kinda lapped his contemporaries while playing in Colorado, being the difference against the 1996 Red Wings (62 Wins) and 2001 Devils. There have been a lot of great goalies in the four-round era, and the #2 winningest is Martin Brodeur with 99 Wins, a whole 52 short of Roy.

Ken Dryden was great for Montreal, particularly in 1971 when he won the Conn Smythe, but there were five other Stanley Cups in which he was not considered the difference maker in the playoffs (if the Avalanche were stacked, I don't know what to call the 70s Canadiens), and that's the department by which Roy separates himself from practically everyone.

No other player since 1965 has won Conn Smythes in different decades. No other player since 1965 has won Conn Smythes on different teams. Other than Roy, Wayne Gretzky has the longest distance between Conn Smythes at just three seasons. Patrick Roy has Conn Smythes in three decades, seven years apart, eight years apart, fifteen years apart, different franchises, different Conferences, different eras. He didn't depend upon a core group of players to consistently win in order for him to collect his individual accolades in a short span of time; he was great from Year One to Year Eighteen (well... maybe Year Sixteen).

He might have played pretty well in overtime too.

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03-23-2011, 06:33 PM
  #98
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Re: Bernie Parent

Bernie Parent shouldn't be judged on his best two seasons, or by excluding his best two seasons.

Here's some goalie numbers I checked, just for fun. I had wanted a 60 game cutoff, but Broda + Durnan would be out.

Top 40 Goalies, Career GVT/Games played (min 40 GP)

Rank GVT Name GVT/G GP
1 57.5 Ken Dryden 0.504 114
2 61.7 Billy Smith 0.485 127
3 31.8 John Vanbiesbrouck 0.480 66
4 34.4 Bernie Parent 0.480 72
5 21.9 Olaf Kolzig 0.470 47
6 117.8 Patrick Roy 0.465 254
7 25.4 Ken Wregget 0.456 56
8 24.0 Jean-Sebastien Giguere 0.455 53
9 55.3 Dominik Hasek 0.453 122
10 46.9 Jacques Plante 0.426 110
11 70.0 Ed Belfour 0.422 166
12 26.9 Johnny Bower 0.371 73
13 15.7 Patrick Lalime 0.369 43
14 14.3 Cam Ward 0.354 40
15 24.7 Kirk McLean 0.354 70
16 16.9 Turk Broda 0.351 48
17 15.1 Bill Durnan 0.318 48
18 42.2 Curtis Joseph 0.312 135
19 12.7 Gilles Meloche 0.309 41
20 56.5 Martin Brodeur 0.301 187
21 22.2 Felix Potvin 0.300 74
22 15.9 Miikka Kiprusoff 0.291 55
23 21.2 Mike Richter 0.282 75
24 11.5 Ryan Miller 0.272 42
25 25.0 Tony Esposito 0.250 100
26 33.9 Grant Fuhr 0.230 147
27 10.6 Rogie Vachon 0.221 48
28 25.0 Tom Barrasso 0.216 116
29 27.0 Chris Osgood 0.212 128
30 10.1 Bill Ranford 0.195 52
31 13.9 Nikolai Khabibulin 0.192 72
32 16.6 Gerry Cheevers 0.185 90
33 12.0 Gump Worsley 0.176 68
34 10.7 Mike Liut 0.168 64
35 12.1 Harry Lumley 0.152 80
36 13.7 Ron Hextall 0.151 91
37 16.1 Glenn Hall 0.140 115
38 9.3 Evgeni Nabokov 0.130 72
39 7.1 Marc-Andre Fleury 0.125 57
40 10.7 Kelly Hrudey 0.125 86

GVT/Game is not the best stat, great players will be weighed down by games played in their post-prime years, while merely good players may be boosted by only playing prime years, etc.

Anyway, while I don't think Parent was as good as Dryden or Roy, he isn't a Wregget-like outlier either. Parent was one of the better players on the 70's Flyers, and better than a partial W/L record of 16-23 would indicate.

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03-23-2011, 06:36 PM
  #99
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Jason Spezza - Superstar! or Why 40 games is a bad cutoff

Obviously old Trottier weighs down young Trottier and old Crosby doesn't exist yet, but here are career GVT per game for the playoffs (Forwards only, min 40 games):

Rank GVT Name GVT/G GP
1 113.4 Wayne Gretzky 0.545 208
2 57.5 Mario Lemieux 0.537 107
3 29.1 Sidney Crosby 0.529 55
4 23.2 Martin St. Louis 0.516 45
5 69.9 Peter Forsberg 0.463 151
6 24.8 Evgeni Malkin 0.451 55
7 55.1 Maurice Richard 0.414 133
8 22.2 Jarome Iginla 0.411 54
9 68.8 Joe Sakic 0.400 172
10 20.9 Eric Lindros 0.394 53
11 17.2 Max Bentley 0.391 44
12 62.9 Jean Beliveau 0.388 162
13 60.4 Gordie Howe 0.385 157
14 34.8 Henrik Zetterberg 0.378 92
15 63.9 Jaromir Jagr 0.378 169
16 23.2 Brad Richards 0.368 63
17 23.5 Pavel Bure 0.367 64
18 46.7 Mike Bossy 0.362 129
19 85.0 Mark Messier 0.360 236
20 41.4 Bobby Hull 0.348 119
21 30.7 Mats Sundin 0.337 91
22 61.6 Sergei Fedorov 0.337 183
23 23.3 Johan Franzen 0.333 70
24 14.3 Eric Staal 0.333 43
25 66.5 Jari Kurri 0.333 200
26 25.8 Ted Kennedy 0.331 78
27 32.7 Steve Shutt 0.330 99
28 42.0 Guy Lafleur 0.328 128
29 17.7 Saku Koivu 0.328 54
30 45.1 Patrik Elias 0.327 138
31 65.7 Brett Hull 0.325 202
32 42.2 Phil Esposito 0.325 130
33 14.9 Jason Spezza 0.324 46
34 34.5 Daniel Alfredsson 0.322 107
35 41.8 Bernie Geoffrion 0.317 132
36 27.9 Gil Perreault 0.310 90
37 20.4 Valeri Kamensky 0.309 66
38 23.5 Theo Fleury 0.305 77
39 59.8 Steve Yzerman 0.305 196
40 44.1 Jacques Lemaire 0.304 145
41 35.0 Alexei Kovalev 0.302 116
42 54.8 Doug Gilmour 0.301 182
43 13.5 Vincent Lecavalier 0.300 45
44 50.3 Mike Modano 0.289 174
45 19.5 Daniel Briere 0.287 68
46 26.6 Cam Neely 0.286 93
47 32.6 Rick MacLeish 0.286 114
48 19.4 Elmer Lach 0.285 68
49 29.2 Kevin Stevens 0.283 103
50 41.5 Yvan Cournoyer 0.282 147
51 28.8 Marian Hossa 0.277 104
52 28.2 Pierre Turgeon 0.276 102
53 42.7 Stan Mikita 0.275 155
54 11.0 Bill Goldsworthy 0.275 40
55 33.2 Alex Delvecchio 0.274 121
56 18.3 Craig Simpson 0.273 67
57 30.8 Ken Linseman 0.273 113
58 11.9 Sid Smith 0.270 44
59 15.1 Ryan Getzlaf 0.270 56
60 24.9 Peter Stastny 0.268 93
61 12.3 Paul Kariya 0.267 46
62 31.1 Dickie Moore 0.266 117
63 44.6 Denis Savard 0.264 169
64 34.8 Ted Lindsay 0.262 133
65 42.6 Adam Oates 0.261 163
66 18.6 Jude Drouin 0.258 72
67 40.5 Mark Recchi 0.258 157
68 36.0 Steve Larmer 0.257 140
69 57.7 Glenn Anderson 0.256 225
70 23.3 Bernie Federko 0.256 91
71 26.1 Mats Naslund 0.256 102
72 30.1 Bernie Nicholls 0.255 118
73 20.9 Gregg Sheppard 0.255 82
74 33.1 Chris Drury 0.255 130
75 40.6 Brian Propp 0.254 160
76 19.9 Rod Gilbert 0.252 79
77 16.8 Martin Havlat 0.251 67
78 46.0 Brendan Shanahan 0.250 184
79 12.0 Corey Perry 0.250 48
80 11.7 Michael Nylander 0.249 47
81 10.2 Andy McDonald 0.249 41
82 38.3 Jeremy Roenick 0.249 154
83 10.4 Thomas Gradin 0.248 42
84 24.0 Dale Hawerchuk 0.247 97
85 18.8 Darryl Sittler 0.247 76
86 15.4 Rick Martin 0.244 63
87 12.2 Rene Robert 0.244 50
88 33.4 Frank Mahovlich 0.244 137
89 29.2 Scott Gomez 0.241 121
90 32.8 Bobby Clarke 0.241 136
91 27.5 Petr Sykora 0.239 115
92 21.0 Pete Mahovlich 0.239 88
93 19.3 Tim Kerr 0.238 81
94 22.3 Reggie Leach 0.237 94
95 26.5 Milan Hejduk 0.237 112
96 30.5 Bill Barber 0.236 129
97 22.8 Ken Hodge 0.235 97
98 10.1 Andrew Brunette 0.235 43
99 37.1 Joe Nieuwendyk 0.235 158
100 12.9 Sid Abel 0.235 55

Maybe 40 games was too low a cutoff for forwards too, and I should have gone for 60. I really should have looked at these before posting them...

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03-23-2011, 06:52 PM
  #100
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The top 9 gvt/game goalies all played after expansion? That tells me that it isn't helpful in evaluating pre-expansion goalies.

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