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Phoenix XXVII: Can we all get along?

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Old
03-12-2011, 03:14 PM
  #101
C77
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Well the NHL has managed to milk this baby through 70 games....People are still going to the games but it seems like the only question is when will Phoenix fans get hit by the sucker punch?

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03-12-2011, 03:22 PM
  #102
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So Scott Oake will have a report on Mark Chipman tonight on the Headliner, on CBC. Maybe, just maybe, we'll get something: new information. Because right now, eeesh. ZZzz.

@FriedgeHNIC: Scott Oake has a feature on Winnipeg and I'll post what's on After Hours when he gets out of his jammies and returns my text.

Carry on.


Last edited by RAgIn: 03-12-2011 at 05:10 PM.
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Old
03-12-2011, 03:44 PM
  #103
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[QUOTE=AllByDesign;31618409]There is a business model that can work.[\quote]

I havent seen one proposed that goes beyond "hire good management". Given there are 29 other teams trying to do the same, I don't consider that a plan, I consider it a prayer.

In a league of this size, a market has to be able to withstand a decade of suckage, or it's only a matter of time before the economic realities catch up to it. IMO Phoenix (along with a number of others) is not such a market.

Now, if you could convince the Habsburgs and Leafs to chip in a third of their local revenues for sharing with everyone else, then we might have something, but good luck with argument!

 
Old
03-12-2011, 03:51 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dronald View Post
Sorry to interrupt, but does anyone know where I can hear the interview if I wanted to listen to it now? Is it possible?
Here:
http://illegalcurve.com/wp-content/u...TER-031101.mp3

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Old
03-12-2011, 03:52 PM
  #105
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It's not as simple as eliminating all the marginal markets.
I agree. Personally I would like the free market to sort out the winners and losers on its own - small markets with great management and rabid fans should not be automatically excluded, just as markets with crap ownership should not be automatically included just because they're "big".

 
Old
03-12-2011, 04:18 PM
  #106
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Actually, those figures are pretty consistent as a range regardless of P&L. I know, I know, it seems weird to me too, but that is how it is done in that industry.
I had thought I had a few cases to show as example that had equated a lower multiplier... but seems I was wrong in every instance. There ya go..


Quote:
There is nothing wrong with the purchase price of the arena after 5 years (as determined by a fair market evaluation, up to $130M, which i expect is pretty close to the UCC at that point).
It also says "No less than $40 Million". It has given a range. I would agree that fair market would nestle in the $110 to $130 million. The range is too large by my calculations.

Quote:
The arena management fee is equal to costs expended by Hulsizer. THat is fair market value by definition
This isn't how most facility management deals work. In addition, the format to establish those costs allow for claim of Coyote expenses.

I didn't ignore the middle of your post... I just don't have any numbers on tax revenue the city currently receives on Westgate to offer an opinion for or against your assessment... so again.. there ya go..

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Old
03-12-2011, 04:23 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllByDesign View Post
I had thought I had a few cases to show as example that had equated a lower multiplier... but seems I was wrong in every instance. There ya go..




It also says "No less than $40 Million". It has given a range. I would agree that fair market would nestle in the $110 to $130 million. The range is too large by my calculations.

This isn't how most facility management deals work. In addition, the format to establish those costs allow for claim of Coyote expenses.

I didn't ignore the middle of your post... I just don't have any numbers on tax revenue the city currently receives on Westgate to offer an opinion for or against your assessment... so again.. there ya go..
Too funny the parking lot may be worth more than the arena

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Old
03-12-2011, 04:28 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
There is a business model that can work.[\quote]

I havent seen one proposed that goes beyond "hire good management". Given there are 29 other teams trying to do the same, I don't consider that a plan, I consider it a prayer.

In a league of this size, a market has to be able to withstand a decade of suckage, or it's only a matter of time before the economic realities catch up to it. IMO Phoenix (along with a number of others) is not such a market.

Now, if you could convince the Habsburgs and Leafs to chip in a third of their local revenues for sharing with everyone else, then we might have something, but good luck with argument!

"Hire good management isn't a solution".... it isn't even propper grammar.

3 Tiers....

Account Management strategy
Marketing partnership plan
Rebranding

If you want the detailed plans on those, it'll cost ya

The plan would take 5-7 years to see full return. You need an owner with deep pockets to ride out the losses.

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Old
03-12-2011, 04:36 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
I havent seen one proposed that goes beyond "hire good management". Given there are 29 other teams trying to do the same, I don't consider that a plan, I consider it a prayer.

In a league of this size, a market has to be able to withstand a decade of suckage, or it's only a matter of time before the economic realities catch up to it. IMO Phoenix (along with a number of others) is not such a market.

Now, if you could convince the Habsburgs and Leafs to chip in a third of their local revenues for sharing with everyone else, then we might have something, but good luck with argument!
They don't make revenues any more and their ancestors can't not only not use their royal titles in Austria but can't run in elections.

Now... the Windsors, Grimaldis, and Bourbons on the other hand...

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Old
03-12-2011, 04:36 PM
  #110
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We do all of those for our own businesses - however, we also actually produce great products that people actually enjoy - without that it wouldn't matter what else we do.

Rebranded **** is still Crap(tm).

 
Old
03-12-2011, 04:37 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
They don't make revenues any more...
It was a joke... Habsburgs...Habs...Les Habitant...Montreal Canadiens...

Help me out here, Killion!

 
Old
03-12-2011, 04:38 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
It was a joke... Habsburgs...Habs...Les Habitant...Montreal Canadiens...
Ah..

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Old
03-12-2011, 04:43 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeyhopeful View Post
Too funny the parking lot may be worth more than the arena
Hopefully the team can find a way to stay put. If not...



Plan B?

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Old
03-12-2011, 04:43 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllByDesign View Post
The plan would take 5-7 years to see full return. You need an owner with deep pockets to ride out the losses.
Does Hulsizer have deep pockets? I understand he's pretty rich, but I don't know if he's hemorrhaging-sports-franchise rich.

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Old
03-12-2011, 04:53 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
I agree. Personally I would like the free market to sort out the winners and losers on its own - small markets with great management and rabid fans should not be automatically excluded, just as markets with crap ownership should not be automatically included just because they're "big".
See also Green Bay Packers

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Old
03-12-2011, 05:09 PM
  #116
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That's not how promotion and relegation works. Unless the NHL innovated its own unique system, a classical 'hockey' pyramid of promotion and relegation would include eliminating the draft. In every single promotion and relegation system in the world you have somewhere between 1-4 "big" markets in BIG cities with LOTS of money dominating the league, simply because:

(1) They have the funds to create sports academies for up and coming players.
(2) They have the funds to purchase players and outbid contenders outside the 'big four' (or three or five) from lower clubs.
(3) Because they simply have a larger potential client base, more purchasing power, more revenue, etc.

In a free-market of competition I highly doubt teams in marginal, even relatively decent markets could survive. Even with incompetent management in the big clubs, if you opened the floor under struggling teams all big market management would have to do is buy them. It'd be like the late '90s/early '00s on a much bigger scale. If that still sounds appealing (and on some levels even to me it does) then my fear mongering's just that.

Personally I prefer the NFL and NHL's model of established teams in many markets for a number of reasons (historically appealing, stability is nice, knowing there's always next year). There are many other models of incentives that can be used to punish teams that year-after-year refuse to adapt or manage them poorly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
I agree. Personally I would like the free market to sort out the winners and losers on its own - small markets with great management and rabid fans should not be automatically excluded, just as markets with crap ownership should not be automatically included just because they're "big".

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Old
03-12-2011, 05:13 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Moobles;
In a free-market of competition I highly doubt teams in marginal, even relatively decent markets could survive.
Why hypothesize when there is plenty of historical record to look at? And that record shows well run medium and smallish markets "survive" just fine at the top level, while poorly run large-market teams flounder and often disappear.

As a fan of a sport, that is exactly the outcome I would want.

 
Old
03-12-2011, 05:19 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YeOldeRyaneClowe View Post
Does Hulsizer have deep pockets? I understand he's pretty rich, but I don't know if he's hemorrhaging-sports-franchise rich.
He's not hemmorhaging sports franchise rich, otherwise he would have bought the team already, rather than waiting for handouts.

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Old
03-12-2011, 05:23 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by David_99 View Post
Hopefully the team can find a way to stay put. If not...



Plan B?
The irony behind this whole thing is that employees of that arena are gonna be using jobing.com and similar other websites this summer of the team is moved elsewhere.

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Old
03-12-2011, 05:29 PM
  #120
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At 7:26, Darcy Olsen say the league would accept one of the offers from Canada.

Maybe there are 2 or more offers for the Coyotes?

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Old
03-12-2011, 05:31 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moobles View Post
That's not how promotion and relegation works. Unless the NHL innovated its own unique system, a classical 'hockey' pyramid of promotion and relegation would include eliminating the draft. In every single promotion and relegation system in the world you have somewhere between 1-4 "big" markets in BIG cities with LOTS of money dominating the league, simply because:

(1) They have the funds to create sports academies for up and coming players.
(2) They have the funds to purchase players and outbid contenders outside the 'big four' (or three or five) from lower clubs.
(3) Because they simply have a larger potential client base, more purchasing power, more revenue, etc.

In a free-market of competition I highly doubt teams in marginal, even relatively decent markets could survive. Even with incompetent management in the big clubs, if you opened the floor under struggling teams all big market management would have to do is buy them. It'd be like the late '90s/early '00s on a much bigger scale. If that still sounds appealing (and on some levels even to me it does) then my fear mongering's just that.

Personally I prefer the NFL and NHL's model of established teams in many markets for a number of reasons (historically appealing, stability is nice, knowing there's always next year). There are many other models of incentives that can be used to punish teams that year-after-year refuse to adapt or manage them poorly.
But you also have to account that pretty much any club can join a promotion/relegation league and that in those leagues, territories aren't protected. So, If I wanted to create a second coming of the Montreal Maroons, no one could prevent me to do so.

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Old
03-12-2011, 05:33 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by YeOldeRyaneClowe View Post
Does Hulsizer have deep pockets? I understand he's pretty rich, but I don't know if he's hemorrhaging-sports-franchise rich.
Worth around 300 million.

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Old
03-12-2011, 05:35 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by bleuet View Post
At 7:26, Darcy Olsen say the league would accept one of the offers from Canada.

Maybe there are 2 or more offers for the Coyotes?
Please send link. Although she likely knows nothing about any NHL deal if the Coyote deal falls apart.

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Old
03-12-2011, 05:41 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Coach View Post
Worth around 300 million.
So at losses of 40 million per, he can hangon for 7 years, cool

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Old
03-12-2011, 05:43 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleuet View Post
At 7:26, Darcy Olsen say the league would accept one of the offers from Canada.

Maybe there are 2 or more offers for the Coyotes?
Did we annex Chicago?

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