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Late Second Miracle - Kings win 3-2

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Old
03-14-2011, 06:39 PM
  #201
Chruceg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Terry Murray made a horrible decision by double shifting Smyth at the end of the third. The 3rd line should have been out there and then the Kopitar line could have been out to end the game.

Here are Smyth's final shifts:

16:20 - 17:22 (1:02)
18:32 - 19:17 <--- why was he back out in just over a minute after a one minute shift?

The 1st and 3rd lines could have easily finished up the final 2:38 of the game. 3 quick shifts by both lines would have been fine. The 2nd and 4th line are not defensive line and should never be out in the final 2 or 3 minutes of a 1 goals game. If the Kings get that empty net goal, you can put the 2nd line out to finish the game.
Where did you get those stats? I would love to check that site out.

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03-14-2011, 06:41 PM
  #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chruceg View Post
Where did you get those stats? I would love to check that site out.
NHL.com has a breakdown of the TOI shifts. They also highlight when a goal or penalty is taken on a shift.

This is the sheet from Dallas:

http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...1/TV021035.HTM

You can get there from this page by clicking on "Stats" and selecting TOI:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/boxscore.htm?id=2010021035

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03-14-2011, 06:42 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Chruceg View Post
Where did you get those stats? I would love to check that site out.
http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...1/TV021035.HTM

You can find these for any game by going into the box score of each game and then under the stats tab at the top find "TOI - Kings".

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03-14-2011, 06:48 PM
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William H Bonney View Post
http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...1/TV021035.HTM

You can find these for any game by going into the box score of each game and then under the stats tab at the top find "TOI - Kings".
I miss the old green bar charts that showed graphically who was on the ice. It was a lot easier to sift through than these sheets.

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03-14-2011, 06:51 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by santiclaws View Post
"In spite of" is the problem. I'm sick and tired of being happy just to get in to the playoffs, so while I'm happy for the regular season wins, I'm thinking about this team's possible playoff performance. I would love for them to at least get out of the first round. As I see it, lines 1, 3 and 4, the D and goaltending certainly look capable of making some noise. However, the second line's play, and Smyth's in particular, makes me think it will be an uphill struggle. Most of the rest of the team has picked up its play, while Smyth's has gone in the opposite direction. Yeah, they're winning for now despite his (and his linemates') play, but not many teams are successful in the playoffs "despite" the play of their key players. Everyone needs to pull their weight. Do you really see this team advancing if the second line is playing like it is now? Do you really Smyth's play improving in the playoffs, where checking is tighter and every mistake will be magnified?

I think Smyth is worn down from the season, and I very much doubt that a couple of days' rest will fix it. I hope I'm wrong. Unfortunately, he pulled the same disappearing act at the end of last season. No one can question Smyth's heart, but the mileage is showing and unless this situation is addressed, I think it will have a significant negative impact on the Kings' chances come playoff time.
That was no "act." That was an academy award worthy performance he made in the role of Caspar during the playoffs. Its worse now because of the bad plays he's making as well.

But I'm not going to fall in to the trap. Its a minor adjustment thats needed, not a major overhaul. If the Kings keep playing the way they have been for the last month, they are going to be dangerous in the playoffs. Its just going to be every bit as nail biting as getting there is already proving to be. (insert nail biting smilie here)

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03-14-2011, 06:52 PM
  #206
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Thanks guys! Those are great and I am definitely going to start using those.

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03-14-2011, 06:55 PM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
To me once again it boils down to poor asset management by our coach.
A bad decision for sure, trumped only by Crawford's at the end. Thanks Mark! Questionable personnel on the ice for Dallas when the Kings scored the game winner... particularly when they have the last change and could see who the Kings had out there (all fresh bodies).

The Stars color commentator made a list of transgressions: http://blog.dallasstars.com/archives/2011/03/ouch.html
  • Personnel decision following Langenbrunner’s tying goal.
  • Puck management decision by D
  • Read of play-flow by winger
  • Lack of 100% determination to block point shot
  • Rebound control by goaltender
  • Puck battle behind net
  • Puck luck
  • Late recognition of most dangerous player (the player in front of net. The guy who scored)
  • Size disadvantage in battle-zone(s)

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Old
03-14-2011, 06:59 PM
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santiclaws View Post
"In spite of" is the problem. I'm sick and tired of being happy just to get in to the playoffs, so while I'm happy for the regular season wins, I'm thinking about this team's possible playoff performance. I would love for them to at least get out of the first round. As I see it, lines 1, 3 and 4, the D and goaltending certainly look capable of making some noise. However, the second line's play, and Smyth's in particular, makes me think it will be an uphill struggle. Most of the rest of the team has picked up its play, while Smyth's has gone in the opposite direction. Yeah, they're winning for now despite his (and his linemates') play, but not many teams are successful in the playoffs "despite" the play of their key players. Everyone needs to pull their weight. Do you really see this team advancing if the second line is playing like it is now? Do you really Smyth's play improving in the playoffs, where checking is tighter and every mistake will be magnified?

I think Smyth is worn down from the season, and I very much doubt that a couple of days' rest will fix it. I hope I'm wrong. Unfortunately, he pulled the same disappearing act at the end of last season. No one can question Smyth's heart, but the mileage is showing and unless this situation is addressed, I think it will have a significant negative impact on the Kings' chances come playoff time.
Your sarcasm detector isn't working. I said "in spite of" in jest. There are 18 skaters on a team. Assuming one guy is going to nullify the efforts of 17 others is a stretch in my opinion. Sure individuals can make costly mistakes but Smyth's performance in the playoffs last year didn't cost them the series nor will it this year. It was a series of breakdowns throughout the team. In my opinion, the only position on the ice surface that has the ability to drastically swing a game in one direction or the other is the goaltender.

I can't believe we are looking for scapegoats as to why the Kings didn't advance in the playoffs or their inevitable collapse when the season hasn't even ended and the team is still on a run. God damn you guys are a tough crowd.

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Old
03-14-2011, 07:00 PM
  #209
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Yes yes yes I am certain we can have fun extolling the virtues of Crawford and Murray.

Comparing them is like comparing which is worse, vomiting or a good old bout of diarrhea, both serve their purpose and can even provide a certain amount of relief but in the end....


TM has finally found his equal or, even debatable his lesser?


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03-14-2011, 07:00 PM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chruceg View Post
Thanks guys! Those are great and I am definitely going to start using those.
Great, just what we need, more stats!

I actually heard a great analogy on NHL radio the other day about the use of statictics to evaluate players. Its was along the lines of this:

You should only use stats like a drunk uses a lamp-post: for support, but not for illumination.

I think thats right on the money!


Quote:
Originally Posted by TonySCV View Post
A bad decision for sure, trumped only by Crawford's at the end. Thanks Mark!

Questionable personnel on the ice for Dallas when the Kings scored the game winner... particularly when they have the last change and could see who the Kings had out there (all fresh bodies).

The Stars color commentator made a list of transgressions: http://blog.dallasstars.com/archives/2011/03/ouch.html
  • Personnel decision following Langenbrunner’s tying goal.
  • Puck management decision by D
  • Read of play-flow by winger
  • Lack of 100% determination to block point shot
  • Rebound control by goaltender
  • Puck battle behind net
  • Puck luck
  • Late recognition of most dangerous player (the player in front of net. The guy who scored)
  • Size disadvantage in battle-zone(s)
I think Dallas' commentators are right at the top in the league. This proves that.

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Old
03-14-2011, 07:01 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
But as I said in my post as long as we are in the playoff picture we are by definition going to be able to compete or contend for the cup so I would continue to call us contenders. That said I think the underlying issue is that while as of today we are considered contenders the mere fact that we are 4 points either way from top to bottom makes us less of a certainty and more as being in the same boat as 5 other teams in our division.

To my way of thinking we aren't going to be a true contender for the cup until we are consistently one of the top 4 or 5 teams in the league. So that is where the split in definition becomes the issue to me. One way of defining the term is to say that as long as we are in the playoffs we are contenders.

Another way of seeing it is by asking if we are considered a favorite to win the cup as of today and if the answer is no then we simply aren't legitimately capable of being considered to be contenders just yet.
It seems to me like you are contradicting yourself there. So are only the favorites to win the cup the 'contenders', or are the favorites the 'true contenders'. Either way, which one are the Kings?

If you went back to the pre-season, there was a lot of talk about the Kings being a dark horse contender for the cup. That's obviously not the same as saying they are the favorites, which I would have limited to teams like the Flyers, Detroit, Vancouver, San Jose and Penguins before the season started.

If the experts label our team as a dark horse in the pre-season, then I would think that we are considered a 'true contender'.

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03-14-2011, 07:02 PM
  #212
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03-14-2011, 07:12 PM
  #213
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Humm, I am not certain how I can rephrase what I have written to explain my position any better. It's my failing by the way that I can't because I can't even begin to see where I have contradicted myself.

I do say that there are many ways of defining the term and that I was only referring to two of them.

"So, like I said in my my post as long as we are in the playoff picture we are by definition going to be able to compete or contend for the cup so I would continue to call us contenders". To me that says exactly where I see the Kings as of today. We are as of today in possession of a playoff position and as long as we are we will be able to contend for the cup.

The problem is that the term "Cup Contenders' lends itself to being interpreted in many different ways.

Is the last place team in either conference expected to compete for the cup as of today when compared to the top two teams? So what I am saying is that the term has more than one way of being interpreted and in that there is room for people to see things in many different ways.

So as I said, we hold a playoff position today so we will if everything remains the same be able to compete for the cup making us a contender.

But I would in no way call us a favorite at this point making giving us an outside chance at contending for the cup unless things continue to improve, which is possible.

So it isn't that I am contradicting myself, only pointing out that the term "cup contender" has more than one definition and in that there is room for several opinions.

I hope that helps.

I suppose you could add words to the phrase and eliminate confusion. We could say "favorites to win the cup" or something along those lines but then that is a different thing.

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03-14-2011, 07:13 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
Your sarcasm detector isn't working. I said "in spite of" in jest. There are 18 skaters on a team. Assuming one guy is going to nullify the efforts of 17 others is a stretch in my opinion. Sure individuals can make costly mistakes but Smyth's performance in the playoffs last year didn't cost them the series nor will it this year. It was a series of breakdowns throughout the team. In my opinion, the only position on the ice surface that has the ability to drastically swing a game in one direction or the other is the goaltender.

I can't believe we are looking for scapegoats as to why the Kings didn't advance in the playoffs or their inevitable collapse when the season hasn't even ended and the team is still on a run. God damn you guys are a tough crowd.
Well, I'm not being sarcastic when I say they're winning "in spite of" Smyth, so you can see how I missed yours. When the player who is not pulling his weight plays on the second line, his bad play is considerably more noticeable than if he was playing on the third or fourth line. I'm not saying that the team cannot win with Smyth in the lineup, but if he is not making a positive contribution to winning, he is slowing the team down. In the playoffs, the difference between advancing or not can be razor-thin, sometimes just one play. Dallas' first goal last night was the direct result of a bad play by Smyth. He's made a bunch of bad plays lately and it has cost the team goals, or opportunities to score goals. Would you feel a similar lack of concern if our second line left wing was Westgarth? Because Smyth is not really outplaying him right now.

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03-14-2011, 07:14 PM
  #215
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Oh and I would add that at the start of the season, aren't all teams then considered equally to be cup contenders?

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03-14-2011, 07:26 PM
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santiclaws View Post
Well, I'm not being sarcastic when I say they're winning "in spite of" Smyth, so you can see how I missed yours. When the player who is not pulling his weight plays on the second line, his bad play is considerably more noticeable than if he was playing on the third or fourth line. I'm not saying that the team cannot win with Smyth in the lineup, but if he is not making a positive contribution to winning, he is slowing the team down. In the playoffs, the difference between advancing or not can be razor-thin, sometimes just one play. Dallas' first goal last night was the direct result of a bad play by Smyth. He's made a bunch of bad plays lately and it has cost the team goals, or opportunities to score goals. Would you feel a similar lack of concern if our second line left wing was Westgarth? Because Smyth is not really outplaying him right now.
You guys must have missed where I have reitirated that Smyth isn't playing well. We are all on the same page there. I recognize that Smyth's errors contributed to the loss against Dallas a week ago. However, it was Drew Doughty that flubbed the puck trying to be cute on a powerplay during the most critical point in the game when the Kings were up a goal. Smyth's error(s) aren't even a factor in that game if our Norris candidate defenseman doesn't make that mistake. That is my point.

Smyth's minutes should be curtailed until he finds his game like any other player but you are talking about the Terry Murray system of accountability. You don't need to be Red Berenson to acknowledge his playing has slid downhill. People can denegrade Smyth all they want, we all recognize his decline in play but we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation without his 20 goals and play through the earlier part in the season.

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03-14-2011, 07:31 PM
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Oh and I would add that at the start of the season, aren't all teams then considered equally to be cup contenders?
I was going to mention that, but I found it too trivial of a label and nobody really believes it. Did anyone consider the Isles to be contending for the Cup, much less close to a playoff spot heading into the season? Of course, it works both ways. Who would have predicted the turn the Avs have taken?

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03-14-2011, 07:38 PM
  #218
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The reason Smyth was on the ice for that shift was because the shift started with a defensive zone faceoff didnt it??

So the 2nd line went out with Stoll to take the draw, probably with the intention of getting to the bench asap for the top or 3rd line to play the final minute, they just failed to clear the puck for the 45 seconds

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03-14-2011, 07:41 PM
  #219
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I am so sick of people here overreacting every time a player goes into a slump. Smyth has 20 goals and his line carried the team for a significant chunk of the season. Now he isn't a legitimate NHL forward and should be benched.

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03-14-2011, 07:52 PM
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sw1tch View Post
The reason Smyth was on the ice for that shift was because the shift started with a defensive zone faceoff didnt it??

So the 2nd line went out with Stoll to take the draw, probably with the intention of getting to the bench asap for the top or 3rd line to play the final minute, they just failed to clear the puck for the 45 seconds
Then you send out Stoll with Handzus and Poni/Simmonds or Stoll with Kopitar and Williams/Penner. Stoll changes when the puck is cleared.

Murray also had a timeout to use if everyone was tired.

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03-14-2011, 07:54 PM
  #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sw1tch View Post
The reason Smyth was on the ice for that shift was because the shift started with a defensive zone faceoff didnt it??

So the 2nd line went out with Stoll to take the draw, probably with the intention of getting to the bench asap for the top or 3rd line to play the final minute, they just failed to clear the puck for the 45 seconds
Well, the usual MO for getting Stoll out there to take the defensive zone draw is just have him out there in place of one of the wingers on the line. Then you have a 2nd center out there just in case Stoll gets tossed out of the faceoff circle. Then after you clear the zone, Stoll gets off the ice and the winger comes one to skate his normal shift with his line.

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03-14-2011, 07:54 PM
  #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quattro View Post
I am so sick of people here overreacting every time a player goes into a slump. Smyth has 20 goals and his line carried the team for a significant chunk of the season. Now he isn't a legitimate NHL forward and should be benched.
Handzus spent some time on the 4th line when he went into a slump. Nothing wrong with putting Smyth with Lewis and Richardson for a couple of games. Put Clifford with Stoll and Brown and let him be the first player on the forecheck.

I don't remember you crying when Handzus was "demoted". Did you claim that Murray was overreacting?

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03-14-2011, 08:00 PM
  #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quattro View Post
I am so sick of people here overreacting every time a player goes into a slump. Smyth has 20 goals and his line carried the team for a significant chunk of the season. Now he isn't a legitimate NHL forward and should be benched.
People are realizing he's tired and are talking about it. There's nothing wrong with that and it certainly isn't overreaction. His ice time is being reduced - there's debate over if it should be cut more and people have widely varying thoughts on the matter.

The concern is he is repeating a "slump" he had at this time last year. It's a valid concern. That said, I remember how huge that goal of his was in game 3 of the playoffs last season. He can be clutch. He just needs some rest.

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03-14-2011, 08:06 PM
  #224
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Ah, now this feels more like a PGT.

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03-14-2011, 08:10 PM
  #225
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Nothing quite like arguing over who was least responsible for the win!

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