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Old
03-14-2011, 12:57 AM
  #1
ghjkfdhgfd
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Team Toughness

With Boogey and Scott leaving last year. How do you think it affected our team in the Aggressive Dept. Personally I like Staubitz a bit, but after watching him get his ass kicked by a 19 year old rookie, I was just in shame. It seems like the wild get pushed around a lot, Staubitz scares no one, and after what happened to Clutterbuck and Gillies, I knew eventually Cal would piss the wrong guy off, he does hit a lot, but he can't defend himself. Thinking about this also reminded me how much I hate Steve Ott too . Maybe Kassian next season would be a better replacement, he is decent for his size(6'5 230). Hell while in Calgary Nystrom was more aggressive(fought more also) and he got more points. Is Richards system to be weak and pushed around. Im sick of it man! I wanna win games and kick ass. Any thoughts?

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03-14-2011, 03:48 AM
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BigT2002
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It sounds like you want fighting more than you want wins. You don't need "roughers" to win games. You need finese and players who don't give up on games even when they are down by 1,2,3,or 4 goals. I'm glad Boogaard and Scott are gone. They didn't contribute anything but taking 5 minute Majors and 2 minute Minors because of the reputation before the game even started with most of the refs in the league. With the talks that the GM meeting is going to be focusing more on concussions again this year, expect those type of players to really get weeded out even more.

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03-14-2011, 05:35 AM
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WildisLaw
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Too many soft players on this team. What happened to the character in these past 2 brutal loses? This team played right with Detroit without Koivu. Veterans playing like rookies with brutal mental errors leading to blowouts. I don't understand it. How do you go from around .500 hockey without your captain to these embarassing past 2 games? It looks like preseason out there all of the sudden.

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03-14-2011, 08:28 AM
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llamapalooza
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A tougher team wouldn't have prevented Clutter's concussion. If a 10-game suspension wasn't enough to deter Gillies, then I don't see why an enforcer would. Guy's just bat**** crazy.

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03-14-2011, 08:33 AM
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I thought the guys played tougher this year than the past two years. I don't like "enforcers".

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03-14-2011, 08:41 AM
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nickschultzfan
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The problem is lack of toughness in the top lines, not the bottom.

Bouchard, Havlat, Miettinen, Brunette, and Cullen, and even Koivu some games don't even lay a single hit.

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03-14-2011, 08:43 AM
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But those guys aren't getting shoved around or cheap shotted. There's a difference between aggressive physical play and just being tough players, both physically and mentally. Being tough means going to the dirty areas of the ice, taking a hit to make a play, showing up every night. Of our top six, the only guy who really got cheap shotted this year was Miettinen, and Brown got tossed for it.

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03-14-2011, 11:55 AM
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bozak911
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Well, Clutterbuck got cheapshotted...

My counter argument would be:

Did having Boogaard and Scott in the line up prevent Gonchar from head hunting Clutterbuck?

Did having Boogaard and Scott in the line up prevent Bouchard from getting smashed?

No.

I don't disagree that the team would be better with Kassian over Staubitz, but...

Having goons doesn't = better win % or "safer" skill players.

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03-14-2011, 01:43 PM
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El Nino22
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I would say i don't miss Scott or Boogaard. They don't help our team. I do miss guys standing up for each other though and guys trying to fire the team up by fighting. For example we lose two games 4-0, no one is pissed, no one tries to get the boys going we just start playing half hearted and give up. And the Gillies and Miettnen cheap shots..on no other team would the guy who did that get to the bench without a fight. I understand yeah we got a power play and we don't want to give that up, but how demoralizing for the guy who got hit. He just got a cheap shot and no one did anything cuz we got a PP. I think it brings the team closer having guys defend and stick up for each other.

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03-14-2011, 02:23 PM
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BigT2002
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Is there an enforcer on Detroit? Do their players consistently get into fights to "vindicate" a questionable hit on their players? What I thought. Hindsight is always 20/20 when it comes to actually comparing with teams who have a history of good athletic play and find ways to win games, even when star players like Zetterberg, Franzen, Howard, Datsuyk, or even Kronwall or Lidstrom are out of the lineup. The reason is that is a team which doesn't give up in games and play smart hockey. When was the last time you saw any of those players skating down ice in the efforts to give a big hit or make up for a dirty play against their own??

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03-14-2011, 02:50 PM
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nickschultzfan
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I also don't miss Boogy or Scott.

Just teach Gillies to throw down and put him in the weight room. Again. And feed him 15 peanut butter sandwiches a day.

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03-14-2011, 03:17 PM
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bozak911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
I also don't miss Boogy or Scott.

Just teach Gillies to throw down and put him in the weight room. Again. And feed him 15 peanut butter sandwiches a day.
So you are advocating turning our first round selection, which we traded up a couple of spots to nab, into a goon?

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03-14-2011, 03:37 PM
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El Nino22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT2002 View Post
Is there an enforcer on Detroit? Do their players consistently get into fights to "vindicate" a questionable hit on their players? What I thought. Hindsight is always 20/20 when it comes to actually comparing with teams who have a history of good athletic play and find ways to win games, even when star players like Zetterberg, Franzen, Howard, Datsuyk, or even Kronwall or Lidstrom are out of the lineup. The reason is that is a team which doesn't give up in games and play smart hockey. When was the last time you saw any of those players skating down ice in the efforts to give a big hit or make up for a dirty play against their own??
No Detroit doesn't have an enforcer and im not calling for an enforcer. Im saying guys standing up for themselves and each other. Also just a last year Detroit had Brad May and before that Aaron Downey so they have had guys who are "enforcers". This year much like us, Detroit has more of a team toughness feel they have Abdelkader and Ericsson and Stuart even guys like Janik, Helm, Holmstrom, Franzen, Cleary, Eaves, Miller and Bertuzzi. Also Detroit doesn't need to fight because they are winning and they have so much skill on that team that they can play their game. Our team doesn't have that skill. We need to play gritty and tough. Having 1 guy who throws a lot of hits and then another guy who plays 7 mins a night fight every once in awhile isn't a very tough team to play against.

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03-14-2011, 03:38 PM
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nickschultzfan
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Originally Posted by bozak911 View Post
So you are advocating turning our first round selection, which we traded up a couple of spots to nab, into a goon?
I'm advocating for the Wild to maximize ever asset it owns, regardless of what it gave up to get that asset.

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03-14-2011, 03:45 PM
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rynryn
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if you have a bunch of softer, less skilled players like we did last year then a goon might actually embolden those guys to play bigger and harder. We went and picked up a few guys who aren't all that great fighting/intimidating but who as a group are a huge upgrade in the run-of-the-mill whole-game toughness department instead. They are in no way comparable to boogaard/scott in intimidation, but over the course of a game they're more effective as a group and are capable of physically wearing down another team a lot more than what we were fielding last year. Even Madden, for godsake. Our top six is still missing any sort of physicality with Latendresse healing/out, but our bottom six is physical enough to make up for the loss of Boogaard. Scott on our backend...considering Stoner is a huge step up in actually playing a defensive role and can still chuck the fists if needed I don't see how anyone can complain. There's durability issues, but then look where boogaard is and if we gave Scott Stoner's minutes I don't doubt for a second he'd have ugly +/- and most probably be injured.

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03-14-2011, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
I'm advocating for the Wild to maximize ever asset it owns, regardless of what it gave up to get that asset.
i don't think we turn him into a goon, but i suggest we re-purpose him much as Calgary did with Nystrom. Just realize he'll never be a goal scorer and have him focus on the sandpaper game.

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03-14-2011, 04:06 PM
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nickschultzfan
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Yeah, I was just thinking about a 6'4", 230 pound guy with blazing speed who just hits and fights everything, and maybe puts in 20 points a year on the bottom lines.

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03-14-2011, 05:03 PM
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We need a guy like Shawn Thornton or Brandon Prust, they can play and they can fight, but we don't. With 10 secs in the game agianst Colorado, the Avs sent out all the tough guys to mess with our players, McLeod went after Zids, and no one did anything. Are you ****ing kidding me. Im not saying we should make a blood bath every game, but come on grow some balls! Does anyone even watch Detroit games? They get pushed around year round! They have better players and no toughness, but they win. We are mediocre with Staubitz, and we lose. Im not saying we should have a goon, but someone needs to send a psychical message to the other team.

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Old
03-14-2011, 05:27 PM
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rynryn
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ha. i liked the guy the Rags picked for that type but they picked him way too early. He could end up an all around beast on the back end--McIlrath.

Zach Kassian could be the guy for Buffalo, too.

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03-14-2011, 06:14 PM
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Jarick
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If our success/failure depended on "team toughness", what changed to take the team from 5th at the trade deadline to 12th or wherever we are now? Which tough guy did we lose?

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03-14-2011, 06:30 PM
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El Nino22
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
If our success/failure depended on "team toughness", what changed to take the team from 5th at the trade deadline to 12th or wherever we are now? Which tough guy did we lose?
we lost the leading hitter in the NHL and a big physical #1 center. Toughness isn't all about fighting. Its hitting and playing hard, going into the dirty areas and crashing the crease.

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03-14-2011, 07:13 PM
  #22
Casper
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Originally Posted by GetCluttered View Post
we lost the leading hitter in the NHL and a big physical #1 center. Toughness isn't all about fighting. Its hitting and playing hard, going into the dirty areas and crashing the crease.
Don't forget we don't have our one power forward to crash the crease...

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03-14-2011, 07:31 PM
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El Nino22
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Yeah Lats hurts a ton, but i didn't count him because he has been gone all year pretty much.

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03-14-2011, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by GetCluttered View Post
Yeah Lats hurts a ton, but i didn't count him because he has been gone all year pretty much.
The only reason I do mention him is because he is on the roster and taking salary and a spot. when he plays (or rather played) we are tougher around the net.

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03-14-2011, 08:11 PM
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El Nino22
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That is very true. I really miss those thundering hits he throws along the boards

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