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What is going on with Hudler? Also, miscellany.

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Old
03-17-2011, 03:30 AM
  #1
HockeyinHD
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What is going on with Hudler? Also, miscellany.

Right around the 8 game point is where we start these threads, right? Franzen got his at game 9, and Z's started up around that time too. With Hudler's it's a bit more obvious... but let's be fair and at least have the thread up.

A few random observations on the past month or so, Hudler-related and not.

-The teams defense looks better when Hudler's not playing much.
-The teams offense looks a whole lot smoother when Rafalski is.
-You know Lidstrom's going to win the Norris this year, right? Wow. Just... wow.
-Since the All-Star game Howard's looks like a better goalie. Knock on wood.
-Over the past three full seasons the vast majority of 65+ point forwards (90%... scorers of which there have been fewer than 50 in the whole league in each of the past three years and only 42 last season) get there by having 20+ of them come from the PP. Fil's never had more than 8. Opportunity? Production? Food for thought.
-Has anyone done more to erase previous misconceptions about his preferences than Mike Babcock has this year? Wasn't this the stubborn coach who stuck with lines and didn't make changes? He's completely blown up his defensive pairings, he's used a Bowman-esque number of forward combos over the past three or so months, and he's also going with home-road lineups? Hey now.
-Good God, reading Bettman's quotes about the Phoenix situation actually elicits a physical sense of revulsion. That guy is slimy, yo. Where's his 2 am commercial soliciting legal clients? 1-888-Bettman. Call now! He has the hair already.
-Hey, thanks for joining the rest of the fans of the NHL in being aware that, yes, occasionally players get hurt out on the ice, Habs fans. It would have been nicer to hear the concern in your voice while you were putting Bryan bleeping Marchment out there every night... but better late than never, amirite? (Sigh. Homers.)
-Along those lines, Mario Lemieux actually has a non-pansy idea for dealing with dangerous dirty hits: fine the franchises. I like that. I'd like it more if the NHL had a commissioner and league disciplinarian who weren't biased, incompetent, and generally clueless... but it'd be a start. Would Detroit get fined for wins in this system? Perhaps. Against Pittsburgh? Absolutely.

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03-17-2011, 10:14 AM
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Right around the 8 game point is where we start these threads, right? Franzen got his at game 9, and Z's started up around that time too. With Hudler's it's a bit more obvious... but let's be fair and at least have the thread up.

A few random observations on the past month or so, Hudler-related and not.

-The teams defense looks better when Hudler's not playing much.**
Holmstrom sucks defensively and is worse offensively and worse in the neutral zone. So how could this be?

-The teams offense looks a whole lot smoother when Rafalski is.

Flawski had a nice game last night, but I chortled when Redmond raved about his great slap pass to Flip. Oh Yeah.Flawski wound up and shot a slapshot of the defenseman's skate right to Hudler -- By DESIGN!!!. LOL@Mickey.

Quote:
-You know Lidstrom's going to win the Norris this year, right? Wow. Just... wow.
I think Weber deserves it.
But there's a good chance Nick wins it. It's refreshing to see all these new names in the top 10 defensive scoring. But the truth is, with a rep trophy like the Norris (no trophy in hockey is more a "rep" trophy than the Norris), that really bodes well for Lidstrom's chances to win the Norris.
But IMO, Weber is the best defenseman in the game right now.


Quote:
-Since the All-Star game Howard's looks like a better goalie. Knock on wood.
If his play was any worse that it was before the break, Detroit would be in serious trouble right now.

Quote:
-Over the past three full seasons the vast majority of 65+ point forwards (90%... scorers of which there have been fewer than 50 in the whole league in each of the past three years and only 42 last season) get there by having 20+ of them come from the PP. Fil's never had more than 8. Opportunity? Production? Food for thought.
More PP time would surely help Flip's production. But his game lacks "direction" you want on the PP.

Quote:
-Has anyone done more to erase previous misconceptions about his preferences than Mike Babcock has this year? Wasn't this the stubborn coach who stuck with lines and didn't make changes? He's completely blown up his defensive pairings, he's used a Bowman-esque number of forward combos over the past three or so months, and he's also going with home-road lineups? Hey now.
LOL. There are no misconceptions about it. it took the dude 5 years to give Hudler a shot with Datsyuk. And it paid off. So how does he reward Hudler? By demoting him to the 4th line and giving his IT to a guy who has done absolutely nothing for nearly 40 games, and who continues to do nothing with it.


Quote:
-Good God, reading Bettman's quotes about the Phoenix situation actually elicits a physical sense of revulsion. That guy is slimy, yo. Where's his 2 am commercial soliciting legal clients? 1-888-Bettman. Call now! He has the hair already.
It's an interesting case, for sure. I actually support the principles of the Goldwater group in this case, as I don't think taxpayers should be funding private enterprise. But realistically, it's being done almost everywhere.
Bettman ripped teams out of Quebec and Winnipeg without blinking. And now, all these years later, he's fighting tooth and nail to keep those teams there.

Quote:
-Hey, thanks for joining the rest of the fans of the NHL in being aware that, yes, occasionally players get hurt out on the ice, Habs fans. It would have been nicer to hear the concern in your voice while you were putting Bryan bleeping Marchment out there every night... but better late than never, amirite? (Sigh. Homers.)
Newsflash. Hometeam fans are hypocrites.

Quote:
-Along those lines, Mario Lemieux actually has a non-pansy idea for dealing with dangerous dirty hits: fine the franchises. I like that. I'd like it more if the NHL had a commissioner and league disciplinarian who weren't biased, incompetent, and generally clueless... but it'd be a start. Would Detroit get fined for wins in this system? Perhaps. Against Pittsburgh? Absolutely.
The day hockey becomes about as physical as soccer or basketball will be here within 20 years.

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03-17-2011, 11:00 AM
  #3
HockeyinHD
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Flawski had a nice game last night,
Sigh.

Re Weber for the Norris: The numbers aren't there. 8th in points and 35th in +/- on a team unlikely to finish any better than 6th in the Conference and may finish as low as 10th isn't enough, I don't think.

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More PP time would surely help Flip's production. But his game lacks "direction" you want on the PP.
What does that mean?

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LOL. There are no misconceptions about it. it took the dude 5 years to give Hudler a shot with Datsyuk. And it paid off. So how does he reward Hudler? By demoting him to the 4th line and giving his IT to a guy who has done absolutely nothing for nearly 40 games, and who continues to do nothing with it.
1)Hudler played with Datsyuk significantly in 2007-8 and didn't do anything with it.

2)That said, is the idea that he should produce more with Datsyuk somehow startling? I don't think Hudler was 'kept off' a line with Datsyuk because the coaches didn't think he'd score more with Datsyuk than without Datsyuk, do you?

3) Hudler got bumped off the line because a) he hadn't produced in 5 or 6 games and if he's not scoring he's hurting you and b) the other forwards that have been ahead of him all year were coming back and/or getting healthier. Are you suggesting that the team just bury Holmstrom instead and not even try to get him any kind of chemistry back in the top 6 for the remainder of the season?

Quote:
It's an interesting case, for sure. I actually support the principles of the Goldwater group in this case, as I don't think taxpayers should be funding private enterprise. But realistically, it's being done almost everywhere.
Bettman ripped teams out of Quebec and Winnipeg without blinking. And now, all these years later, he's fighting tooth and nail to keep those teams there.
I think like many things in government it was being done until people started to get wise to the shamockery. Deadspin's publishing of those Florida Marlins documents opened quite a few eyes, I would imagine. And if that didn't the staggering amount of debt being tossed around in Phoenix certainly should have.

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The day hockey becomes about as physical as soccer or basketball will be here within 20 years.
I don't think it's quite that bad. IMO what we'll see is a fairly radical improvement in equipment before that ever happened. When there are literally billions of dollars at stake people can get incredibly inventive.

It might look like a mushroom, but if it will save those golden gooses people will get used to the idea.

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03-17-2011, 11:05 AM
  #4
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Sigh.


3) Hudler got bumped off the line because a) he hadn't produced in 5 or 6 games and if he's not scoring he's hurting you and b) the other forwards that have been ahead of him all year were coming back and/or getting healthier. Are you suggesting that the team just bury Holmstrom instead and not even try to get him any kind of chemistry back in the top 6 for the remainder of the season?
I would bury Holmstrom. He does not do much besides screen. He is slow, loses the puck easily and does not produce. I guess the question is ... how important is his screening to the success of the team???

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03-17-2011, 11:42 AM
  #5
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Originally Posted by korrowan View Post
I would bury Holmstrom. He does not do much besides screen. He is slow, loses the puck easily and does not produce. I guess the question is ... how important is his screening to the success of the team???
Holmstrom causes many issues for the other team. As slow as the guy is, the other team still accounts for him.

As for Hudler? Not sure. I'd like to see him take shifts with Datsyuk but in the playoffs I don't know if I like the idea of him on the 1st line getting 16 mins/game. He definitely has played his best with Datsyuk, but so do most players. And as for all of the talk of 'demotion' 'rewarded' 'earned', it's all fluff.

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03-17-2011, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Sigh.

Re Weber for the Norris: The numbers aren't there. 8th in points and 35th in +/- on a team unlikely to finish any better than 6th in the Conference and may finish as low as 10th isn't enough, I don't think.



What does that mean?



1)Hudler played with Datsyuk significantly in 2007-8 and didn't do anything with it.

2)That said, is the idea that he should produce more with Datsyuk somehow startling? I don't think Hudler was 'kept off' a line with Datsyuk because the coaches didn't think he'd score more with Datsyuk than without Datsyuk, do you?

3) Hudler got bumped off the line because a) he hadn't produced in 5 or 6 games and if he's not scoring he's hurting you and b) the other forwards that have been ahead of him all year were coming back and/or getting healthier. Are you suggesting that the team just bury Holmstrom instead and not even try to get him any kind of chemistry back in the top 6 for the remainder of the season?



I think like many things in government it was being done until people started to get wise to the shamockery. Deadspin's publishing of those Florida Marlins documents opened quite a few eyes, I would imagine. And if that didn't the staggering amount of debt being tossed around in Phoenix certainly should have.



I don't think it's quite that bad. IMO what we'll see is a fairly radical improvement in equipment before that ever happened. When there are literally billions of dollars at stake people can get incredibly inventive.

It might look like a mushroom, but if it will save those golden gooses people will get used to the idea.
What? Did he turn into a defensive sieve all of a sudden? Duh he's not going to cover point men like the speedier guys will but he can still muck with other players in the defensive zone and poke the puck along outside our zone. Which he does. For someone that's not scoring, his +/- hasn't moved at all for someone that's "hurting" the team. And his slump started along with the whole team. Did anyone actually look good during the 4 game slump?

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03-17-2011, 11:58 AM
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Hudler sits out tonights game against the BJ's

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03-17-2011, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindfly View Post
Hudler sits out tonights game against the BJ's
http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index....l_tonight.html

Hudler is sick.

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Old
03-17-2011, 12:14 PM
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HockeyinHD
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What? Did he turn into a defensive sieve all of a sudden?
Not really. Hudler's been a below-average defensive player for most of his career, if not all of it.

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Duh he's not going to cover point men like the speedier guys will but he can still muck with other players in the defensive zone and poke the puck along outside our zone. Which he does.
So are you making the case Hudler's an average defender? Better than?

In other words, I'm not sure how this notion that Hudler engages in basic hockey plays now and then is necessarily relevant to a discussion of his overall defensive play. I mean, I've seen Draper roof a slap shot in a game before too... this doesn't mean it's a behavior we should expect to see repeated too often.

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For someone that's not scoring, his +/- hasn't moved at all for someone that's "hurting" the team.
Datsyuk's been pretty hot over the past 10, right? 5 goals, 4 assists... and a -2. Do you think having Hudler as a linemate has contributed to a net minus even though he's been offensively productive? Do you think it's a coincidence that Datsyuk has 5 points in the last three games since having Hudler pulled off his line?

Seems like a lot of coincidences.

I don't think it's terribly surprising that Hudler's production has gone up since being put on a line with a player like Datsyuk. The question people should be asking is: what is Hudler doing that creates this increased production, and could the team get as much or more of an increase in production from other roster options without having to suffer Hudler's drawbacks?

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03-17-2011, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Sigh.

Re Weber for the Norris: The numbers aren't there. 8th in points and 35th in +/- on a team unlikely to finish any better than 6th in the Conference and may finish as low as 10th isn't enough, I don't think.
Doesn't change the fact that he's the best defenseman in hockey, in my opinion.
Lidstrom's defensive game has fallen noticeably this year. Weber had a tough start has rebounded.



Quote:
What does that mean?
Flip's game lacks direction. He's kind skating through the motions. He's skating around a lot of stuff, but he needs to aim himself at the opponents net. If ever did that, he could be a 20-25goal guy with 60-65 points.
In Datsyuk we a change in his offensive game where went from a guy who almost refused to shoot at anything except an open net to the player he his now.


Quote:
1)Hudler played with Datsyuk significantly in 2007-8 and didn't do anything with it.

2)That said, is the idea that he should produce more with Datsyuk somehow startling? I don't think Hudler was 'kept off' a line with Datsyuk because the coaches didn't think he'd score more with Datsyuk than without Datsyuk, do you?

3) Hudler got bumped off the line because a) he hadn't produced in 5 or 6 games and if he's not scoring he's hurting you and b) the other forwards that have been ahead of him all year were coming back and/or getting healthier. Are you suggesting that the team just bury Holmstrom instead and not even try to get him any kind of chemistry back in the top 6 for the remainder of the season?
Seemed to me Like Hudler had maybe a scoreless game and maybe another scoreless period in another game when the change took place and Babcock broke up the Datsyuk-Hudler-Cleary line.

I haven't seen chemistry ever between Holmstrom and Datsyuk. I saw that flicker with Zetterberg. And I saw that continue without Datsyuk on the line, when it was Z-Franzen-Holmstrom.

And a) when Holmstrom isn't scoring, he's hurting you. He's a giveaway machine in neutral ice. Teams can run a trap and force the pass to homer and watch him cough it up.
Teams work to hard in their end and along the boards to waste their shifts regrouping after bad turnovers or to constantly have their shifts interrupted with offsides faceoffs.


Quote:
I don't think it's quite that bad. IMO what we'll see is a fairly radical improvement in equipment before that ever happened. When there are literally billions of dollars at stake people can get incredibly inventive.
Legal liability has transformed society, and I'm not sure whether all the engineering in the world will change the way media-intensive organizations like the NHL cower from threats of lawsuits and public relations nightmares.

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03-17-2011, 12:46 PM
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Hudler is sick.
on hfboards you have to support this sentence with a youtube video of a sick move by hudler.

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03-17-2011, 12:53 PM
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In the past ten games (Starting with the loss to Dallas ending with Wash win)

Hudler: -2, 0, +1, 0, -1, +1, 0, 0, 0, 0 (-1 over past 10)
Datsyuk: -1, -1, 0, 0, -2, -1, -1, +2, +1, -1 (-4 over past 10)

I find it interesting that Hudler's +/- wasn't as bad as Dats over the past 10 games and I'm curious how many of those -'s came from late game defensive play were Hudler was benched. I don't think Dats play really has much to do with Hudler. His two game changing goals came largely off of individual plays. In contrast I think Hudler's offensive dangerousness increases quite a bit by playing with Dats.

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03-17-2011, 12:54 PM
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Holmstrom causes many issues for the other team. As slow as the guy is, the other team still accounts for him.

As for Hudler? Not sure. I'd like to see him take shifts with Datsyuk but in the playoffs I don't know if I like the idea of him on the 1st line getting 16 mins/game. He definitely has played his best with Datsyuk, but so do most players. And as for all of the talk of 'demotion' 'rewarded' 'earned', it's all fluff.
It's March 17th.
Holmstrom has not score an even-strength since Dec. 11.

3 Months. 33 Games. Zero Even-Strength Goals.

I've seen people try to make the case that Homer is better in the top 6 than Bertuzzi. PP aside, it's ludicrous. Bertuzzi has 32-even-strength point compared to 12 for Holmstrom
Jonathan Ericsson has more even-strength points than Holmstrom. Drew Miller has more even-strength points than Holmstrom. Kris Draper has one less point, an assist, than Holmstrom, despite playing just 2/3rds of the games.

At even strength, given the linemates he's had for nearly the entire season, you couldn't do much worse than Holmstrom.

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03-17-2011, 02:35 PM
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1)Hudler played with Datsyuk significantly in 2007-8 and didn't do anything with it.
What, in EA Sports NHL 08?

Maybe i'm losing my mind, but i'm calling b.s. on that statement.

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03-17-2011, 03:21 PM
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What, in EA Sports NHL 08?

Maybe i'm losing my mind, but i'm calling b.s. on that statement.
I don't recall much in that regard, either.

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03-17-2011, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Not really. Hudler's been a below-average defensive player for most of his career, if not all of it.



So are you making the case Hudler's an average defender? Better than?

In other words, I'm not sure how this notion that Hudler engages in basic hockey plays now and then is necessarily relevant to a discussion of his overall defensive play. I mean, I've seen Draper roof a slap shot in a game before too... this doesn't mean it's a behavior we should expect to see repeated too often.



Datsyuk's been pretty hot over the past 10, right? 5 goals, 4 assists... and a -2. Do you think having Hudler as a linemate has contributed to a net minus even though he's been offensively productive? Do you think it's a coincidence that Datsyuk has 5 points in the last three games since having Hudler pulled off his line?

Seems like a lot of coincidences.

I don't think it's terribly surprising that Hudler's production has gone up since being put on a line with a player like Datsyuk. The question people should be asking is: what is Hudler doing that creates this increased production, and could the team get as much or more of an increase in production from other roster options without having to suffer Hudler's drawbacks?


I'm saying that Hudler hasn't been "bad". You make it sound like he's a detriment when he's a nonfactor at worst.

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03-17-2011, 04:22 PM
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I think Weber deserves it.
But there's a good chance Nick wins it. It's refreshing to see all these new names in the top 10 defensive scoring. But the truth is, with a rep trophy like the Norris (no trophy in hockey is more a "rep" trophy than the Norris), that really bodes well for Lidstrom's chances to win the Norris.
But IMO, Weber is the best defenseman in the game right now.
The only guy right now besides Captain Lidstrom who might have an outside shot, might be Big Hungry Dustin, chances are #5 wins it again

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03-17-2011, 04:24 PM
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I think it's Lidstrom then Yandle. Weber was too bad for too long this year to get more consideration. His game relies heavily on Suter.

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03-17-2011, 04:27 PM
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It's March 17th.
Holmstrom has not score an even-strength since Dec. 11.

3 Months. 33 Games. Zero Even-Strength Goals.

I've seen people try to make the case that Homer is better in the top 6 than Bertuzzi. PP aside, it's ludicrous. Bertuzzi has 32-even-strength point compared to 12 for Holmstrom
Jonathan Ericsson has more even-strength points than Holmstrom. Drew Miller has more even-strength points than Holmstrom. Kris Draper has one less point, an assist, than Holmstrom, despite playing just 2/3rds of the games.

At even strength, given the linemates he's had for nearly the entire season, you couldn't do much worse than Holmstrom.
torpedo of truth.

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03-17-2011, 04:49 PM
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I think it's Lidstrom then Yandle. Weber was too bad for too long this year to get more consideration. His game relies heavily on Suter.
Letang should probably be in the discussion as well.

If we are going to invoke Yandle, why not mention Lubomir Visnovsky as well? Both are #1 guys on middling teams who carry the puck and skate well, are putting up huge points, barely kill penalties, and have an ok +/-.

One guy who kept sticking out to me as I perused different defensemen metrics was Christian Ehrhoff. Seems he has really made an impact as a #1 guy since Edler went down. He probably hasn't done enough to merit being a finalist, but he's certainly made a case. Oh yeah, and he's a UFA this year.

Is Buttfuglien really still being mentioned as a candidate? Like Mike Green in previous season, maybe if he actually played defense he could be considered. But he doesn't. So he can't. I'd sooner nominate Enstrom.

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03-17-2011, 04:53 PM
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The only guy right now besides Captain Lidstrom who might have an outside shot, might be Big Hungry Dustin, chances are #5 wins it again
Dustin has no chance whatsoever. It's between Lidstrom, Yandle and probably Visnovsky. They all deserve a shout, especially Yandle, but I think Lidstrom should take it. The things he's doing at 40 years old is unbelievable.

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03-17-2011, 05:26 PM
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Letang is ahead of Yandle and Visnovsky, imo. Letang is shorter on points, but is a regular PKer while the other two are not. And he's more physical and effective in his own zone in general.

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03-17-2011, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
1)Hudler played with Datsyuk significantly in 2007-8 and didn't do anything with it.
That actually isn't true. That season Datsyuk mostly played with Zetterberg. But there was probably a period of 10-15 games when they were split up.

Babcock rolled:

Filppula - Datsyuk - Holmstrom

Holmstrom got injured so Babcock thew Dan Clearly in his place.


But I just wanted to say that I believe Holmstrom has easily been the weakest link on our team this season. I also think Hudler is worhtless playing in the bottom six, as he has shown this season. I feel like Holmstrom should be playing 4th line ES minutes, and his normal PP time, if anything at all.

We have another year with Holmstrom, I wonder how his ailing legs will hold up after another post-season.

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03-17-2011, 05:44 PM
  #24
TheOtherOne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
3) Hudler got bumped off the line because a) he hadn't produced in 5 or 6 games and if he's not scoring he's hurting you and b) the other forwards that have been ahead of him all year were coming back and/or getting healthier. Are you suggesting that the team just bury Holmstrom instead and not even try to get him any kind of chemistry back in the top 6 for the remainder of the season?
Was it 5 or 6 games? I'm remembering 1 or maybe 2 games. I'm remembering a ridiculous point per game streak that started before he got placed on Datsyuk's line, followed by a game or two in which the entire team slumped, followed by Hudler the playmaker on a lane with Nohands and Nohands Jr. You are absolutely right that when he's not scoring he's hurting you. And when he was with Datsyuk he was scoring at a 3rd-best-Red-Wing pace. What are we expecting to see from him on the 4th line? Use that beautiful pass to set up Draper in the slot?

I say if Babcock really hates him so much that he's not gonna get past the 4th line, he might as well replace him with Mursak. But I don't see any reason for Holmstrom to be in, or hell even Bertuzzi or Franzen for that matter, when Hudler is on top of his game.

What the hell, if our top 6 is so crucial, let's let MikeyMo watch from home and see what Happy can do with Flip and Abby. But playing him on an energy line with 2 guys who aren't supposed to score goals is utterly pointless.

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Old
03-17-2011, 05:57 PM
  #25
RedMenace
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Oh look, it's the same old HD anti-Hudler rhetoric that he continues to vehemently deny...

... I mean, ****, you didn't even give him his own thread like the other guys you mentioned. Had to lump him in with other issues you wanted to bring up. No respect, I tell ya.


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