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Jaques Martin: Coaching discussion

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Old
03-30-2011, 12:27 AM
  #301
Forsead
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Originally Posted by Rgolt View Post
yes i know hes doing quite well
he was also doing quite well while playing under Atlantas offensive system. hence the 15 years 6.66/year contract

ntm hes back to playing how he was at the beginning of the season with only 2 points in his past 10 games or so. Actually, so are all of the Devils, i wonder how much of an impact the Arnott trade has made
Well IMO they were riding on the adrenaline of a playoff hope, when this has finished well right now they are a team without any goal. I think they will finish the season strong tho, they will want to eliminate other team now.

Anyway my argument was more that even a purely offensive star can work in a defensive system.

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03-30-2011, 12:34 AM
  #302
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Well IMO they were riding on the adrenaline of a playoff hope, when this has finished well right now they are a team without any goal. I think they will finish the season strong tho, they will want to eliminate other team now.

Anyway my argument was more that even a purely offensive star can work in a defensive system.
Bingo, "star"
i dont think we have any player who fits in to that category. Kovalchuk can play for any team and any coach (besides Maclean ) and still thrive. Cammy and Gomez maybe not as much.
But given the choice would u rather see Kovaluchuk play for a defensive system or offensive system. Obviously you would choose offensive because thats where he succeeds, which is what im trying to say,
Therefore when Gainey got guys like Cammy and Gomez he maybe shouldve taken another look for a coach with an offensive system thats suits these guys well. Or if Gainey was set on Martin, perhaps keeping Higgins, Komi, Kosto, and Koivu who could thrive in a defensive system would be better (while obviously going out and getting a couple other people)

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03-30-2011, 01:41 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Yeah, like I said, have nothing against French people. I am MOVING to Montreal from Vancouver for christ sakes.

Stop being so sensitive.
I have nothing against the rest of your posts except for all the generalizations you make. You keep saying "you Habs fans think you deserve it all" and calling Habs fans the most "demanding and selfish fans in the league" as if other fanbases don't want the exact same thing as them. Not only that, but I find generalizing a fanbase as large as the Habs', arguably the largest in the league, just makes no sense at all. It has its proportionate share of crazy-to-savvy fans as every other fanbase. I don't know how many times people have to repeat the old "we have the same amount of crazy fans as everyone else, we just have a larger fanbase which means there are more of them than other fanbases" line...

You also take shots at a whole population of French people saying that they feel like they "are entitled to everything in the world" and add the "no offence" to that? Really? I'm a pure Anglophone from the West-Island but if I were French I would find that offending how you base your perceptions of an entire population due to subjective stereotypes you've built up for yourself. It's very immature to almost insult a race of people and then when they complain about your criticism and insults you call them "sensitive".


I'm done my rant for the day. Sorry if I seem angry, I just get so fed up of generalizations and stereotypes sometimes although I'm sure you didn't mean it that way if you're moving INTO this hellhole
Peace and love hombre

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Old
03-30-2011, 09:45 PM
  #304
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Hmmmm.... Jaques wtf?!?! Carolina???really dude . Damn

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03-30-2011, 09:48 PM
  #305
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I think it is becoming more and more evident, his players are tired.

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03-30-2011, 09:48 PM
  #306
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I don't want to be in the bandwagon to fire JM, but I'm wondering, after tonight game, if Gauthier will make a move or not.

Last game, vs. Atlanta, wasn't that good. Yes, we won, but we didn't play like we could play.

IMO, it's been 6-7 games in a row that Habs players are simply not mentally there. I really think it's a matter of coaching change right now to put this team on the track...

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03-30-2011, 09:53 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by sakukoivu2003 View Post
I don't want to be in the bandwagon to fire JM, but I'm wondering, after tonight game, if Gauthier will make a move or not.

Last game, vs. Atlanta, wasn't that good. Yes, we won, but we didn't play like we could play.

IMO, it's been 6-7 games in a row that Habs players are simply not mentally there. I really think it's a matter of coaching change right now to put this team on the track...
Goat won't fire his buddy,it will have to come from above.And Molson isn't eating 2 years of it. I wish he was fired last week,so we could see what Muller could do

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03-30-2011, 09:59 PM
  #308
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Goat won't fire his buddy,it will have to come from above.And Molson isn't eating 2 years of it. I wish he was fired last week,so we could see what Muller could do
Installing Muller as a head coach would be setting him up for failure. He's been Martin's right hand man for the past year. He's been Martin's yes man to the players.

Players are going to associate Martin with Muller.

If he wants to introduce a totally new system with Martin, what does that say about Muller? It says he isn't man enough to say to Martin, this is wrong, so I will sit back and implement your system that isn't working.

Look at the other assistant head coaches that got promoted to head coach. It didn't work out.

Its why it was made clear to the players when Claude Julien that Carbonneau was going to be the next head coach and that Gainey was just there for a transition period, Carbs wasn't an assistant coach for a reason.

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03-30-2011, 10:04 PM
  #309
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Installing Muller as a head coach would be setting him up for failure. He's been Martin's right hand man for the past year. He's been Martin's yes man to the players.

Players are going to associate Martin with Muller.

If he wants to introduce a totally new system with Martin, what does that say about Muller? It says he isn't man enough to say to Martin, this is wrong, so I will sit back and implement your system that isn't working.

Look at the other assistant head coaches that got promoted to head coach. It didn't work out.

Its why it was made clear to the players when Claude Julien that Carbonneau was going to be the next head coach and that Gainey was just there for a transition period, Carbs wasn't an assistant coach for a reason.
Carbo was an asst. in Dallas,he got a raw deal here.I'd much rather have him than this fossil behind the bench.We were much more entertaining. When Carbo was the coach we led the league in goals, and was #1 seed,but was too small too advance past the Flyers after a grueling 7 game series w/the inferior but much more physical B's. And didn't NJ fire Julien in the last week or two and win the cup /

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03-30-2011, 10:06 PM
  #310
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I think it is becoming more and more evident, his players are tired.
I'm willing to bet that DD, Pouliot, White, Eller, Weber, Pyatt and Auld aren't tired.

That's because JM forgets that you are allowed to play more than 2.5 lines in a game.

The lack of trust this man has for much of the roster is ridiculous.

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03-30-2011, 10:06 PM
  #311
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The players are just burned. Overused because of injuries. Played too many nights with 3 lines because of the injuries. The defensive corps is done. Too slow too old. The speedy guys are injured. Weber is probably not as good as Sopel since he's in the stands (!).

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03-30-2011, 10:06 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Installing Muller as a head coach would be setting him up for failure. He's been Martin's right hand man for the past year. He's been Martin's yes man to the players.

Players are going to associate Martin with Muller.

If he wants to introduce a totally new system with Martin, what does that say about Muller? It says he isn't man enough to say to Martin, this is wrong, so I will sit back and implement your system that isn't working.

Look at the other assistant head coaches that got promoted to head coach. It didn't work out.

Its why it was made clear to the players when Claude Julien that Carbonneau was going to be the next head coach and that Gainey was just there for a transition period, Carbs wasn't an assistant coach for a reason.
I have to disagree. Muller is different from Martin. Muller is the guy with passion, willing to win and showing it, who will encourage the players etc...

Martin is more the technical guy, doesn't talk a lot.

Both have their pros and cons, but right now, with the kind of team we have (Gomez, Gionta, Cammy = all guys with character), we need a guy like Muller who will bring this intensity to the players.

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03-30-2011, 10:06 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Installing Muller as a head coach would be setting him up for failure. He's been Martin's right hand man for the past year. He's been Martin's yes man to the players.

Players are going to associate Martin with Muller.

If he wants to introduce a totally new system with Martin, what does that say about Muller? It says he isn't man enough to say to Martin, this is wrong, so I will sit back and implement your system that isn't working.

Look at the other assistant head coaches that got promoted to head coach. It didn't work out.

Its why it was made clear to the players when Claude Julien that Carbonneau was going to be the next head coach and that Gainey was just there for a transition period, Carbs wasn't an assistant coach for a reason.
I think you do insert him as coach, but you bring in Muller type of players. That way the system works as your going to get some half decent sized guys and guys who will play both ends and go to the dirty spots.

Time to get rid of the softies in Pouliot, and smaller guys like Pyatt...and Gomez, he can't be traded...minors. And hate to say it, but Cammalleri is tradable still...and Leafs would take him. Send hi there, he isn't going to haunt us as he isn't a difference maker, LA saw it and so did Calgary. Trade him to the Leafs who want top 6 help, and he is a hometown boy. Get something of size and significance from the Leafs, or some top picks. Takes away some cap space and small players.

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03-30-2011, 10:21 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by prairie hab View Post
I'm willing to bet that DD, Pouliot, White, Eller, Weber, Pyatt and Auld aren't tired.

That's because JM forgets that you are allowed to play more than 2.5 lines in a game.

The lack of trust this man has for much of the roster is ridiculous.
Trust and respect is a two way street. If a coach trusts his players, then he earns their respect and they will go to battle for him and the team.

Without that trust from a coach, you have a team that does not respect the coach. Happens in all sports in all levels.

Jacques Martin has completely demoralized this team. There is very little trust or respect from anyone in the Habs organization right now.

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03-30-2011, 10:31 PM
  #315
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Trust and respect is a two way street. If a coach trusts his players, then he earns their respect and they will go to battle for him and the team.

Without that trust from a coach, you have a team that does not respect the coach. Happens in all sports in all levels.

Jacques Martin has completely demoralized this team. There is very little trust or respect from anyone in the Habs organization right now.
Trust and respect is a 2 way contract

Coach must respect the team
but the team must respect the coach too

Cammaleri Scores and JM sends DD/Pouliot/White line. JM trusted this line.
They managed to fail.

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03-30-2011, 10:33 PM
  #316
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I think you do insert him as coach, but you bring in Muller type of players. That way the system works as your going to get some half decent sized guys and guys who will play both ends and go to the dirty spots.

Time to get rid of the softies in Pouliot, and smaller guys like Pyatt...and Gomez, he can't be traded...minors. And hate to say it, but Cammalleri is tradable still...and Leafs would take him. Send hi there, he isn't going to haunt us as he isn't a difference maker, LA saw it and so did Calgary. Trade him to the Leafs who want top 6 help, and he is a hometown boy. Get something of size and significance from the Leafs, or some top picks. Takes away some cap space and small players.
Halpern,Gill and Spacek can be added to that list.

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03-30-2011, 10:37 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by prairie hab View Post
I'm willing to bet that DD, Pouliot, White, Eller, Weber, Pyatt and Auld aren't tired.

That's because JM forgets that you are allowed to play more than 2.5 lines in a game.

The lack of trust this man has for much of the roster is ridiculous.
You can find it ridiculous or not, but it doesn't mean it would change anything.

DD has been getting plenty of minutes, I don't know why you think he isn't getting good ice time.
Pouliot and Eller have cost us goals on more than just a couple occasions in our zone.

I would have made Auld start tonight. We have no necessity in winning games at the moment. We would have to pretty much lose every game left while the Canes win almost all of theirs in order to miss the POs. That won't happen. So, we'll likely finish somewhere between 6th-8th.
So, no point in making Price play back to back games.

I agree though, I don't agree with Martin benching youngsters, but as I said, that doesn't mean we'd be any better today.

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03-31-2011, 11:14 AM
  #318
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Hey Martin, stick to what works!

Am I the only one who is really getting tired of Martin alway splitting up lines or combos that are working great?

-He broke the ATM line at the beggining of the season for no reason.
-He's forcing Hamrlik to play on the 1st pp wave when it hasn't worked at all ofr the majority of the season.
-Keeps splitting Subban and Wiz who are dynamite together.
-Keeps braking the Kostitsyn-Eller-Moen who perform well together even though none of them are top line playersH insists to keep splitting them as if they have talent right now jumpstart any other line.

I'm sure there's more but that freacking mentality is destroying the team.

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03-31-2011, 11:48 AM
  #319
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Am I the only one who is really getting tired of Martin alway splitting up lines or combos that are working great?

-He broke the ATM line at the beggining of the season for no reason.
-He's forcing Hamrlik to play on the 1st pp wave when it hasn't worked at all ofr the majority of the season.
-Keeps splitting Subban and Wiz who are dynamite together.
-Keeps braking the Kostitsyn-Eller-Moen who perform well together even though none of them are top line playersH insists to keep splitting them as if they have talent right now jumpstart any other line.

I'm sure there's more but that freacking mentality is destroying the team.

Nope,



Your not alone..Gainey would have fired him already. The vets are not performing at anywhere near potential and are hurting the team. If the coach can not get his top players to play like top players than the coach has to go..


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03-31-2011, 12:51 PM
  #320
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I have nothing against the rest of your posts except for all the generalizations you make. You keep saying "you Habs fans think you deserve it all" and calling Habs fans the most "demanding and selfish fans in the league" as if other fanbases don't want the exact same thing as them. Not only that, but I find generalizing a fanbase as large as the Habs', arguably the largest in the league, just makes no sense at all. It has its proportionate share of crazy-to-savvy fans as every other fanbase. I don't know how many times people have to repeat the old "we have the same amount of crazy fans as everyone else, we just have a larger fanbase which means there are more of them than other fanbases" line...

You also take shots at a whole population of French people saying that they feel like they "are entitled to everything in the world" and add the "no offence" to that? Really? I'm a pure Anglophone from the West-Island but if I were French I would find that offending how you base your perceptions of an entire population due to subjective stereotypes you've built up for yourself. It's very immature to almost insult a race of people and then when they complain about your criticism and insults you call them "sensitive".


I'm done my rant for the day. Sorry if I seem angry, I just get so fed up of generalizations and stereotypes sometimes although I'm sure you didn't mean it that way if you're moving INTO this hellhole
Peace and love hombre
don't worry , he's young , he'll learn you can't take shots at group of people saying ''no offense'' , either you take shots and surf your wave or you just keep it to yourself.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 03-31-2011 at 12:59 PM.
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03-31-2011, 12:55 PM
  #321
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Am I the only one who is really getting tired of Martin alway splitting up lines or combos that are working great?

-He broke the ATM line at the beggining of the season for no reason.
-He's forcing Hamrlik to play on the 1st pp wave when it hasn't worked at all ofr the majority of the season.
-Keeps splitting Subban and Wiz who are dynamite together.
-Keeps braking the Kostitsyn-Eller-Moen who perform well together even though none of them are top line playersH insists to keep splitting them as if they have talent right now jumpstart any other line.

I'm sure there's more but that freacking mentality is destroying the team.
1. He was right to do so. At the time, we only had one line working. You cant win for an extended period of time that way, so he had to change, be pro-active. Otherwise, he would have been critisized for being too passive.

2 and 3. They're connected. If you play Subban and Wisniewski together, how are you gonna fill the 2nd wave ? Asking Hamrlik to QB it ? With Subban or Wisniewski alongside him, you're taking a bit of pressure out of him, thats a good move. And thats could also be considered as a reward for Subban.

4. He's not trying to brake them, but more to get the (supposed) better lines going.
You are not likely to win without a good performance from Plekanec AND Gomez. So you have to push them, find a way to help them to play well. Its understandable. Im not saying this is a good or bad move, just that its understandable, and it make sense, especially after last years' playoffs.

Though, i could also say that this 3rd line could be a nice "secret" coming into playoffs, because if the two first lines neutralize themselves with the opponents' best lines, that 3rd one could be the one who put you in front. But obviously, its better to find a way to make the first two lines better without asking for help coming with the 3rd.


Dont forget that we had the exact same slump last year. 9 points in the last 10 games, and very "average" performances...i believe they're resting and forgetting that we still have a regular season to complete.

For the ones who talk about promoting Muller, thats not a good idea.
Promoting an assistant as the head-coach, totally changes the relationship between him and the players, and its very hard to change the "behaviour" between them because of the history.
I could also bet that in 18 months, the same ppl will be crying because he's unexperienced, etc...you cant underestimate the experience of Martin. Thats a huge plus, especially after having so many rookie coaches.

Dont you realize that the bashing around the Habs is almost entirely centralized towards...Martin ? He's like a lightning rod.


And Martin is fine anyway, because we have a defensive-minded team before having a defensive-minded coach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rgolt View Post
Bingo, "star"
i dont think we have any player who fits in to that category. Kovalchuk can play for any team and any coach (besides Maclean ) and still thrive. Cammy and Gomez maybe not as much.
But given the choice would u rather see Kovaluchuk play for a defensive system or offensive system. Obviously you would choose offensive because thats where he succeeds, which is what im trying to say,
Therefore when Gainey got guys like Cammy and Gomez he maybe shouldve taken another look for a coach with an offensive system thats suits these guys well. Or if Gainey was set on Martin, perhaps keeping Higgins, Komi, Kosto, and Koivu who could thrive in a defensive system would be better (while obviously going out and getting a couple other people)
Seriously ?

Plekanec : Probably in TOP-10 for a Selke.
Gionta : Plays on the PK on a consistent basis, very responsable defensively.
Gomez : Like Gionta. And like him, he played for the Devils and Renney, so saying that he needs an offensive system to perform is not really appropriate, to say the least.
Cammalleri : Thats the exception of the team, the only true offensive player. He play sometimes on the PK though, he's not totally putrid defensively.

Thats your 4 highest-paid forwards, and key-players for the forwards. Most of them are truely two-way players, that just shows you how having a "defensive" minded coach make sense.

The only debatable decision he use to made is about benching the young players. But again, its an understandable one, as he dont want to give them too much too easily. They have to earn the icetime, they have to catch it. In a market like Montreal, its probably a good thing.

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03-31-2011, 02:41 PM
  #322
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1. He was right to do so. At the time, we only had one line working. You cant win for an extended period of time that way, so he had to change, be pro-active. Otherwise, he would have been critisized for being too passive.

2 and 3. They're connected. If you play Subban and Wisniewski together, how are you gonna fill the 2nd wave ? Asking Hamrlik to QB it ? With Subban or Wisniewski alongside him, you're taking a bit of pressure out of him, thats a good move. And thats could also be considered as a reward for Subban.

4. He's not trying to brake them, but more to get the (supposed) better lines going.
You are not likely to win without a good performance from Plekanec AND Gomez. So you have to push them, find a way to help them to play well. Its understandable. Im not saying this is a good or bad move, just that its understandable, and it make sense, especially after last years' playoffs.

Though, i could also say that this 3rd line could be a nice "secret" coming into playoffs, because if the two first lines neutralize themselves with the opponents' best lines, that 3rd one could be the one who put you in front. But obviously, its better to find a way to make the first two lines better without asking for help coming with the 3rd.


Dont forget that we had the exact same slump last year. 9 points in the last 10 games, and very "average" performances...i believe they're resting and forgetting that we still have a regular season to complete.

For the ones who talk about promoting Muller, thats not a good idea.
Promoting an assistant as the head-coach, totally changes the relationship between him and the players, and its very hard to change the "behaviour" between them because of the history.
I could also bet that in 18 months, the same ppl will be crying because he's unexperienced, etc...you cant underestimate the experience of Martin. Thats a huge plus, especially after having so many rookie coaches.

Dont you realize that the bashing around the Habs is almost entirely centralized towards...Martin ? He's like a lightning rod.


And Martin is fine anyway, because we have a defensive-minded team before having a defensive-minded coach.



Seriously ?

Plekanec : Probably in TOP-10 for a Selke.
Gionta : Plays on the PK on a consistent basis, very responsable defensively.
Gomez : Like Gionta. And like him, he played for the Devils and Renney, so saying that he needs an offensive system to perform is not really appropriate, to say the least.
Cammalleri : Thats the exception of the team, the only true offensive player. He play sometimes on the PK though, he's not totally putrid defensively.

Thats your 4 highest-paid forwards, and key-players for the forwards. Most of them are truely two-way players, that just shows you how having a "defensive" minded coach make sense.

The only debatable decision he use to made is about benching the young players. But again, its an understandable one, as he dont want to give them too much too easily. They have to earn the icetime, they have to catch it. In a market like Montreal, its probably a good thing.
That is the most absurd and backward thinking that I have ever seen on a sports message board.

So if Montreal had Stamkos playing for us, Martin should bench him? So should Skinner be glued to the Hurricanes bench as well?

Wow.

The only way a young player can develop into a great player is to get ice time and work through the mistakes and failings that a young player will make. To bench them for every mistake that they make is to take away their self-confidence.

Pouliot is a great example. He is a goal scorer with a great shot who performed well when he was getting 15+ minutes per game. But once he entered the Martin doghouse, his game has collapsed. He is so tense and uptight that he cannot perform to his talent level. Why???? Because he is so scared to make a mistake that will bench him that he ends up making mistakes.

Pressure to perform is needed. Relentless and overbearing pressure on any player will cause them to wilt. They may be professionals but they are also human as well.

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Old
03-31-2011, 03:00 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
That is the most absurd and backward thinking that I have ever seen on a sports message board.

So if Montreal had Stamkos playing for us, Martin should bench him? So should Skinner be glued to the Hurricanes bench as well?

Wow.

The only way a young player can develop into a great player is to get ice time and work through the mistakes and failings that a young player will make. To bench them for every mistake that they make is to take away their self-confidence.

Pouliot is a great example. He is a goal scorer with a great shot who performed well when he was getting 15+ minutes per game. But once he entered the Martin doghouse, his game has collapsed. He is so tense and uptight that he cannot perform to his talent level. Why???? Because he is so scared to make a mistake that will bench him that he ends up making mistakes.

Pressure to perform is needed. Relentless and overbearing pressure on any player will cause them to wilt. They may be professionals but they are also human as well.
perfectly said
same thing with Eller, he has been playing great the past 2-3 weeks, but he has one game and he gets bench a few minutes in to the 2nd period.
Eller has been playing much better than Gomez, but if Gomez made a mistake whether just 1 or 10, he would still get 18 mins a game, the 2nd Eller makes a mistake hes benched or demoted. which i really disagree with

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Old
03-31-2011, 03:02 PM
  #324
HCH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
Seriously ?

Plekanec : Probably in TOP-10 for a Selke.
Gionta : Plays on the PK on a consistent basis, very responsable defensively.
Gomez : Like Gionta. And like him, he played for the Devils and Renney, so saying that he needs an offensive system to perform is not really appropriate, to say the least.
Cammalleri : Thats the exception of the team, the only true offensive player. He play sometimes on the PK though, he's not totally putrid defensively.

Thats your 4 highest-paid forwards, and key-players for the forwards. Most of them are truely two-way players, that just shows you how having a "defensive" minded coach make sense.

The only debatable decision he use to made is about benching the young players. But again, its an understandable one, as he dont want to give them too much too easily. They have to earn the icetime, they have to catch it. In a market like Montreal, its probably a good thing.
You must be watching different games than I am if you think Gomez is defensively responsible. He needs to put up points to be of any value to this team because his defensive play just doesn't cut it.

Of course, he doesn't get benched after 4 minutes of ice time for his constant defensive gaffes. Instead he is given MORE ice time to work out his problems... at the expense of having younger players develop. That isn't Gomez's fault... it's Martin's.

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Old
03-31-2011, 03:09 PM
  #325
guest1467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimCareyPrice View Post
False. Without Halak's historic performance Cammalleri's playoffs end with a forgettable 2 goals.
Funny thing is when people to point to that amazing game 6 by Halak, I should tell them to watch the first period. In the 1st, we played one of the most flawless periods of hockey I have ever seen, perfect defense, great breakouts and good chances for. We put Halak in a position to win every game, and he pulled through for us, its a two way street.

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