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Phoenix XXIX: What's the next act? I'm tired of the dog & pony show

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03-21-2011, 12:20 AM
  #251
surge1979
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I agree, but this situation is anything but usual. You have a league stepping in and overpaying for the team, then being forced (by BoG) recoup every penny of that. So in essence, they have to sell a $110 million team for $170 million. I think that is why you see such a strange approach to the financing.
I agree. The NHL wants to protect franchise values and their investment, basically on the backs of Glendale taxpayers in return for the benefit of keeping the team in Glendale.An asset that loses $15 - 40 million every year is worth less than zero. In fact, the market rate for the Coyotes in Glendale is actually -27 million ($170 million purchase price less $197 million in incentives/financing/subsidies.)

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03-21-2011, 12:22 AM
  #252
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The Hulsizer interview was disingeuous, to say the least:

So, you're going to ask Glendale to take out $100 million in bonds (which they hand to you) for which they will pay anywhere between $150 and $200 million over the life of the deal, including interest. If it isn't paid back, you will guarantee $75 million of it. So instead of it being a $150 or $200 million risk to taxpayers, its now only $75 to $125 swing for taxpayers? So now the "gift" is still a gift, but less of one.
Bang on. Hulsizer is trying to make it seem like the deal is one for one. But the city has to buy bonds which it has to pay interest on it.

Unless the deal is substantially different that this, GWI will not back down.

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03-21-2011, 12:27 AM
  #253
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Winnipeg, I hope you get a hockey team, just not my local hockey team.

Give the Yotes 5 years of stable management/winning and see what happens. If hockey is still failing here, I will be ready to accept the fact that hockey in Arizona will not work. Up to this point however, I don't think hockey in Arizona has gotten a fair shot.

The back and forth between Canadians and Arizonas in this thread is downright silly. I am sure the people of Winnipeg felt terrible when their team left but they have seemed to forget that feeling and continue to rip Coyote fans. Canadians, we do want your snowbird dollars and recognize hockey is your game more than ours........however there are fans here, just like north of the border.

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03-21-2011, 12:30 AM
  #254
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Video is up on the Coyotes website. MH was speaking in the context of moving the deal forward, and Walsh asked if it was a falling on the sword of sorts. MH said "those are your words, but I think we've done what we needed to do to move the deal forward."

So, indeed, MH is going to guarantee the bonds. Having McCain and the former AG was just gravy. This is over.
What got my attention more than anything else was McCain saying that Goldwater's stated goal of "protecting the taxpayers," has now been addressed. He'd been working behind the scenes to get all sides to sit down, and with this announcement by Hulsizer the taxpayers are indeed protected. A big win for Goldwater, and they are to be congratulated, according to Sen. McCain. Now let's move this deal across the finish line.

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03-21-2011, 12:34 AM
  #255
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Give the Yotes 5 years of stable management/winning and see what happens. If hockey is still failing here, I will be ready to accept the fact that hockey in Arizona will not work. Up to this point however, I don't think hockey in Arizona has gotten a fair shot.
Hockey, outside of the Coyotes, is getting a fair shot and the game is growing by leaps and bounds. When it comes to the Coyotes, you are correct in that it hasn't gotten a fair shot.

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03-21-2011, 12:35 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
Christ on a crutch, how many times do we have to go over this?

He is mitigating his risk by selling a part of the franchise assets to get the monies up front. He is now apparently going to guarantee the value of the asset he is selling (presumably because he feels that the asset IS worth what it is being valued at), but that does nto change the ffact that he is still monetizing it (and locking in that value) now, while giving away the potential upside.
That monetization made sense when he was selling the asset's potential benefits in order to avoid the risk. Now he's taking on the risk while still leaving the COG with risk (which is basically what has been the barrier for the entire deal) albeit considerably less.

If he's now willing to take on the risk, why not just hang onto them to reap the benefits he was giving up and avoid the bond issue which would take GWI out of the equation completely? The tradeoff is different now than it was a week ago so don't go pretending like its the same question being raised.

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03-21-2011, 12:36 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Dolemite View Post
Hockey, outside of the Coyotes, is getting a fair shot and the game is growing by leaps and bounds. When it comes to the Coyotes, you are correct in that it hasn't gotten a fair shot.
Thank you for clarifying for me, I agree. This town loves a winner. Winning a single playoff series this year and having a stable owner would do wonders for attendance next year IMO.

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03-21-2011, 12:39 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by surge1979 View Post
Right, because the GWI is in the habit of bowing down to political pressure. Speaking of which, Mr. Politically Connected, what is the status of that $500 million dollar lawsuit that the City of Glendale was threatening to file?
More: brahmresnick: What matters more than #SenJohnMcCain is what Hulsizer is doing. (But, no, Goldwater doesn't jump when McCain says so.)

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03-21-2011, 12:39 AM
  #259
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That monetization made sense when he was selling the asset's potential benefits in order to avoid the risk. Now he's taking on the risk while still leaving the COG with risk (which is basically what has been the barrier for the entire deal) albeit considerably less.

If he's now willing to take on the risk, why not just hang onto them to reap the benefits he was giving up and avoid the bond issue which would take GWI out of the equation completely? The tradeoff is different now than it was a week ago so don't go pretending like its the same question being raised.
It's almost like he is certain that there is NO risk, isn't it?

hmmm.

THe tradeoff is still essentially the same, as he obtains the value now.

What risk is COG left with, BTW? Bankruptcy risk of MH is about it, which is present in every transaction (as they discovered with Moyes) and is generally unavoidable to some extent.

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03-21-2011, 12:41 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by amjay13 View Post
True....but I'm guessing GWI isn't interested in finding out.
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Originally Posted by RAgIn View Post
More: brahmresnick: What matters more than #SenJohnMcCain is what Hulsizer is doing. (But, no, Goldwater doesn't jump when McCain says so.)
That's all I was saying.

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03-21-2011, 12:41 AM
  #261
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Give the Yotes 5 years of stable management/winning and see what happens. If hockey is still failing here, I will be ready to accept the fact that hockey in Arizona will not work. Up to this point however, I don't think hockey in Arizona has gotten a fair shot.
If the Yotes are given 5 years of winning?? Who is going to make sure that happens? Maybe in a league run by organized crime you could see something like this happen...aside from that, winning can't be guaranteed and shouldn't be an absolute requirement for any franchise to be sustainable.

You can pick anyone you want to manage this team...if they do well on the ice and lose piles of money...it will still be blamed on some form of mis-management or bad ownership. If ownership and management is great but the team still slumps and can't seem to be an on-ice success...losses will pile up and players get the blame.

At some point blame needs to rest on the piles of empty seats every night....even the TV households that choose to watch a re-run of Friends instead of a Coyotes game...they can shoulder some of the blame too.

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03-21-2011, 12:41 AM
  #262
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Watching the interviews i'm amazed that the former AG and a freaking senator have no negative comments on this deal like Hulsizer didn't add anything positive except a yawning comment about guaranteeing 75million of the 116million in bonds. With GWI still watching i believe they'd back off if he'd be willing to drop the 97Million area management fee or even the 100million payment from COG to help finance the purchase.

I can agree that NHL may be a big economical thing and the job losses may harm the city but really taxpayers are still on the hook for losses and nothing really changed within the the deal physically. There's just too many questions to be answered now then before.

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03-21-2011, 12:43 AM
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
It's almost like he is certain that there is NO risk, isn't it?

hmmm.
If there was no risk, he would have done this weeks ago. There is risk and that's why it has taken this long for him to make such a concession.

Quote:
THe tradeoff is still essentially the same, as he obtains the value now.
He doesn't obtain any additional value, his gains are the same now as they were when he wasn't guaranteeing the money.

Quote:
What risk is COG left with, BTW? Bankruptcy risk of MH is about it, which is present in every transaction (as they discovered with Moyes) and is generally unavoidable to some extent.
That they lose more than $75M over thirty years I suppose.

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03-21-2011, 12:48 AM
  #264
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As much as I'd love to see a team in Winnipeg, heck I think Canada could easily support 3 more teams....after what's transpired today, looks to me, the Coyotes are staying put.

Shane will be very happy.

And for Winnipeg supporters, don't take your anger out on the people of AZ, that wouldn't be right.

I just hope Bettman never goes to Winnipeg. Somehow I think he'd return home laying down.


Last edited by 2525: 03-21-2011 at 01:01 AM. Reason: thing? damn should be think :-)
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03-21-2011, 12:50 AM
  #265
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If the Yotes are given 5 years of winning?? Who is going to make sure that happens? Maybe in a league run by organized crime you could see something like this happen...aside from that, winning can't be guaranteed and shouldn't be an absolute requirement for any franchise to be sustainable.

You can pick anyone you want to manage this team...if they do well on the ice and lose piles of money...it will still be blamed on some form of mis-management or bad ownership. If ownership and management is great but the team still slumps and can't seem to be an on-ice success...losses will pile up and players get the blame.

At some point blame needs to rest on the piles of empty seats every night....even the TV households that choose to watch a re-run of Friends instead of a Coyotes game...they can shoulder some of the blame too.
Nobody can gaurantee winning but with stable management and a competent GM (which they have now), they'll have a much better shot at it than they have in the past decade. Sadly, I think the Yotes fate may have been sealed the day they decided to move to Glendale.

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03-21-2011, 12:53 AM
  #266
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If there was no risk, he would have done this weeks ago. There is risk and that's why it has taken this long for him to make such a concession.


He doesn't obtain any additional value, his gains are the same now as they were when he wasn't guaranteeing the money.



That they lose more than $75M over thirty years I suppose.
Sure, if (by way of example only) there is a 1-5% risk, there is "additional" risk. Not of a material nature.

I would imagine that he resisted because it was simply nonsense what GWI was trying to pull, not because there is material risk in achieving the conservative estimates in the parking reports. The incremental risk is minimal, because if the parking projections are falling significantly short, that means the team is not growing and he is getting his clock cleaned anyway (since it is undisputed that the business needs an upturn in order to succeed).

About the COG risk, we will have to wait and see what MH's guarantee consists of.

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03-21-2011, 12:54 AM
  #267
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Mod Note: NO MORE POLITICS unless is DIRECTLY effects the sale of the franchise (or GWI's actions).

No American politics, no Canadian politics, no Republican Party politics, no Tea Party politics.

There's a forum set up for politics. That talk should all be there.

NOT HERE.

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03-21-2011, 12:59 AM
  #268
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Watching the interviews i'm amazed that the former AG and a freaking senator have no negative comments on this deal like Hulsizer didn't add anything positive except a yawning comment about guaranteeing 75million of the 116million in bonds. With GWI still watching i believe they'd back off if he'd be willing to drop the 97Million area management fee or even the 100million payment from COG to help finance the purchase.

I can agree that NHL may be a big economical thing and the job losses may harm the city but really taxpayers are still on the hook for losses and nothing really changed within the the deal physically. There's just too many questions to be answered now then before.

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03-21-2011, 12:59 AM
  #269
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For a second there, I thought this was a CNN thread....

Let's move on. Chaos and fury will reign tomorrow. Imminent.

There will be un-happy campers in either Winnipeg or Phoenix/Glendale.

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03-21-2011, 01:25 AM
  #270
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The plot thickens.

More on the Hulsizer "guarantee" from AZ central:


Quote:
Hulsizer said he notified Goldwater he would guarantee the team will pay Glendale at least $100 million during its lease on the city's Jobing.com Arena through $75 million in team rent and fees and by covering $25 million in team losses that the city promised to pay the NHL this season, which is included in the team's purchase price
.

Quote:
The team rent and fees are already in the lease approved by Glendale and Hulsizer in December. But the amounts were not guaranteed. Glendale uses much of that money to pay off its original debt to build the arena.
Quote:
Glendale's total cost to finance the Hulsizer deal could total $250 million to $340 million when counting bond interest, which the city hopes to pay back in part by charging for parking during arena events.

Read the whole article at http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coyo...#ixzz1HDEQSj7d

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03-21-2011, 01:30 AM
  #271
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The 40 million is at the end of the lease or the buildings useful life. Sometime 30 years in the future. Building won't be worth that, but the property will be. He also has the option to buy jobing.com after 5 years for $140 million, allowing Glendale to pay off the bonds earlier.

I doub't Rexall, the building itself, is worth $40 million after so long. Or Mellon in the recent past.
"He also said on television Sunday night that he’ll get to buy the arena for $40 million at some point in his 30-year lease."

I know this came from the Winnipeg free press, but it does say "at some point". What does that mean exactly? 1,2 maybe 10 or 30 years? I think that should be made clear. Also, I've read that Hulsizer will buy the arena for up to $140million. When I hear negotiations using the words "up to" it makes my spidey senses tingle.
It's like going into a store that has everything "up to" 75% off. You just know that it's a sham.

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03-21-2011, 01:32 AM
  #272
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Ugh. Sounds like it's game over for Winnipeg...

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03-21-2011, 01:34 AM
  #273
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Ugh. Sounds like it's game over for Winnipeg...
I don't think so. If the guarantee is what AZ Central is reporting it is....this deal is far from over.

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03-21-2011, 01:37 AM
  #274
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How do the statements of McCain and Woods have any bearing on this case? McCain said ages ago he wanted the Coyotes to stay in Glendale, and Woods has been working on this since the clowns with Ice Edge were the supposed frontrunners. Perhaps this very public statement indicates something, but it's anybody's guess what. Given that McCain's earlier comments go back a month or more, I'd imagine he was putting pressure on GW ages ago to back off. That didn't stop GW from ratcheting up the pressure the past few weeks, though.

Also, I'm not sure how much power McCain would have with a group like GW. This is the lunatic who came up with the idea of paying out mortgages to the tune of $300 billion in federal money during the 08 campaign, remember? I can't see how he would be any sort of idol to the folks at GW.

It's also plain to see that Hulsizer is really offering nothing back. The two big arguments about the gift clause remain in (1) Glendale helping a private business by lending its credit, and (2) Glendale giving Hulsizer that outrageous arena management fee without even bothering to tender it out. This is just a total smokescreen.

That said, who really knows what's going on behind the scenes. If McCain and Woods really had pull with GW, though, why the effort to cajole GW publicly tonight? If they could really sway this, they'd have done so behind the scenes already, and Olsen would've been there with the dynamic duo tonight to claim victory and back off. Or so I would think. Anything's possible here. I'm expecting Bettman to give this another year if the bond sale falls apart at this point, because everybody was soooo close.

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03-21-2011, 01:41 AM
  #275
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Nobody can gaurantee winning but with stable management and a competent GM (which they have now), they'll have a much better shot at it than they have in the past decade. Sadly, I think the Yotes fate may have been sealed the day they decided to move to Glendale.
Unfortunatly nobody can guarantee stable managment and a competent GM, the Coyotes have been in Arizona for 15 years and problems in ownership/management/ GM should have been taken care of by now. To say that NOW on the cusp of the team moving that Mr. X (who happens to be Hulsizer) wants to buy the team and devote his life in it, that it somehow makes everything better and the future is somehow brighter now, well that is a little naive.

I am sure Winniperggers were saying the same thing, that if they had better management and ownership that they would not have lost their team. Shoulda, coulda, woulda, life isn't fair. The coyotes have had more than their fair shot. Saying that if the team has more winning seasons and playoff games that it will get people in the door, in my opinion is silly, ANY sports team that wins a lot will have fans, but it is the fans that come to the games when their team in not winning that matters.

On another note, Hulsizer has a chance to show his devotion to the team by opening up his wallet and paying for it without the help of Glendale. Monday, he has the oppurtunity to end this madness and pay for the team with his own cash. This may be stupid of me to say but if he really loved the Coyotes and Coyotes fans, he would pay 170$ million of his OWN cash for this team and reap the benefits of parking for himself.

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