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Old
07-06-2004, 09:43 PM
  #26
neversummer
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I felt all along that while Conroy would be an OK fit that it serves no purpose. In fact, you could make a case that Messier should be signed before Conroy (did I just say that). Money is not the issue w/ me. It's not the money either. Spend billions for all I care. However, spend it on the future.

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07-06-2004, 10:15 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neversummer
I felt all along that while Conroy would be an OK fit that it serves no purpose. In fact, you could make a case that Messier should be signed before Conroy (did I just say that). Money is not the issue w/ me. It's not the money either. Spend billions for all I care. However, spend it on the future.
I wish we could just buy the future. But it takes a lot more than just money to build for the future.

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07-06-2004, 10:53 PM
  #28
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Conroy isn't that good and I don't understand why anyone would be upset about this (non)move.

He may have had a good season last year, but he looked a lot better because his team was so good. When a team clicks like Calgary did in the playoffs last season, it makes all the parts look a lot better than they really are. Conroy is an example of this.

We already have a player, Holik, who plays the same role as Conroy. If you want a 1st line center for Jagr so you can move Holik down to a checking line, I agree, but Conroy isn't that first line center. I would rather have Holik playing 1st line, eventhough I don't agree with it, because his style of play matches Jagr and they have already proven they can play well together.

AND Conroy is 32. He's old now, and he's going to be even older by the end of this contract. We would end up with Conroy and Holik being pretty old and having big contracts that are hard to move....and taking a spot away for a kid. Conroy isn't a guy that fits into this team now, and certainly not beyond this year.

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07-06-2004, 10:57 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr4life5186
How can you guys be angry about this? I dont get it.

You dont go around overpaying for veteran forwards when your team is rebuilding and the league is on the verge of armageddon. Thats it. End of story. The less free agents, the better. I'm perfectly happy if Sather doesn't sign anyone of significance and gives a kid like Moore or Wiseman a chance on a top line.

Amen Brother

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07-07-2004, 08:15 AM
  #30
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I like Conroy, but the idea of him on broadway will get old in about as many games as it took Tampa to beat Calgary, which was 7 i believe. If you are going to develop talent, it's probably important to develop at the center ice position. Something Calgary didn't do.

We should spend money on younger players, Umberger, for example. Or young UFA. I would have signed him and let him tear it up at Hartford (if eligible) His attitude would change pretty quickly if he can't. W/ our current situation it would have been smart to try that experiment....nice upside.

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07-07-2004, 08:27 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr4life5186
gives a kid like Moore or Wiseman a chance on a top line.
Throwing out rookies just for the sake of throwing out rookies is not a sound strategy. Wiseman has shown very little. He has not shown that his future is anything more than a fringe NHLer. Moore has not shown that he is capable of playing anything more than a 3rd line role (and that's after he improves). either of these kids on the top 2 lines is a recipe for the #1 pick overall. I know that we want to rebuild and get a good draft choice and all that, but throwing out youngsters that have no chance when going against top lines is an easy way to destroy whatever confidence these guys may have.
The fact of the matter is that the Rangers will sign at least 2 forwards (one for the top line one for the 2nd). Right now, you have Jagr on the top line and Balej & Lundmark as the wings of the 2nd. You want to throw in Moore & Wiseman into that? Come on now. And don't say Holik. Again, just becuase you pay a guy like Forsberg, does not make him Forsberg. Holik is the best 3rd line shutdown center in the league. That's why you got him. Isn't it time to use him as such?

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07-07-2004, 09:11 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
You want to throw in Moore & Wiseman into that? Come on now.
Why Not??

These aren't 18 year old players, fresh out of juniors. And if not them, then whoever of the group of prospects who earn the spots coming out of camp.. And don't say "it'll ruin them," that's just an easy justification for not playing youth. If whoever earns the spot(s) starts to struggle, send them down for confidence, and give another a shot.

These guys are ready to play, they have a shot to earn a spot and will smell the blood and do anything to earn it, I say let 'em loose and Have at it.

I've said it before, I'll consider seeing the tenaciousness of guys like Wiseman, Ortmeyer, Murray and the rest as a VAST improvement over what we've seen the last 7 seasons.

I wouldn't mind if someone like Weimer was brought in, just to have a little more vet presence, but I would be more than happy to watch a team of mainly 22-25 year olds work their ***** off to prove they belong in the NHL..

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07-07-2004, 09:25 AM
  #33
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If we were talking about bluechip prospects, I would agree that sending them out early is a bad idea. But Moore, Wiseman, G. Moore, etc. are not bluechippers. These are guys that are probably lucky to be in an organization that is in a stage to give them a chance to prove they can do it (or not). If we were talking about people who were early first round picks, destined to be impact players with proper grooming, it would make sense to be patient with them. But if we don't play these guys this year, they will probably be passed in the organization fairly soon and never get their chance. This is their chance to emerge as NHL players.

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07-07-2004, 10:09 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
Wiseman has shown very little.
Being the leading scorer of our AHL affiliate shows me something. With only 8 NHL games under his belt, I'm not sure he's had enough time to show something at this level, but a goal last year was a good start. That's one more than Lundmark in 52 fewer games. I'm not picking on Jamie, but I fail to see how those who hold out hope for a contribution from him can't do the same for Chad considering they're the same age.

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07-07-2004, 10:10 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davisian
Why Not??
Becuase chances are these guys are 99.99% likely NOT to see top 2 line ice time when they reach their prime (whenever that is). Why not? Becuase throwing Manny Malhotra into the fire worked out so well. There is a difference between allowing rookies to skate with Sakic like Colarado does. First of all, it's Sakic. Second of all, he plays center. Third of all, the rookie prospects that play on the top lines are likely to be top 2 line prospects.
Here's your first 2 lines:
Wiseman-Moore-Jagr
Balej - -Lundmark
Playing Holik on the top line is sheer stupidity. Actually playing him as anything but a shutdown center is sheer stupidity. What kind of a top line is that? I know that we are rebuilding, but even rebuilding teams have something more than a future fringe NHLer (Wiseman) and a hopefull future 3rd line player (Moore). Not that I am advocating signing every UFA out there, but one CANNNOT out out the team the way the Rangers are currently constituted. A top line like that, with the rest of the team the way that it is, would be A LOT like the '62 Mets.

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Old
07-07-2004, 10:12 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr.
Being the leading scorer of our AHL affiliate shows me something. With only 8 NHL games under his belt, I'm not sure he's had enough time to show something at this level, but a goal last year was a good start. That's one more than Lundmark in 52 fewer games. I'm not picking on Jamie, but I fail to see how those who hold out hope for a contribution from him can't do the same for Chad considering they're the same age.
Come on, MJ. Who cares that he is the leading scorer of Hartford? For how many years was it Gernander or Smythe that led in scoring? Yet no one serioulsy considered either of them to start the year with the big club on the top line. Yes, Wiseman has shown character and heart. But you need slightly more if you want to play on the top lines in the NHL. He IS NOT a blue-chip prospect. He has not shown that he is a future top liner in any of his play.
Are you seriously telling me that a top line of Wiseman-Moore-Jagr is the way to go?

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07-07-2004, 10:20 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
Becuase chances are these guys are 99.99% likely NOT to see top 2 line ice time when they reach their prime (whenever that is). Why not? Becuase throwing Manny Malhotra into the fire worked out so well. There is a difference between allowing rookies to skate with Sakic like Colarado does. First of all, it's Sakic. Second of all, he plays center. Third of all, the rookie prospects that play on the top lines are likely to be top 2 line prospects.
Again, Manny was 18 when he was thrown into the fire, and there was a lot more pressure on the team.

And I'm using Wiseman and/or Moore as an example, but it could be others who step up. No, it's not "ideal" to have Holik on the top line, but for a team that's rebuilding, NOTHING is ideal. You have to let these kids sink or swim now, they've already had some seasoning in the AHL and tastes of NHL life, now its time to say there's spots open, EARN them.

How can we know who will be "top 2 line" or not, if we don't even let them develop when the team is in full rebuild mode???

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07-07-2004, 10:20 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
Are you seriously telling me that a top line of Wiseman-Moore-Jagr is the way to go?
I'm not saying he's a first liner, but to say he's shown nothing just isn't accurate. There are Wolfpackers who aren't meeting expectations. Chad is not one of them.

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Old
07-07-2004, 10:22 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
Are you seriously telling me that a top line of Wiseman-Moore-Jagr is the way to go?

What we're saying (or at least I'm saying) is that the top line RIGHT NOW is

____ _____ Jagr

Then we have a good sized stable of youth.

Have at it boys, lets see who earns it..

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07-07-2004, 11:36 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Davisian
What we're saying (or at least I'm saying) is that the top line RIGHT NOW is

____ _____ Jagr

Then we have a good sized stable of youth.

Have at it boys, lets see who earns it..
But you cannot enter camp with the hopes that Wiseman and Moore will be the ones to fill those slots. The fact of the matter is that the Rangers DO NOT HAVE anyone that will be a first line center material. Ideal or not, playing Holik in a checking role against the other teams top lines is what will give the Rangers their best chance to win on any night. Playing him with Jagr is the exact opposite. Balej MAY be a top line talent eventually, but right now the top line is not for him. He looks like a 2nd line player. And as such, he should be on the 2nd line with Lundmark as the other wing. That leaves the top 2 centers and the other wing, opposite Jagr to fill. The Rangers CANNOT enter a season where they are pinning their hopes that Wiseman and Moore suddenly blossom and show more than they have ever shown before. There WILL be UFA's signed to fill those spots.

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Old
07-07-2004, 12:03 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
Ideal or not, playing Holik in a checking role against the other teams top lines is what will give the Rangers their best chance to win on any night.
You're right, but I just don't think we can take that approach this year. No matter what, Holik is going to carry a bulk of the ice time at center this year. Maybe it's with Jagr, maybe it's not, but Holik is the most valueble and experienced player on this team now and absolutely cannot assume a support role as a 3rd line checker as much as that's probably the best way to use him strategically.

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Old
07-07-2004, 02:00 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
Ideal or not, playing Holik in a checking role against the other teams top lines is what will give the Rangers their best chance to win on any night. Playing him with Jagr is the exact opposite.
But the goal of a rebuilding team is not to look for the best chance to win on any given night, but to give icetime and experience to young players to see how they handle certain roles. I'll be rooting for them to win, but what is much more important is to see them develop.

Forget just Wiseman and Moore, there's many other possibilities (Giroux is my darkhorse) that can earn the spots and show they belong.

Holik on a contender is best used as a checking center, Holik on a rebuilding team is best used wherever the coach needs him to take pressure off a kid.

And Holik on the first line, or third line next year doesn't really matter, he will be facing the opponents best line one way or another.

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