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Leafs to honour Sundin next season

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Old
03-29-2011, 11:52 AM
  #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
They're honouring Mats Sundin the player, not all of the teams he played for.
OK

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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
He was an elite player who lead this Leafs team for many years.
OK...depends on your definition of elite....but fine

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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
Sometimes he was the best player on a good team
Disagree there, we had elite goaltending, otherwise see below

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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
other times he was the best player on a bad team, but he always seemed to be our best player. You don't seem to understand why they're honouring Sundin.

Oh he was without a doubt the best player the last few years he was here, the years we made the annual run to ninth.


Again Im not saying he doesn't deserve to be "honoured"

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03-29-2011, 12:27 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
Just curious why you spend so much time on this nonsense....If you don't understand why you and your "I hate Mats Sundin" fanclub are not very well received on a TML board, you are clueless.

We get it. You and the 4 other posters on this board dislike Mats because he didn't give "blood and guts" like your good ole Canadian boys who captained the Leafs...Who is your hero anyway...Don Cherry? He loved Gilmour and even kissed him on TV..."Good Ole Kingston Boy" and then two thumbs up as he is draped in his kitchen table cloth. I loved Gilmour as well and Wendel Clark is probably one of my 5 all-time favorite hockey players ever but even I cannot say that Clark/Gilmour were in the same class as Sundin as leader/captain of the Leafs....as I said in a previous post...Darryl Sittler is the only one who I can compare to him on that level. The Leafs had some great captains before Sittler as well but I'm not old enough to appreciate them. Something tells me if Mats was from Brandon, Manitoba or St Johns, Newfoundland, your stance would be a little different. Of course you will never admit to being a bigot now would you....

You can dislike Mats all you like but his name will be at the top of the TML scoring leaders board for a very very long time. His legacy in the city won't die for a very long time and if you think Sundin will hear one of your petty boos you are dreaming...also I hardly think he would care anyways. Like someone said, even if there are 1000 classless fans in attendance...they won't be heard over the 18000 Leaf fans cheering on one of the greatest Leafs to ever wear the jersey.

Also you comparing, Sundin to Dany Heatley really displays how little you know about the sport and team you claim to love.
Real nice Hockey Fanzzzzzzzzz. now you've added '' bigot '' to your repertoire of name calling. my, my, we are quite the word smith. And at risk of pissing you off even more, before you start calling Sittler the greatest captain ever, Read a book. This team was torn to shreds for a decade because of Darryl's refusal to move in a no trade contract. The Leafs wanted to go in a different direction, Darryl dug in his heals and all hell broke loose. It resulted in Imlach and Ballard trading the heart of this franchise away for little or no return. So you see ,us older fans are not stuck in a time warp where we only like players from the past. We just "calls em as we sees em." And as far as you assuming that i know nothing about the game, or wouldn't know talent if it slapped me in the face ? remember this young jedi. I have probably forgotten more about hockey in the last 10 minuts than you'll know in a life time.

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03-29-2011, 12:45 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by shack23 View Post
This team was torn to shreds for a decade because of Darryl's refusal to move in a no trade contract.
That never seizes to amaze me. How dare they use a clause that both parties agreed upon? What next? Are they going to collect the paychecks they agreed upon too? Greedy ****ers.


If you don't want your hands tied, don't hand out NTCs. Be prepared to either see the player you're negotiating with walk or ask for more money instead though. Just don't make them out to be the bad guy when they make use of the contract you offered them. I don't see how that is "class".

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03-29-2011, 12:46 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by shack23 View Post
Real nice Hockey Fanzzzzzzzzz. now you've added '' bigot '' to your repertoire of name calling. my, my, we are quite the word smith. And at risk of pissing you off even more, before you start calling Sittler the greatest captain ever, Read a book. This team was torn to shreds for a decade because of Darryl's refusal to move in a no trade contract. The Leafs wanted to go in a different direction, Darryl dug in his heals and all hell broke loose. It resulted in Imlach and Ballard trading the heart of this franchise away for little or no return. So you see ,us older fans are not stuck in a time warp where we only like players from the past. We just "calls em as we sees em." And as far as you assuming that i know nothing about the game, or wouldn't know talent if it slapped me in the face ? remember this young jedi. I have probably forgotten more about hockey in the last 10 minuts than you'll know in a life time.
That's a new one.

Can you expand out that? This older fan doesn't recall it.

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03-29-2011, 12:51 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by shack23 View Post
Real nice Hockey Fanzzzzzzzzz. now you've added '' bigot '' to your repertoire of name calling. my, my, we are quite the word smith. And at risk of pissing you off even more, before you start calling Sittler the greatest captain ever, Read a book. This team was torn to shreds for a decade because of Darryl's refusal to move in a no trade contract. The Leafs wanted to go in a different direction, Darryl dug in his heals and all hell broke loose. It resulted in Imlach and Ballard trading the heart of this franchise away for little or no return. So you see ,us older fans are not stuck in a time warp where we only like players from the past. We just "calls em as we sees em." And as far as you assuming that i know nothing about the game, or wouldn't know talent if it slapped me in the face ? remember this young jedi. I have probably forgotten more about hockey in the last 10 minuts than you'll know in a life time.
Whether Sittler waived his NTC or not the team was destined to be bad for a long time because of the way that Ballard ran the team. An older fan should know that.

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03-29-2011, 01:09 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by shack23 View Post
Real nice Hockey Fanzzzzzzzzz. now you've added '' bigot '' to your repertoire of name calling. my, my, we are quite the word smith. And at risk of pissing you off even more, before you start calling Sittler the greatest captain ever, Read a book. This team was torn to shreds for a decade because of Darryl's refusal to move in a no trade contract. The Leafs wanted to go in a different direction, Darryl dug in his heals and all hell broke loose. It resulted in Imlach and Ballard trading the heart of this franchise away for little or no return. So you see ,us older fans are not stuck in a time warp where we only like players from the past. We just "calls em as we sees em." And as far as you assuming that i know nothing about the game, or wouldn't know talent if it slapped me in the face ? remember this young jedi. I have probably forgotten more about hockey in the last 10 minuts than you'll know in a life time.
Nowhere did I call Sittler the greatest captain ever...thanks for coming out. I merely stated that he was the only captain in MY lifetime that can compare with Mats.

Let me take apart your contractual agreement with your employer. You agreed to work 40 hours a week for a 1000 bucks. I as, your boss, tell you for the good of the organization...I will need you to work 55 hours a week for 900 bucks.....

Of course, you the company man and holier than thou type of person would accept it because it is for the good of the company...I know..I know..you have worked for the company for 10+ years and you have been reliable and a good employee...you never complained but that's all history now. I know..I know...your production has been better than anybody I ever hired before and you led the team all the while training and tutoring the new hires. I know...blah blah blah... Now all I need you to do for the company is tear up that contract that WE agreed to give you and do as I say.

Of course you will...you are a great man. You will sacrifice everthing personal for the good of the organization (who by the way owes you nothing but your contractual agreement just like you owe them nothing but your contractual agreement).

Does it work in reverse? Im just curious. Would it be OK for say.....Clarke MacArthur to walk into Burke's office and refuse to play another game for the Leafs because he feels he is underpaid for his contributions to the team..Because he clearly is. Or do fans look at this as being a "turncoat"

Just curious......

I suppose Darryl Sittler was a bum too...I know. But your hero Dougie, who demanded to be traded...well lets just overlook that little fact shall we? The same captain who never actually took the Leafs any further than Sundin or Sittler....but he gave his "blood and guts" much unlike Mats and Darryl did...both captains were clearly floaters who were selfish and only thought of themselves..unlike the guy who demanded a trade outta town. Your argument just gets dumber by the post.

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03-29-2011, 01:19 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
We get it. You and the 4 other posters on this board dislike Mats because he didn't give "blood and guts" like your good ole Canadian boys who captained the Leafs...Who is your hero anyway...Don Cherry? He loved Gilmour and even kissed him on TV..."Good Ole Kingston Boy" and then two thumbs up as he is draped in his kitchen table cloth. I loved Gilmour as well and Wendel Clark is probably one of my 5 all-time favorite hockey players ever but even I cannot say that Clark/Gilmour were in the same class as Sundin as leader/captain of the Leafs....as I said in a previous post...Darryl Sittler is the only one who I can compare to him on that level. The Leafs had some great captains before Sittler as well but I'm not old enough to appreciate them. Something tells me if Mats was from Brandon, Manitoba or St Johns, Newfoundland, your stance would be a little different. Of course you will never admit to being a bigot now would you....
Well put. This is really it, isn't it?? This was absolutely the issue when Sundin was made captain, and I really think this has continued to influence some people's perceptions of him.

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03-29-2011, 01:28 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by 705techno View Post
OK



OK...depends on your definition of elite....but fine



Disagree there, we had elite goaltending, otherwise see below




Oh he was without a doubt the best player the last few years he was here, the years we made the annual run to ninth.


Again Im not saying he doesn't deserve to be "honoured"
This post is complete hogwash, check his numbers and come back to me. First ballot Hall of Famer, owns nearly every Leafs record.

I can tell you only remember Sundin from the later half of his career. He was our best player before Cujo and Belfour as well and to be honest, their goaltending helps the teams win column much more than his statsheet. He was an elite player in every sense of the word and is one of the most clutch players to ever play in the NHL

As a sidenote, I am saying this as somebody who was not his biggest fan when he played. That doesn't mean I don't respect what he did for the organization

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03-29-2011, 01:30 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
Nowhere did I call Sittler the greatest captain ever...thanks for coming out. I merely stated that he was the only captain in MY lifetime that can compare with Mats.

Let me take apart your contractual agreement with your employer. You agreed to work 40 hours a week for a 1000 bucks. I as, your boss, tell you for the good of the organization...I will need you to work 55 hours a week for 900 bucks.....

Of course, you the company man and holier than thou type of person would accept it because it is for the good of the company...I know..I know..you have worked for the company for 10+ years and you have been reliable and a good employee...you never complained but that's all history now. I know..I know...your production has been better than anybody I ever hired before and you led the team all the while training and tutoring the new hires. I know...blah blah blah... Now all I need you to do for the company is tear up that contract that WE agreed to give you and do as I say.

Of course you will...you are a great man. You will sacrifice everthing personal for the good of the organization (who by the way owes you nothing but your contractual agreement just like you owe them nothing but your contractual agreement).

Does it work in reverse? Im just curious. Would it be OK for say.....Clarke MacArthur to walk into Burke's office and refuse to play another game for the Leafs because he feels he is underpaid for his contributions to the team..Because he clearly is. Or do fans look at this as being a "turncoat"

Just curious......

I suppose Darryl Sittler was a bum too...I know. But your hero Dougie, who demanded to be traded...well lets just overlook that little fact shall we? The same captain who never actually took the Leafs any further than Sundin or Sittler....but he gave his "blood and guts" much unlike Mats and Darryl did...both captains were clearly floaters who were selfish and only thought of themselves..unlike the guy who demanded a trade outta town. Your argument just gets dumber by the post.
Shoo Fly... Shoo !

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03-29-2011, 01:34 PM
  #260
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even though we disagree , we should still respect one another, " The Sundin sucks ", comment is obviously a shot back at the pro Sundin posters who have used the terms Brain dead, Stupid, Petty, Lesser and unknowledgable fans, Absolute garbage, and on top of all that, be told to shut the hell up. It becomes tiresome and borish to hear immature comments like these. The Sundin = Heatley comment was a fair one, Both players were worshiped by their fans, and both players through their own selfishness left their organisations on a sour note. One thing has become clear, there is a real controversy about honouring Mats Sundin. There is little doubt that at some point ( hopefully not within the near future ) that this will take place. You may be surprised at how many fans will be sitting on their hands and looking in another direction while this is happening. If i were a major sponsor of Hockey Night In Canada, i sure as hell wouldn't be buying advertising time for the first half hour of that game. I think you may find out that their ratings will sit somewhere behind reruns of The Simpsons and Gilligans Island.
Well put, fair enough.
Until this is properly resolved, which, as you said, may take a while and not many people may care when it is, I think it really comes down to who you give your benefit of the doubt to in the meantime. In my mind, absolutely nothing in the rest of Sundin's career suggests that he would be selfish or shady or disloyal to this team. I could be wrong, but I'm assuming that you're giving your benefit of the doubt to the team that has brought you steady, shady ownership by Ballard and the Teachers' Pension, has brought you the "do just enough to win a round or two in the playoffs" management rule for years, hid from you the fact that Gretzky wanted to end his career here, has recently brought you shady management by Peddie (which included the shady removal of Pat Quinn and the sorta-GM-in-charge-JFJ).

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03-29-2011, 01:46 PM
  #261
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Can't wait for this.. I'm sure it will be a really emotional ceremony for one of the Leafs best ever.

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03-29-2011, 01:46 PM
  #262
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Shoo Fly... Shoo !
Gladly...this pile was getting stale anyway.

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03-29-2011, 02:43 PM
  #263
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This post is complete hogwash, check his numbers and come back to me. First ballot Hall of Famer, owns nearly every Leafs record.

I can tell you only remember Sundin from the later half of his career. He was our best player before Cujo and Belfour
OK, before we signed CuJo we popped off these wonderous campaigns, of course he was the best player but so what.


1994–95 48 21 19 8 -- 50 135 146 744 4th in Central Lost in Conference Quarterfinals, 3–4 (Blackhawks)
1995–96 82 34 36 12 -- 80 247 252 1742 3rd in Central Lost in Conference Quarterfinals, 2–4 (Blues)
1996–97 82 30 44 8 -- 68 230 273 1331 6th in Central Did not qualify
1997–98 82 30 43 9 -- 69 194 237 1481 6th in Central Did not qualify


Then they sign Cujo, followed by Belfour

1998–99 82 45 30 7 -- 97 268 231 1095 2nd in Northeast Won in Conference Quarterfinals, 4–2 (Flyers)
Won in Conference Semifinals, 4–2 (Penguins)
Lost in Conference Finals, 1–4 (Sabres)
1999–2000 82 45 27 7 3 100 246 222 1103 1st in Northeast Won in Conference Quarterfinals, 4–2 (Senators)
Lost in Conference Semifinals, 2–4 (Devils)
2000–01 82 37 29 11 5 90 232 207 1430 3rd in Northeast Won in Conference Quarterfinals, 4–0 (Senators)
Lost in Conference Semifinals, 3–4 (Devils)
2001–02 82 43 25 10 4 100 249 207 1212 2nd in Northeast Won in Conference Quarterfinals, 4–3 (Islanders)
Won in Conference Semifinals, 4–3 (Senators)
Lost in Conference Finals, 2–4 (Hurricanes)
2002–03 82 44 28 7 3 98 236 208 1390 2nd in Northeast Lost in Conference Quarterfinals, 3–4 (Flyers)
2003–04 82 45 24 10 3 103 242 204 1452 2nd in Northeast Won in Conference Quarterfinals, 4–3 (Senators)
Lost in Conference Semifinals, 2–4 (Flyers)




Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexxed14 View Post
as well and to be honest, their goaltending helps the teams win column much more than his statsheet. He was an elite player in every sense of the word and is one of the most clutch players to ever play in the NHL
Not sure what you mean here...are you saying that the goaltending was more of a factor in our victorious runs (98-04) than anything else? If so we agree.

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03-29-2011, 02:53 PM
  #264
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Real nice Hockey Fanzzzzzzzzz. now you've added '' bigot '' to your repertoire of name calling. my, my, we are quite the word smith. And at risk of pissing you off even more, before you start calling Sittler the greatest captain ever, Read a book. This team was torn to shreds for a decade because of Darryl's refusal to move in a no trade contract. The Leafs wanted to go in a different direction, Darryl dug in his heals and all hell broke loose. It resulted in Imlach and Ballard trading the heart of this franchise away for little or no return. So you see ,us older fans are not stuck in a time warp where we only like players from the past. We just "calls em as we sees em." And as far as you assuming that i know nothing about the game, or wouldn't know talent if it slapped me in the face ? remember this young jedi. I have probably forgotten more about hockey in the last 10 minuts than you'll know in a life time.
This is a joke right?

You can't be serious.. going from bashing Sundin for no good reason to bashing Sittler for the same made up ******** reason? Are you just purposely going for every record holder on the Leafs and sayign how they sucked? Who's next.. Turk Broda?

You know nothing about Sittler's time (as you've proven), because Ballard tore apart the good Leafs team of the late 70's to piss of Sittler into asking to be traded, because Ballard didn't like how much influence over the team his own (deserving) captain had. The players adored him and he was a great leader and player. Ballard didn't like the fact that he didn't like Sittler's influence and did everything he could to try and get Sittler to want to leave, including tearing apart the team. You're trying to say it was the other way around? That it was evil, selfish Sittler tearing apart the team and poor old Ballard was just trying to do what was best for the other players.. What a joke. Both Sittler and Sundin loved wearing the Maple Leaf and wanted to retire in it, and Sittler has shown how much he loves the Leafs and the fans by returning to everything and supporting them after Ballard died.

And, as Hockeyfanz has pointed out and you seem to conveniently ignore, Gilmour was the one being selfish by asking to be traded. Not saying I don't like him, I love him, but you should probably know what you're talking about before badmouthing 2 of the best captains since the Original Six glory days.

tl;dr: Know what you're talking about before making an ass out of yourself.

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03-29-2011, 02:55 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by 705techno View Post
OK, before we signed CuJo we popped off these wonderous campaigns, of course he was the best player but so what.




Not sure what you mean here...are you saying that the goaltending was more of a factor in our victorious runs (98-04) than anything else? If so we agree.
This is about Sundin the player not the Maple Leafs and their success or failures throughout the 90's and the turn of the century.

I can always tell somebody who follows a sport but never really played it when they attribute a team of 24 people winning to 1 or 2 players.

Sundin, as an individual player, deserves the honour

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03-29-2011, 03:04 PM
  #266
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Not sure what you mean here...are you saying that the goaltending was more of a factor in our victorious runs (98-04) than anything else? If so we agree.
How does good goaltending take away from anything Sundin did? Do Detroit fans say that Yzerman wasn't all that, because Detroit didn't accomplish much until they got good goaltending in the late 90s? Do Colorado fans say that Sakic is an inferior player because Roy was in net? Nope, leave it to some Leaf fans.

Your stats just confirm that this is a team game and that one player can't do it by themselves. Oh, and that the coaching absolutely sucked between 1995 and 1998.

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03-29-2011, 03:31 PM
  #267
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That never seizes to amaze me. How dare they use a clause that both parties agreed upon? What next? Are they going to collect the paychecks they agreed upon too? Greedy ****ers.


If you don't want your hands tied, don't hand out NTCs. Be prepared to either see the player you're negotiating with walk or ask for more money instead though. Just don't make them out to be the bad guy when they make use of the contract you offered them. I don't see how that is "class".
This has always confused me.

Two parties make a contract, and suddenly one of them is supposed to give up part of what they got? Why? There has to be something for both sides if you're going to change the terms. NTCs are just one part of a whole package - but you can't just pretend they don't exist.

Why don't we ask players to return half their salary instead? Makes as much sense.

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03-29-2011, 03:38 PM
  #268
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This has always confused me.

Two parties make a contract, and suddenly one of them is supposed to give up part of what they got? Why? There has to be something for both sides if you're going to change the terms. NTCs are just one part of a whole package - but you can't just pretend they don't exist.

Why don't we ask players to return half their salary instead? Makes as much sense.
I agree

The only side with no class are the fans who expect the player to waive it and who treat the player like crap when he doesn't. Absolute trash fans.

In my opinion, all no trade clauses should be conditional on maintaining a certain level of performance. This way, if a player gets a NTC and then starts to suck, he is moveable but only in the off season

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03-29-2011, 03:48 PM
  #269
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That's a new one.

Can you expand out that? This older fan doesn't recall it.
In the summer of 1980, after watching the leafs slide a few points backward, Harold ''the talking ass'' Ballard decided it was time for a house cleaning. At the end of the previous season he fired both Roger Neilson and Jim Gregory. That summer he hired Punch Imlach as G.M. that was the beginning of the end of the Leafs to this day. Imlach being from the old school ,wanted complete control of the team,but by that time Sittler had been given a free hand by the previous coaches and figured that he should have a say in matters also. Imlach couldn't change and Sittler refused to relinquish the power he had acquired. Right or wrong, Imlach didn't see Sittler as his kind of captain and wanted immediate changes. After some very heated and public arguments between the two over the first few months, Imlach tried to pull the trigger on a trade involving Sittler. But unbeknown to Imlach Sittler had a no trade contract and could not me moved. Imlach made several attempts in trying to, convince Sittler to leave, but to no avail. Knowing that he couldn't move Sittler, Imlach went into complete demolition mode. He started by trading Sittlers best friends Pat Boutette, then Lanny McDonald was next. it didn't stop there and players like Tiger Williams , Joel Quinville and Jerrry Buttler and a host of others were dealt away. Sittler cut the '' C '' from his sweater in protest. The battling went on for two years until Imlach was felled from a heart attack. After Imlach's death ,Sittler tried to smooth things over with Ballard and tried to get an extension on his existing contract along with a big raise. But Ballard held fast and finally Sittler tired from the fight, was given a letter from his doctor for exhaustion and left the team . This time he agreed to a trade and was dealt to the Flyers for a low draft pick and a guy named Rich Costello. Sittler spent a couple of productive years with the Flyers, but on the day HE says , that he was to be named captain of the Flyers , he was suddenly dealt to the Red Wings . At first Sittler refused the move to Detroit but again ,a pay raise convinced him to move. Sittlers final season in Detroit was a disaster, Playing on the fourth line and sometimes not at all. Im not putting all the blame on Sittler or Sundin. All i know for sure is that by them both refusing a move, has allowed me the opportunity to watch some pretty ****** hockey over the last thirty years. I have read both the Imlach and Sittler autobiography's . When i first read Imlachs book, being a big Sittler fan i thought that he was full of ****. No way Darryl acted this way. But reading Sittlers autobiography was a revelation, Not only did he admit to leading the players away from management, but he stood by and watched this team torn to ribbons.

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03-29-2011, 03:54 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by shack23 View Post
In the summer of 1980, after watching the leafs slide a few points backward, Harold ''the talking ass'' Ballard decided it was time for a house cleaning. At the end of the previous season he fired both Roger Neilson and Jim Gregory. That summer he hired Punch Imlach as G.M. that was the beginning of the end of the Leafs to this day. Imlach being from the old school ,wanted complete control of the team,but by that time Sittler had been given a free hand by the previous coaches and figured that he should have a say in matters also. Imlach couldn't change and Sittler refused to relinquish the power he had acquired. Right or wrong, Imlach didn't see Sittler as his kind of captain and wanted immediate changes. After some very heated and public arguments between the two over the first few months, Imlach tried to pull the trigger on a trade involving Sittler. But unbeknown to Imlach Sittler had a no trade contract and could not me moved. Imlach made several attempts in trying to, convince Sittler to leave, but to no avail. Knowing that he couldn't move Sittler, Imlach went into complete demolition mode. He started by trading Sittlers best friends Pat Boutette, then Lanny McDonald was next. it didn't stop there and players like Tiger Williams , Joel Quinville and Jerrry Buttler and a host of others were dealt away. Sittler cut the '' C '' from his sweater in protest. The battling went on for two years until Imlach was felled from a heart attack. After Imlach's death ,Sittler tried to smooth things over with Ballard and tried to get an extension on his existing contract along with a big raise. But Ballard held fast and finally Sittler tired from the fight, was given a letter from his doctor for exhaustion and left the team . This time he agreed to a trade and was dealt to the Flyers for a low draft pick and a guy named Rich Costello. Sittler spent a couple of productive years with the Flyers, but on the day HE says , that he was to be named captain of the Flyers , he was suddenly dealt to the Red Wings . At first Sittler refused the move to Detroit but again ,a pay raise convinced him to move. Sittlers final season in Detroit was a disaster, Playing on the fourth line and sometimes not at all. Im not putting all the blame on Sittler or Sundin. All i know for sure is that by them both refusing a move, has allowed me the opportunity to watch some pretty ****** hockey over the last thirty years. I have read both the Imlach and Sittler autobiography's . When i first read Imlachs book, being a big Sittler fan i thought that he was full of ****. No way Darryl acted this way. But reading Sittlers autobiography was a revelation, Not only did he admit to leading the players away from management, but he stood by and watched this team torn to ribbons.
Still 100% managements fault imo

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03-29-2011, 03:57 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Vexxed14 View Post
Still 100% managements fault imo
Agreed. Pretty easy to see why Sittler and Sundin are viewed as great Leaders by their peers. Both were excellent team mates.

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03-29-2011, 04:14 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by enixer View Post
How does good goaltending take away from anything Sundin did? Do Detroit fans say that Yzerman wasn't all that, because Detroit didn't accomplish much until they got good goaltending in the late 90s? Do Colorado fans say that Sakic is an inferior player because Roy was in net? Nope, leave it to some Leaf fans.

Your stats just confirm that this is a team game and that one player can't do it by themselves. Oh, and that the coaching absolutely sucked between 1995 and 1998.


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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
They're honouring Mats Sundin the player, not all of the teams he played for. He was an elite player who lead this Leafs team for many years. Sometimes he was the best player on a good team, other times he was the best player on a bad team, but he always seemed to be our best player. You don't seem to understand why they're honouring Sundin.

My stats were too lay claim that he was not the best player when we went on those runs a few years ago. The best player on those teams were the goaltenders, Curtis Joseph followed by Ed Belfour. I think the stats before and after (Raycroft/Toskalol) back that claim up.

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03-29-2011, 04:20 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by shack23 View Post
In the summer of 1980, after watching the leafs slide a few points backward, Harold ''the talking ass'' Ballard decided it was time for a house cleaning. At the end of the previous season he fired both Roger Neilson and Jim Gregory. That summer he hired Punch Imlach as G.M. that was the beginning of the end of the Leafs to this day. Imlach being from the old school ,wanted complete control of the team,but by that time Sittler had been given a free hand by the previous coaches and figured that he should have a say in matters also. Imlach couldn't change and Sittler refused to relinquish the power he had acquired. Right or wrong, Imlach didn't see Sittler as his kind of captain and wanted immediate changes. After some very heated and public arguments between the two over the first few months, Imlach tried to pull the trigger on a trade involving Sittler. But unbeknown to Imlach Sittler had a no trade contract and could not me moved. Imlach made several attempts in trying to, convince Sittler to leave, but to no avail. Knowing that he couldn't move Sittler, Imlach went into complete demolition mode. He started by trading Sittlers best friends Pat Boutette, then Lanny McDonald was next. it didn't stop there and players like Tiger Williams , Joel Quinville and Jerrry Buttler and a host of others were dealt away. Sittler cut the '' C '' from his sweater in protest. The battling went on for two years until Imlach was felled from a heart attack. After Imlach's death ,Sittler tried to smooth things over with Ballard and tried to get an extension on his existing contract along with a big raise. But Ballard held fast and finally Sittler tired from the fight, was given a letter from his doctor for exhaustion and left the team . This time he agreed to a trade and was dealt to the Flyers for a low draft pick and a guy named Rich Costello. Sittler spent a couple of productive years with the Flyers, but on the day HE says , that he was to be named captain of the Flyers , he was suddenly dealt to the Red Wings . At first Sittler refused the move to Detroit but again ,a pay raise convinced him to move. Sittlers final season in Detroit was a disaster, Playing on the fourth line and sometimes not at all. Im not putting all the blame on Sittler or Sundin. All i know for sure is that by them both refusing a move, has allowed me the opportunity to watch some pretty ****** hockey over the last thirty years. I have read both the Imlach and Sittler autobiography's . When i first read Imlachs book, being a big Sittler fan i thought that he was full of ****. No way Darryl acted this way. But reading Sittlers autobiography was a revelation, Not only did he admit to leading the players away from management, but he stood by and watched this team torn to ribbons.


Thanks for that post man I never knew any of this......a NTC in 1980 who would have thunk it!

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03-29-2011, 04:21 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Whether Sittler waived his NTC or not the team was destined to be bad for a long time because of the way that Ballard ran the team. An older fan should know that.
An older fan DOES know that. and yes i agree completely

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03-29-2011, 04:28 PM
  #275
Stephen
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Originally Posted by 705techno View Post
My stats were too lay claim that he was not the best player when we went on those runs a few years ago. The best player on those teams were the goaltenders, Curtis Joseph followed by Ed Belfour. I think the stats before and after (Raycroft/Toskalol) back that claim up.
If the difference between the 2004 Leafs and 2006 Leafs was simply goaltending maybe you'd have a point, but losing Leetch, Nolan, Mogilny, Nieuwendyk and Roberts probably had more to do with the Leafs losing than Sundin not being the best player on the team...

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