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Leafs to honour Sundin next season

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Old
03-26-2011, 10:03 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Joey Hoser View Post
You know, I really don't want to be offensive, but honestly, if you think that Sundin not wanting to be traded for the last few weeks of the season trumps his 13 seasons, 10+ years of captaincy, and being the team's all-time leading scorer, then you are in fact brain dead or a lesser fan. It's so unbelievably petty.
See?

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03-26-2011, 10:05 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by 705techno View Post
See?
See what? You said you didn't understand, so I explained it concisely.

I mean, if you would have preferred he let himself be traded, then fair enough. I actually agree. But that is minuscule in importance when you put it against what he was to the franchise for over a decade.


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03-26-2011, 10:07 AM
  #153
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he did his part to not deserve to be traded

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03-26-2011, 10:09 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Joey Hoser View Post
See what? You said you didn't understand, so I explained it concisely.
No, you explained your viewpoint, and within it slagged anyone who didn't agree with it, which is the point of my original post.

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03-26-2011, 10:13 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by 705techno View Post
No, you explained your viewpoint, and within it slagged anyone who didn't agree with it, which is the point of my original post.
This isn't a subjective situation that can go either way depending on your opinion. Not wanting to be traded for Grabovski and Chris Higgings isn't as important as what he was to the this team for over a decade.

If you didn't like Sundin for other reasons, fair enough. But if this is what does it for you, you're petty and a lesser fan. I really don't see a way around it.


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03-26-2011, 12:58 PM
  #156
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Techno, play the victim all you want, you're the one who made a Gravol joke towards the highest scoring Leaf of all time. Yeah, he made a decision that a lot of people didn't like, myself included, but that doesn't just erase the other 13 seasons when he was everything to the Leafs.

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03-26-2011, 03:04 PM
  #157
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should hang it up vs Ottawa, how could they do otherwise?

Sundin with the Leafs will always be linked to playoffs vs the Sens in my mind.

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03-26-2011, 03:41 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by naturalnumbas View Post
should hang it up vs Ottawa, how could they do otherwise?

Sundin with the Leafs will always be linked to playoffs vs the Sens in my mind.
Have to agree here, George.

Ottawa or Montreal. Really shouldn't be any other options.

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03-26-2011, 03:57 PM
  #159
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About time

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03-26-2011, 05:26 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Joey Hoser View Post
This isn't a subjective situation that can go either way depending on your opinion. Not wanting to be traded for Grabovski and Chris Higgings isn't as important as what he was to the this team for over a decade.

If you didn't like Sundin for other reasons, fair enough. But if this is what does it for you, you're petty and a lesser fan. I really don't see a way around it.
It's a hockey argument; it's ALWAYS subjective. Nobody's arguing the facts here. Sundin clocked a lot of points and was in Toronto a long time. He had some great games, had real impact on the lineup for many years.

But some people have real problems with him refusing a deal that would have accelerated a rebuild. He could have done that, then come back in the summer for a farewell year or two with a much better team on the rise. And, sorry, it's a fair opinion. Why does that entitle loyalists to throw out insults?

I don't really care either way, because I never liked Sundin during his entire tenure. I never got over the trade, because getting rid of Clark and Lefebvre destroyed the 93-94 Cup run teams for a guy who just didn't fit in with the roster back then. I still think the Leafs just needed to sign Bernie Nicholls as the number-two centre in the summer of 94 and otherwise keep the lineup intact. If he'd come in and had the same next couple of PPG seasons he had in Chicago, the Leafs might have won a Cup in 94 or 95. Losing Clark's impact up front and Lefebvre's steadying work in the back end just killed that team, which never recovered and led to Burns and Fletcher being canned in pretty short order.

Anyways, long time gone now. Give Sundin his night. Then finally wrap what was in the end a really disappointing era that began with awful hockey in the mid and late 90s, peaked for a few years, and then collapsed again. I'll never be nostalgic for the Sundin era.

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03-26-2011, 05:31 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by ToddGillForever View Post
It's a hockey argument; it's ALWAYS subjective. Nobody's arguing the facts here. Sundin clocked a lot of points and was in Toronto a long time. He had some great games, had real impact on the lineup for many years.

But some people have real problems with him refusing a deal that would have accelerated a rebuild. He could have done that, then come back in the summer for a farewell year or two with a much better team on the rise. And, sorry, it's a fair opinion. Why does that entitle loyalists to throw out insults?

I don't really care either way, because I never liked Sundin during his entire tenure. I never got over the trade, because getting rid of Clark and Lefebvre destroyed the 93-94 Cup run teams for a guy who just didn't fit in with the roster back then. I still think the Leafs just needed to sign Bernie Nicholls as the number-two centre in the summer of 94 and otherwise keep the lineup intact. If he'd come in and had the same next couple of PPG seasons he had in Chicago, the Leafs might have won a Cup in 94 or 95. Losing Clark's impact up front and Lefebvre's steadying work in the back end just killed that team, which never recovered and led to Burns and Fletcher being canned in pretty short order.

Anyways, long time gone now. Give Sundin his night. Then finally wrap what was in the end a really disappointing era that began with awful hockey in the mid and late 90s, peaked for a few years, and then collapsed again. I'll never be nostalgic for the Sundin era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 705techno View Post
ha!

While I thank you for your spelling correction, you must have been too young to remember the chemistry that had developed between Gilmour/Clark in the 92/93 season. Not to mention we gave up a solid dman in Lefebvre to aquire Sundin.


We got Clark back when he was tired, so that's a moot point; a kamikaze player like that has a shorter career than a horse like Sundin.

He played his heart out for the Leafs while he was here.

Clark was my favorite player of all time, that is why I can never admit we won that trade.

Great minds think alike....


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03-27-2011, 03:30 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Joey Hoser View Post
This isn't a subjective situation that can go either way depending on your opinion. Not wanting to be traded for Grabovski and Chris Higgings isn't as important as what he was to the this team for over a decade.

If you didn't like Sundin for other reasons, fair enough. But if this is what does it for you, you're petty and a lesser fan. I really don't see a way around it.
And the anti Sundid camp are the lesser and unknoledgable fans? How can you sit there barking at us when you don't even know the facts. Sundin for Grabovski and Higgins was in the summer, the season was over. That's what the Canadians gave us for his negotiation rights when he was sill under contract to the leafs. What the unknowledgable and lesser fans are talking about is the trade deadline, You know...that time of year just before playoffs? maybe you've heard of it. That's when they brought back Fletcher to try and get rid of the deadwood and hanger ons. That is where we could have gotten the most value out of him. At that point in his career, he was no longer any use to the Leafs as a player looking forward. The players Fletcher wanted to move were admittedly under no trade contracts, So Sundin led them in refusing to move. That was his and their rights, and i understand that. But us petty and lesser fans were hoping for his cooperation in trying to rebuild a team that by that time was in complete free fall. All the talk of him not wanting to go " because I'm a leaf for life'' was just blowing smoke up your ass. He was only concerned about his own agenda. Its been a long hard road but Burke has finally got this thing back on the rails . The Leafs now have a few talented. young and dedicated players to build with. We would have had so much more with his, and the others help. This is what the " lesser and petty fans cant get over " Seems to me that the true leaf fans are more concerned about the Toronto Maple Leafs as a team, not the name or the number on the back of the sweater .

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03-27-2011, 03:38 AM
  #163
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I would like to see them retire a few jerseys...


Starting with Mats' number 13.

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03-27-2011, 03:42 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by shack23 View Post
And the anti Sundid camp are the lesser and unknoledgable fans? How can you sit there barking at us when you don't even know the facts. Sundin for Grabovski and Higgins was in the summer, the season was over. That's what the Canadians gave us for his negotiation rights when he was sill under contract to the leafs. What the unknowledgable and lesser fans are talking about is the trade deadline, You know...that time of year just before playoffs? maybe you've heard of it. That's when they brought back Fletcher to try and get rid of the deadwood and hanger ons. That is where we could have gotten the most value out of him. At that point in his career, he was no longer any use to the Leafs as a player looking forward. The players Fletcher wanted to move were admittedly under no trade contracts, So Sundin led them in refusing to move. That was his and their rights, and i understand that. But us petty and lesser fans were hoping for his cooperation in trying to rebuild a team that by that time was in complete free fall. All the talk of him not wanting to go " because I'm a leaf for life'' was just blowing smoke up your ass. He was only concerned about his own agenda. Its been a long hard road but Burke has finally got this thing back on the rails . The Leafs now have a few talented. young and dedicated players to build with. We would have had so much more with his, and the others help. This is what the " lesser and petty fans cant get over " Seems to me that the true leaf fans are more concerned about the Toronto Maple Leafs as a team, not the name or the number on the back of the sweater .
To be honest, most of the anti-Sundin crowd just sound like a bunch of babies crying because they didn't get their own way.

We really have no reliable information on what the Leafs could have gotten for Sundin. They could have just as easily traded him for players that didn't work out. Would it have been nice if Sundin could have been traded for parts that would help the rebuild. Sure. But that turned out not to be possible. You accept it and move on. What good does holding a grudge do? It's really kind of childish, in my opinion.

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03-27-2011, 03:46 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by goleafsgo0293 View Post
I would like to see them retire a few jerseys...


Starting with Mats' number 13.
Why? Honouring makes so much more sense. I don't get why people think that someone should never wear a great player's number again. It just seems silly to me. Numbers are just a way to help people tell one player from another. That's it.

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03-27-2011, 04:38 AM
  #166
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This is awesome news.

I still remember how excited I was with the trade (Sundin had led Quebec with 114 points in his third season), even though it was tough seeing Wendel go. Got my Sundin jersey in '96 and never regretted it.

I remember talking to a Swede about Sundin, around 1999, and how so many Toronto fans had an issue with him. Don't think I'd call it racism, as much as the traditional Canadian view of Europeans as incapable of leading teams, incapable of being tough, and certainly not worthy of being the Leafs' captain. I remember some people actually whistling/booing Sundin at the ceremony going from Maple Leaf Gardens to the ACC. I remember being at a game with some old idiot behind me talking loudly to his grandson about how he just didn't like Sundin, even with me wearing my jersey right in front of him.

Sundin was never bad management or cheap ownership. To have an issue with him because of a trade that probably deprived him of Cups in Colorado and the chance to play with superstar wingers his entire career is ridiculous, I think. Hard to know how the team would've done in 94-95 without the trade, but I wouldn't assume that the Leafs were likely to win it. It was management and cheap ownership that chose not to pick up Nicholls or any other players who might've helped. Sundin was still being tried as a winger at this point anyway, so Nicholls would've fit in, and there was obviously no salary cap to worry about. It was bad management and cheap ownership that allowed the team to decline very quickly between '95 and '98.

I can still list the whole '93 playoff roster off the top of my head, and this is still my favourite Leafs lineup. But Sundin is my favourite player of all-time, and personally I was shocked with how MLSE handled things. To me, Sundin wanted to retire a Leaf, and had been reassured by people like Salming that staying in Toronto was better than going elsewhere to try and win a Cup. Instead of dealing with this in private meetings, MLSE deliberately made the whole thing public to pressure the Muskoka Five into leaving, and managed to tarnish his reputation by making him look like a selfish idiot, which is unfortunately still the perception of a lot of Toronto fans. Personally, I was happy he stayed, even though we would've gotten a lot for him...Hossa got a return of Armstrong, Christensen, Esposito, and a draft pick. MLSE screwed up large though by deciding not to sign him the following year. MLSE should've treated him the way Ottawa is treating Alfredsson right now, or how Detroit treats its players, i.e., with some respect and class. This is how you get free agents to sign with your team.

I never understood why more people here didn't appreciate him the way he is appreciated in Sweden. Even with guys like Lidstrom and Alfredsson and Forsberg on the team, it was Sundin who was captain of the 2006 Olympic team that won Gold.

Obviously just my personal opinion.

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03-27-2011, 10:11 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by shack23 View Post
And the anti Sundid camp are the lesser and unknoledgable fans? How can you sit there barking at us when you don't even know the facts. Sundin for Grabovski and Higgins was in the summer, the season was over. That's what the Canadians gave us for his negotiation rights when he was sill under contract to the leafs. What the unknowledgable and lesser fans are talking about is the trade deadline, You know...that time of year just before playoffs? maybe you've heard of it. That's when they brought back Fletcher to try and get rid of the deadwood and hanger ons. That is where we could have gotten the most value out of him. At that point in his career, he was no longer any use to the Leafs as a player looking forward. The players Fletcher wanted to move were admittedly under no trade contracts, So Sundin led them in refusing to move. That was his and their rights, and i understand that. But us petty and lesser fans were hoping for his cooperation in trying to rebuild a team that by that time was in complete free fall. All the talk of him not wanting to go " because I'm a leaf for life'' was just blowing smoke up your ass. He was only concerned about his own agenda. Its been a long hard road but Burke has finally got this thing back on the rails . The Leafs now have a few talented. young and dedicated players to build with. We would have had so much more with his, and the others help. This is what the " lesser and petty fans cant get over " Seems to me that the true leaf fans are more concerned about the Toronto Maple Leafs as a team, not the name or the number on the back of the sweater .
First of all, what facts exactly did I get wrong?

And I am well aware of why people would be upset with Sundin. I even agreed earlier that I would have liked to see him traded as well.

It the end it just isn't as important as what he was to this team, by a huge margin. Stop crying.

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03-27-2011, 11:05 AM
  #168
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03-27-2011, 11:23 AM
  #169
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Originally Posted by shack23 View Post
Blood and Guts.
So they led us to blood and guts? That's funny, I always thought the goal was to win the Cup.


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03-27-2011, 11:28 AM
  #170
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They should wait until Quebec is back and visiting.
I00% agree with this suggestion. There Is not a snow balls hope in hell that Quebec gets another franchise in the N,H.L. ever!! which coincides exactly with the time frame that Sundin should be honoured.

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03-27-2011, 12:14 PM
  #171
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To be honest, most of the anti-Sundin crowd just sound like a bunch of babies crying because they didn't get their own way.
They are a confused bunch. When they aren't diminishing his contributions to the Leafs they are telling us that the return for him as a 37 year old rental would have set the Leafs up for years.

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03-27-2011, 06:40 PM
  #172
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They are a confused bunch. When they aren't diminishing his contributions to the Leafs they are telling us that the return for him as a 37 year old rental would have set the Leafs up for years.
Grabovsky and Chris Higgins, if i recall correctly. What a bounty...

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03-27-2011, 10:51 PM
  #173
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I seriously don't understand the hate for Mats after all this time. Was I mad at the time he refused to waive? Yes, I was, but I also respected his decision. BUT THAT WAS 3 FRIGGIN YEARS AGO. Why is it that after all this time people can't forget one thing he did and yet at the same time throw 13 years of captaincy and consistent hockey down the crapper just for that one thing.

The reality is, the man had a NTC, and he had every right to use it, and he did. I don't hold it against him after 3 friggin years. He had his reasons and he is entitled to them, whether you agree with his reasons or not. His personal life and personal decisions are not entitled to you; his on ice play however, you're entitled to, and no one can deny the guy gave it a consistent effort game in and game out.

I mean seriously, one of the greatest leafs, and people hate him because he refused to waive his NTC and then went to Vancouver... WOW. Get over it people.


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03-28-2011, 12:33 AM
  #174
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I seriously don't understand the hate for Mats after all this time. Was I mad at the time he refused to waive? Yes, I was, but I also respected his decision. BUT THAT WAS 3 FRIGGIN YEARS AGO. Why is it that after all this time people can't forget one thing he did and yet at the same time throw 13 years of captaincy and consistent hockey down the crapper just for that one thing.

The reality is, the man had a NTC, and he had every right to use it, and he did. I don't hold it against him after 3 friggin years. He had his reasons and he is entitled to them, whether you agree with his reasons or not. His personal life and personal decisions are not entitled to you; his on ice play however, you're entitled to, and no one can deny the guy gave it a consistent effort game in and game out.

I mean seriously, one of the greatest leafs, and people hate him because he refused to waive his NTC and then went to Vancouver... WOW. Get over it people.
Some people are just incapable of letting grudges pass, even over minor things. It's sad really because that is a terrible trait to carry through life. Otherwise, I would have to say that most of these guys that still hate on Sundin probably never liked him in the first place (which is a possibility).

The sense of entitlement that these anti-Sundin guys feel they had to dictate his actions was completely unfounded. After the trade and even up until now, they feel they are entitled to judge his subjective motivations as if they know the ins and outs of his decision. It's downright pathetic.

Get over yourselves.

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03-28-2011, 01:09 AM
  #175
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Sundin sucks

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