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Old
05-16-2011, 06:54 PM
  #751
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
Fehr might produce in that role. Jones already has.
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post

And the Fleischmann comparison isn't truly fair. It wasn't all about minutes there, it was also him moving back to wing and getting to play with a center like Matt Duchene. And for the record, David Jones was his opposite winger most of the time (though Hejduk also saw action with Flash and Dutchy).
This. I get that the trade isn't necessarily practical, however that was my pov as well.

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05-16-2011, 08:03 PM
  #752
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To add, Flash also went to system which was essentially our old one.

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05-16-2011, 09:44 PM
  #753
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
Fehr might produce in that role. Jones already has.
Fehr produced well above last year what Jones produced this year when ice time is considered. Is your memory really that short?

And I should point out that on bad teams someone has to score. After the fire sale Jeff Halpern was better than a point a game player down the stretch. Because of that was he a number 1 centerman in anyone's opinion?

Was Jones a good player getting an opportunity on a poor team or an ok player getting more ice time than he really deserved because he was on a bad team?

And I'm sorry, the difference between playing 14 minutes and 18+ minutes as an NHL forward is huge. To not recognize that that played a major role in Flieschmann being the player he was in Colorado compared to DC is to not understand the game. Playing a preferred position is something but when you have the talent it is mostly about minutes. Fehr plays 12 minutes for the Caps while Jones plays 5 minutes more for the Avs. That is an unarguable huge difference.

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05-16-2011, 09:58 PM
  #754
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Originally Posted by 442 View Post
[B]

This. I get that the trade isn't necessarily practical, however that was my pov as well.
What did Fehr do last year? Did he produce? Did he produce well above the level Jones did this year when ice time is considered? How often was he playing with a Matt Duchene level player while he was doing it?

Every year decent players on bad teams always produce well over their actual rate as they get well over the ice time they would get on good teams and people who don't understand how things work fawn over them as a result. Why? It is the same lack of understanding that made some feel Zubrus was a 1st line centerman or Clark a 30 goal winger on anything more than a bad team.

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05-16-2011, 10:03 PM
  #755
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Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
Fehr produced well above last year what Jones produced this year when ice time is considered. Is your memory really that short?
When ice time is considered.

We already know that Jones can put up 27 goals if given top 6 ice time. We don't know how much, or if, Fehr's production will increase in that role. That was my point. Teams don't win based on who's more productive per ice time, they win based on who actually scores more. As much as people love to talk about production per ice time, the relationship is not linear.

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And I should point out that on bad teams someone has to score. After the fire sale Jeff Halpern was better than a point a game player down the stretch. Because of that was he a number 1 centerman in anyone's opinion?

Was Jones a good player getting an opportunity on a poor team or an ok player getting more ice time than he really deserved because he was on a bad team?
Colorado's offense wasn't the issue. They had guys like Duchene, Hejduk, and Stastny to score goals for them. And part of a season from Fleischmann and Stewart. It's not as if there was anemic offense in Denver where they were force feeding to Jones.

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And I'm sorry, the difference between playing 14 minutes and 18+ minutes as an NHL forward is huge. To not recognize that that played a major role in Flieschmann being the player he was in Colorado compared to DC is to not understand the game. Playing a preferred position is something but when you have the talent it is mostly about minutes. Fehr plays 12 minutes for the Caps while Jones plays 5 minutes more for the Avs. That is an unarguable huge difference.
And to claim that teams pay for production per ice time in trades is not understanding how trades work. I'm not arguing which player is better, I'm arguing who is worth more. The guy who put up 27 goals this year is worth more than the guy who put up 10 goals this year. Flat out.

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Old
05-16-2011, 10:57 PM
  #756
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wondering, do you think you would enjoy your season tickets if you were surrounded by several fans the mercilessly berate the team from opening face off to final horn. a few even throwing batteries at the team?

your suggestion would be,.....dont go to the games?

anyway. you're right. if i dont want to read the consistant trashing and bashing of the team, i should stay away from the boards.
back when Verizon Center 1st opened there was a guy a few seats down from us like that - i just gave him #### for it... my suggestion would be to change your seats if its a huge deal ... or throw batteries back at them

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05-17-2011, 02:47 AM
  #757
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Over Under?
on how many swedish meatballs Backstrom eats this summer?
on how many embarrassing photos of Green pop up on the internet this summer?
on the amount of excuses George, Ted and BB make for this years yearly choke?
how many rookies make the Capitals out of camp next year?
how many times Bruce gets out coached next season?

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Old
05-17-2011, 03:29 AM
  #758
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Originally Posted by CapsGreat08AO View Post
Over Under?
on how many swedish meatballs Backstrom eats this summer?
on how many embarrassing photos of Green pop up on the internet this summer?
on the amount of excuses George, Ted and BB make for this years yearly choke?
how many rookies make the Capitals out of camp next year?
how many times Bruce gets out coached next season?
Remember you have to use halfs for most of those numbers.

So. 20.5, 1.5, 199,484.5, 2.5, 34.5

Under, Over, Under, Over, Under.

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05-17-2011, 06:42 AM
  #759
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Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
What did Fehr do last year? Did he produce? Did he produce well above the level Jones did this year when ice time is considered? How often was he playing with a Matt Duchene level player while he was doing it?

Every year decent players on bad teams always produce well over their actual rate as they get well over the ice time they would get on good teams and people who don't understand how things work fawn over them as a result. Why? It is the same lack of understanding that made some feel Zubrus was a 1st line centerman or Clark a 30 goal winger on anything more than a bad team.
I get what you're saying, that it might be situation-based but how long do we keep giving Fehr the benefit of the doubt. I know his TOI / G was among tops the last year or 2 .... but there's a reason he's not getting more ice time .... right? If he warranted the top line spot and more ice time, he would've replaced Knuble on the first line when he struggled .... instead it was Chimmy.

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05-17-2011, 07:27 AM
  #760
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I dont think you can read too much into Fehr's TOI. Bruce obviously keeps him on a short leash, no patience to try him for more than a period up top. ALL year. Bruce's problem, he waits until the playoffs to try him there. Its foolish and an unreal expectation thinking he will bond with money bag meatballs and Ovi out of the blue. It's not like they had been on the PP all year together. Or in years past.

I think his recurring shoulder injuries have Bruce just fed up with Fehr. George should consider moving Fehr since retaining Bruce appears to be a high priority to George. And because it appears to me Fehr's shoulders are never going to be right again. Our RW depth is getting thin. Fehr appears on the outs. Gordon a free agent. Semin a perma flight risk. Old father time will one day slow down and retire.


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Old
05-17-2011, 07:38 AM
  #761
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Originally Posted by 442 View Post
I get what you're saying, that it might be situation-based but how long do we keep giving Fehr the benefit of the doubt. I know his TOI / G was among tops the last year or 2 .... but there's a reason he's not getting more ice time .... right? If he warranted the top line spot and more ice time, he would've replaced Knuble on the first line when he struggled .... instead it was Chimmy.
Oh without a doubt Fehr is not thought of too highly by Boudreau for whatever reason and I honestly don't expect that to change as long as he is running things from behind the bench.

I am not saying I think Fehr is worth more than Jones or that he is a better player I am more taking issue with the idea that their values aren't even close. Jones has played 1 full NHL season and got a good amount of ice time on a bad team and produced decently well. He would not have gotten that same amount of ice time on a good team like the Caps and thus his production would have been less. How much? Who knows. Fehr had a similarly productive season last year.

They are similar players even going as far as each having missed a lot of time over the last few years because of injuries and IMO have similar value as players' value is not only about what they did most recently.

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05-17-2011, 08:26 AM
  #762
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Oh without a doubt Fehr is not thought of too highly by Boudreau for whatever reason and I honestly don't expect that to change as long as he is running things from behind the bench.

I am not saying I think Fehr is worth more than Jones or that he is a better player I am more taking issue with the idea that their values aren't even close. Jones has played 1 full NHL season and got a good amount of ice time on a bad team and produced decently well. He would not have gotten that same amount of ice time on a good team like the Caps and thus his production would have been less. How much? Who knows. Fehr had a similarly productive season last year.

They are similar players even going as far as each having missed a lot of time over the last few years because of injuries and IMO have similar value as players' value is not only about what they did most recently.
Again, I see where you're coming from .... I just took the 'what have you done for me lately' route and that clearly would benefit Jones in the argument. It's hard not to factor in the plethora of injuries Fehr has had, and that would indeed diminish his value.

Healthy, with the right line-mates and a sufficient amount of ice time, I think Fehr can score 20-25 a year .... unfortunately few hurdles to climb to reach that point. I know it's really only 1 year of legit production of Jones but what Jones DID last year, is what i HOPE Fehr can eventually replicate.

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05-17-2011, 08:47 AM
  #763
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Again, I see where you're coming from .... I just took the 'what have you done for me lately' route and that clearly would benefit Jones in the argument. It's hard not to factor in the plethora of injuries Fehr has had, and that would indeed diminish his value.

Healthy, with the right line-mates and a sufficient amount of ice time, I think Fehr can score 20-25 a year .... unfortunately few hurdles to climb to reach that point. I know it's really only 1 year of legit production of Jones but what Jones DID last year, is what i HOPE Fehr can eventually replicate.
But when assessing Jones' value you can't ignore that the guy only played 63 games combined over the 2 seasons before this last one. Over the last 3 seasons, even with as many games as he has missed, Fehr has played 42 games more than Jones and over that time period their production is pretty similar.

Frankly a guy like Fehr is a guy I would think Colorado would be interested in acquiring, especially after the success they had plugging Fleischmann into their top 6 from a non regular top 6 spot on the Caps over the previous few years. Would it make any sense for them to deal Jones to get him? Not really unless it is a much bigger deal to fill a couple other holes.

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05-17-2011, 09:05 AM
  #764
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But when assessing Jones' value you can't ignore that the guy only played 63 games combined over the 2 seasons before this last one. Over the last 3 seasons, even with as many games as he has missed, Fehr has played 42 games more than Jones and over that time period their production is pretty similar.

Frankly a guy like Fehr is a guy I would think Colorado would be interested in acquiring, especially after the success they had plugging Fleischmann into their top 6 from a non regular top 6 spot on the Caps over the previous few years. Would it make any sense for them to deal Jones to get him? Not really unless it is a much bigger deal to fill a couple other holes.
I don't know much about the early years for Jones, my assumption is that he hasn't played as many games due to a lack of roster spot instead of injuries. The injuries for Fehr without question diminish his value on the open / trade market.

One thing we do agree on is that it doesn't make sense for a 1-1 type swap.

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05-17-2011, 09:17 AM
  #765
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Originally Posted by 442 View Post
I don't know much about the early years for Jones, my assumption is that he hasn't played as many games due to a lack of roster spot instead of injuries. The injuries for Fehr without question diminish his value on the open / trade market.

One thing we do agree on is that it doesn't make sense for a 1-1 type swap.
He played NCAA hockey for three years after being drafted, which kept him off of professional rosters until 2007. He split time between the AHL and NHL that year, and has been on Colorado's roster ever since. Injuries did plague him, but he's coming off of a healthy season, rather than heading into the off-season requiring surgery.

David Jones' value is definitely reduced by his injury history. But Fehr is currently injured (in addition to his injury history), which destroys even more trade value.

Colorado might have interest in Fehr given their lack of depth on the wings, especially if they're sending Jones our way in a trade. But I'm not sure they want to jump on another injury-riddled winger (they already have Mueller and the last two wingers we sent them had surprise medical conditions).

Without the Stastny and Green aspects of the trade, I pitched a trade revolving around a goalie (they seemed most interested in Holtby) for Jones. Some wanted Fehr in return as well just to keep their winger depth somewhat intact, some didn't really care and would have just preferred to draft Landeskog and/or Armia to bolster their winger pool.

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05-17-2011, 09:37 AM
  #766
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I don't know much about the early years for Jones, my assumption is that he hasn't played as many games due to a lack of roster spot instead of injuries. The injuries for Fehr without question diminish his value on the open / trade market.
Jones' injury history from TSN:

2011/04/08 Missed 1 game (leg injury).
2011/04/07 Leg injury, day-to-day.
2011/02/05 Missed 1 game (shoulder injury).
2011/01/31 Shoulder injury, sidelined indefinitely.
2010/11/12 Missed 3 games (hand injury).
2010/11/06 Hand injury, day-to-day.
2010/10/23 Missed 1 game (forearm injury).
2010/10/21 Forearm injury, day-to-day.
2010/04/24 Missed the last 55 games of the regular season and 6 playoff games (torn left ACL).
2009/11/29 Torn left ACL, remainder of the season.

2009/10/12 Missed 4 games (chest injury).
2009/09/30 Chest injury, sidelined indefinitely.
2009/04/12 Missed the last 34 games of the regular season (shoulder surgery).
2009/02/01 Shoulder surgery, remainder of the season.

2009/01/29 Shoulder injury, day-to-day.
2009/01/27 Missed 4 games (back injury).
2009/01/15 Back injury, day-to-day.

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05-17-2011, 09:40 AM
  #767
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
Without the Stastny and Green aspects of the trade, I pitched a trade revolving around a goalie (they seemed most interested in Holtby) for Jones. Some wanted Fehr in return as well just to keep their winger depth somewhat intact, some didn't really care and would have just preferred to draft Landeskog and/or Armia to bolster their winger pool.
If the Avs don't draft whoever is left between Nugent-Hopkins and Larsson I will be shocked.

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05-17-2011, 09:43 AM
  #768
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OT: Via @dchesnokov, former Cap and current 'Cane Oskar Osala has signed with the KHL.

Some trade that was ....

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Old
05-17-2011, 10:17 AM
  #769
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Holtby & Neuvirth should be the untouchable goalies IMO. Shop Varly around.

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05-17-2011, 10:41 AM
  #770
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Jokinen's hitting free agency, as well as Pitkanen according to the Hurricanes GM.

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05-17-2011, 11:59 AM
  #771
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Jones has an injury history. Fehr has an injury history and is injured now. You don't give up as much for a guy who's about to have surgery as you would for one that's not. Additionally, Jones' ACL injury was a pretty freak accident from a bad collision on the ice, while Fehr's shoulder has been a constant problem.

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If the Avs don't draft whoever is left between Nugent-Hopkins and Larsson I will be shocked.
They have another pick at #11, where they could potentially get Armia. And there are many Avs fan who do prefer Landeskog to Larsson, though a majority do seem to want Larsson.

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05-17-2011, 01:41 PM
  #772
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DCSportsBog - via Twitter

Brooks Laich to Vogs: "To me it doesn’t feel like I’ve played my last game as a Capital."

Laich on leaving DC: "I don’t foresee that in my brain. It doesn’t process like that."

Take it fwiw.

http://video.capitals.nhl.com/videoc...d=32&id=114584

Love the bit about the PK, crediting Dean E.


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05-17-2011, 01:56 PM
  #773
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05-17-2011, 02:17 PM
  #774
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05-17-2011, 02:19 PM
  #775
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I'm so ambivalent about this offseason...I really just don't care anymore. Unfollowed a bunch of hockey types on twitter earlier. Felt good.

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