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ATD 2011 Draft Thread IX

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Old
03-27-2011, 07:29 PM
  #251
Leafs Forever
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
That's why I said "pretty good" and not "excellent"... I also didn't provide everything I found... that's what full bios are for.
Well, "pretty good" implies there is some good evidence for his intangibles, which I don't really see in the post. I might buy "unknown" or "average" or "might be good". I eagerly await your bio.

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03-27-2011, 07:32 PM
  #252
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Lol. If Dubbie Kerr is pretty good at everything based on zero evidence, then I guess some of my guys are down right elite at everything.

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03-27-2011, 07:35 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
Lol. If Dubbie Kerr is pretty good at everything based on zero evidence, then I guess some of my guys are down right elite at everything.
I knew this was coming. LOL

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03-27-2011, 07:36 PM
  #254
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Er, i don't think he and Clark are that close. Wendel was a more devastating physical player and fighter, a better offensive player and a much better goal scorer. Hugely clutch in important games too, and an amazing leader. None of the attitude questions that followed Corson around either. As such, I think he's a guy who can play a top-6 role in this, while I don't think Corson can.

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03-27-2011, 07:48 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
His best six "percentage of #1" scores (remember, I use #1 when talking about pre-merger players) are 100, 88, 83, 79, 57, 45. So he has a peak far superior to the likes of Eddie Oatman (75 72 69 67 66 60), Jack Darragh (73 65 62 60 57 54), Smokey Harris (100 72 72 69 57 57), Harry Hyland (96 93 85 63 63 50) , and about the same as Odie Cleghorn (97 82 76 68 67 56); it's just that the dropoff from his best seasons was steeper for him than it was for most top wingers of his generation.

As an added bonus, he was known as the most handsome man in hockey!

If you have been paying attention, you know that I am speaking of Albert "Dubbie" Kerr, LW.




*there are actually a few others in their league, but I just don't see them as 4th liners... unless they fall REALLY far.
As an owner of both Hyland and Darragh I feel the need to respond to this.

Please explain to me how that percentage is "far superior" to Hyland. Hyland's 2nd best, 3rd best, and 5th and 6th best seasons are better than Kerr's. I would in fact say that Hyland's numbers look better there. Now, Hyland did go about 300 picks higher, so that's why this is a solid pick. But still, let's not pretend his numbers are superior to Hyland's.

Now when it comes to Darragh, you have to remember that Darragh was for the most part a Rover on those same Senators teams, and especially in the Stanley Cup Challenges, was responsible for anchoring the team defensively. So obviously Darragh's numbers are going to be much lower than Kerr's, so I'm not entirely sure they're comparable players.

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03-27-2011, 07:50 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
I don't think I'd consider him a "pretty good at everything" based on the evidence you showed and was shown last MLD; one quote on being a "brilliant all around performer", which doesn't have much context or specification if memory serves, doesn't cut it for me. He is, however, an offensive dynamo and a good pick. But I won't see him as much more than an offensive fourth liner unless some more/better evidence is displayed.
Boy Wonder and I had Kerr in last year's MLD, and unless 70s really shows me anything new, he's an offense-only guy who is fairly balanced between goals and assists.

Still, he's in all likelihood the very last LW available who would even be passable on a scoring line.

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03-27-2011, 07:57 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Er, i don't think he and Clark are that close. Wendel was a more devastating physical player and fighter, a better offensive player and a much better goal scorer. Hugely clutch in important games too, and an amazing leader. None of the attitude questions that followed Corson around either. As such, I think he's a guy who can play a top-6 role in this, while I don't think Corson can.



Corson Captained two seperate NHL teams, has more career fights then Wendel, was known as a great physical hitter and has intangibles through and through. The only difference between Clark and Corson is Clark is the better goal scorer. Is it worth 330 picks in the ATD absolutely not.

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03-27-2011, 08:06 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post



Corson Captained two seperate NHL teams, has more career fights then Wendel, was known as a great physical hitter and has intangibles through and through. The only difference between Clark and Corson is Clark is the better goal scorer. Is it worth 330 picks in the ATD absolutely not.
That doesn't necessarily make him a better leader than Wnedel, nor does larger number of fights in a larger career make him a better fighter, nor does his good physical intangibles make him better than Wnedel in that sense.

That being said, likely not the gap, but I think that's much more to do with Clark being overrated than Corson being underrated.

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03-27-2011, 08:07 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
As an owner of both Hyland and Darragh I feel the need to respond to this.

Please explain to me how that percentage is "far superior" to Hyland. Hyland's 2nd best, 3rd best, and 5th and 6th best seasons are better than Kerr's. I would in fact say that Hyland's numbers look better there. Now, Hyland did go about 300 picks higher, so that's why this is a solid pick. But still, let's not pretend his numbers are superior to Hyland's.

Now when it comes to Darragh, you have to remember that Darragh was for the most part a Rover on those same Senators teams, and especially in the Stanley Cup Challenges, was responsible for anchoring the team defensively. So obviously Darragh's numbers are going to be much lower than Kerr's, so I'm not entirely sure they're comparable players.
- You are right re: Hyland. I filled in the numbers after I wrote out the sentence, and Hyland clearly did better than I assumed he would initially. In fact, Kerr's top-6 scores there, are just two total points higher than Hyland's, so it's dead wrong to say he had a "far superior" peak. But it was equal. He should have been mentioned along with Cleghorn and not Oatman/Darragh/Harris.

- about Darragh - did playing rover really hinder his, or anyone else's offense? I've seen too many instances of super high-scoring rovers to come to that conclusion without better evidence. And wasn't Nighbor really responsible for anchoring the Sens defensively?

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Boy Wonder and I had Kerr in last year's MLD, and unless 70s really shows me anything new, he's an offense-only guy who is fairly balanced between goals and assists.
But it's not like you really looked, right? Everything I quoted, I found in ten minutes. I assume youd have seen and posted these things if you had looked. I've found a lot more since then too. (I suppose it's possible this is all in newspapers that have been archived only recently...)

I don't need meatheads on my 4th line and I always try to get the best "overall" players but at the same time I don't want guys who stick out as being soft or lazy there either (which is why Kovalev intrigued me so much; he was potentially the best overall player despite his laziness!). Kerr, who seemed to do everything well - skating, passing, shooting, stickhandling, smarts, possibly defense and probably toughness/grit based on PIMs (and I'm not saying he's Oatman v.2.0, but I see little difference between him and Hyland/Cleghorn/Harris overall) won't stand out for those reasons. That's all I wanted. I can take a couple meatheads and grinders now.

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03-27-2011, 08:18 PM
  #260
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Was Corson really a good leader or character guy? He was one of my favourites, but looking back, he was captain of two NHL teams for what amounted to 6 months of play, and I think he undid that resume when he came to Toronto, and there were rumours of a fractured dressing room and he ultimately walked out on them in the playoffs (though a later THN article vouched for his Chrohn's disease-related reasons and I don't know how much of that can be forgiven, but perhaps some)

the way I see Corson is, he had 4 seasons with over 50% of the number 2 scorer (so decent years, but ultimately average for an ATD 4th liner), could play LW and C, was usually dependable defensively, was a very frequent penalty killer, was huge along the boards, physical and fearless, stuck up for teammates and was perhaps the best middleweight fighter of his generation. And I say middleweight because he was definitely a spot-picker. But boy did he kick those spots' *****. He may have been a bit of a headcase. Sometimes he looked psychotic out there, like he was ready to snap. He always seemed to have a nagging injury and played 70+ games just 9 times (plus a full 48 in the lockout year which is like 82). He had excellent glue guy qualities. The five times he scored 50+ points, without looking, I am betting it was as the wingman for a skilled center, whose dirty work he performed.

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Old
03-27-2011, 08:21 PM
  #261
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03-27-2011, 08:24 PM
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post



Corson Captained two seperate NHL teams, has more career fights then Wendel, was known as a great physical hitter and has intangibles through and through. The only difference between Clark and Corson is Clark is the better goal scorer. Is it worth 330 picks in the ATD absolutely not.
Who cares who had more fights? Clark fought more often, he just had a shorter career. And Clark was a better fighter, and he went toe to toe with the true heavyweights of the league all the time. Corson was a good fighter, but he couldn't hang with the heavyweights like Clark could.

Corson captaining two teams is a nice stat. He had the captaincy taken away from him both times before even completing a full season, and I've heard him referred to by some Oilers fans as their worst captain ever.

When Shayne Corson wasn't being bat**** crazy, he was a really good player. But he had a self-destructive streak that followed him everywhere he went. Constantly getting suspended and arrested in Montreal, having well-documented spats with team mates in Edmonton and Toronto, quitting on his team in the middle of a playoff run, etc.

Clark was a better fighter and scorer than Corson, but the differences in those categories pale in comparison to Clark's edge as a leader and teammate.

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03-27-2011, 08:27 PM
  #263
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I did a quick newspaper search very recently. I was thinking about taking him instead of Kerr (.. lol). Anyways, I found the same stuff you found, him being mentioned as a star left wing, or a great left wing, or whatever, and one (and ONLY one) quote pertaining to his all around game, but that's it. Maybe my search terms weren't vague enough to produce more results, but I just have a hard time believing that he was much more than an exceptional scorer.

Also, as far as PIMs, I'd like to see some anecdotal stuff about his supposed toughness. The thing is, I've read that Dunderdale specifically was known for taking a lot of needless and undisciplined penalties while reading about other guys, so I'm starting to think less of using PIMs as a factor for determining toughness. More concrete, anecdotal stuff is far less ambiguous for obvious reasons.

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03-27-2011, 08:28 PM
  #264
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I did a quick newspaper search very recently. I was thinking about taking him instead of Kerr (.. lol). Anyways, I found the same stuff you found, him being mentioned as a star left wing, or a great left wing, or whatever, and one (and ONLY one) quote pertaining to his all around game, but that's it. Maybe my search terms weren't vague enough to produce more results, but I just have a hard time believing that he was much more than an exceptional scorer.

Also, as far as PIMs, I'd like to see some anecdotal stuff about his supposed toughness. The thing is, I've read that Dunderdale specifically was known for taking a lot of needless and undisciplined penalties while reading about other guys, so I'm starting to think less of using PIMs as a factor for determining toughness. More concrete, anecdotal stuff is far less ambiguous for obvious reasons.

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03-27-2011, 08:38 PM
  #265
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All this about Corson not fighting the best of the best is bs. He fought guys like Domi (3x), Brad May, Rob Ray, Joey Kocur etc..

If you want to define a guys career buy his last 3/4 seasons be my guest. He was selected over Clark in one more ASG and other international tournaments for Canada.

If you read the entire arguement I am not saying Corson=Clark, but if Wendel Clark is an accepted 2nd liner Shayne Corson is an elite 4th liner in the same role.

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03-27-2011, 08:44 PM
  #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post

Clark was a better fighter and scorer than Corson, but the differences in those categories pale in comparison to Clark's edge as a leader and teammate.
You have got to be joking me. Unless you were in the dressing room on a daily basis you have no merit whatsoever in claims like this.

Do you personally know and have talked to teammates of these two, or read a newpaper article on one situation in Toronto and stereotype a guy who played over 1200 games in the NHL.


To me your just another keyboard gladitor who for whatever reason feels as though they have the right to idiotic statements like this.

Judging an NHL players ability as a "good teammate" is laughable on all accounts for ANY GM in the ATD.

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03-27-2011, 08:46 PM
  #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
- about Darragh - did playing rover really hinder his, or anyone else's offense? I've seen too many instances of super high-scoring rovers to come to that conclusion without better evidence. And wasn't Nighbor really responsible for anchoring the Sens defensively?
Nighbor didn't get there until 1915. Darragh was responsible for the defense prior to his arrival.

Quote:
The 7-4 score was generous to Galt and Darragh was acknowledged to have been one of the best players on the ice. Three days later the Sens had to defend their championship against the Port Arthur Bearcats after the Bearcats had beaten Prince Albert to earn the right to challenge. This time the Senators swamped Port Arthur 14-4, with Marty Walsh scoring 10 goals and Darragh anchoring the defense once again.
He was not of the super high scoring rover variety, and the Sens prior to Nighbor's arrival deployed him as a more defensive player. After Nighbor's arrival he recorded his two best offensive seasons as an older player (for instance, his highest scoring season was his 30 year old season). Had he been in a more offensive capacity, he may have put up higher totals so that's what makes me think these two aren't entirely comparable.

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03-27-2011, 08:49 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Who cares who had more fights? Clark fought more often, he just had a shorter career. And Clark was a better fighter, and he went toe to toe with the true heavyweights of the league all the time. Corson was a good fighter, but he couldn't hang with the heavyweights like Clark could.

Corson captaining two teams is a nice stat. He had the captaincy taken away from him both times before even completing a full season, and I've heard him referred to by some Oilers fans as their worst captain ever.

When Shayne Corson wasn't being bat**** crazy, he was a really good player. But he had a self-destructive streak that followed him everywhere he went. Constantly getting suspended and arrested in Montreal, having well-documented spats with team mates in Edmonton and Toronto, quitting on his team in the middle of a playoff run, etc.

Clark was a better fighter and scorer than Corson, but the differences in those categories pale in comparison to Clark's edge as a leader and teammate.
Nice, and you were in the middle of writing this as I made my post.

Quote:
Also, as far as PIMs, I'd like to see some anecdotal stuff about his supposed toughness. The thing is, I've read that Dunderdale specifically was known for taking a lot of needless and undisciplined penalties while reading about other guys, so I'm starting to think less of using PIMs as a factor for determining toughness. More concrete, anecdotal stuff is far less ambiguous for obvious reasons.
It is possible that the PIMs were from crap like that. Corson was like that too... a little crazy and a little retailtory. So be it. Either way, that's the kind of game you want from a 4th line, generally. There is a huge correlation between PIMs and toughness overall, so I am comfortable saying that guys like Oatman, Hyland, Ernie Russell and Kerr had some toughness, and that guys like Darragh, Bowie, and Blair Russell didn't. I realize it's not perfect, but neither are the assist stats we use from back then to judge playmakers beyond Taylor. We go with what we've got. If Kerr was conclusively tough, he'd be canonized as a solid 2nd liner already. He's only a "probably" and therefore he lasts until the 700s.

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03-27-2011, 08:50 PM
  #269
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The newest Pirate is Jack Marks



He was a then-big 6'1 180 lbs who was a star in three different leagues in three consecutive seasons. He was a 1st team all-star in the FAHL (1906) as a top-5 scorer as a 20 year old, then the next year a 2nd team all-star in the IHL, top-5 in assists, 23 points in 14 games. Then he was a 1st team all-star the following season in the OPHL with a goal a game average. He was third in CHA scoring before they disbanded in 1910. He then went on the NHA. He had previously scored two goals in a Stanley Cup challenge game loss to the Montreal Wanderers in December of 1906, but his greatest glory was during his six years in the NHA, winning back to back Stanley Cups in 1912 and 1913, awarded two retroSelkes for those two seasons by Ultimate Hockey. As a 27 year old in 1913 he scored 18 goals in 19 games playing right wing on a line with Joe Malone and Tommy Smith. Marks then scored 2 goals in the Stanley Cup championship game win. Then he scored two more goals in a game against Victoria, which was to be a stanley cup challenge but turned into an exhibition affair because Quebec refused to put the cup on the line, and lost to the Western team, bringing much protest and the commitment in following years to make the Stanley Cup challenge an East versus West contest. His career was on an upward arc until this point (from 1906 to 1913), after which he continued to play hockey well into his thirties, no longer as much of a scorer, finishing no better than 11th in 1906. Perhaps these were the years he played the position of defense. It was common for vets to move back to the blueline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Trail Of the Stanley Cup, Vol. 1
He was at his best when he was the regular right wing on a line with Joe Malone and Tommy Smith... he made a nice balance in their combination play and more than his share of backchecking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by loh.net
He was a versatile player who could be effective on defence or at left-wing. He was best known as a goal scorer with a tenacious work ethic in the OPHL and NHA.
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Originally Posted by The Trolley League
While the media was carping on about the dirty play prevalent in the professional leagues, Jack Marks was often praised for propensity to follow the rules. One of the fastest skaters in the OPHL, and a great backchecker, Marks would beat his opponents with his speed rather than with trips or slashes.

Despite his clean play, Marks was a tough player. The one weakness in his game was his shooting ability, it was often said that if he had had a shot like Newsy Lalonde he could have been one of the greatest players of his era.

Note: Past bios have indicated him as a Stanley Cup finalist in 1904 or 1907 but I cannot find anything on that. He did play for New Glasgow in a December 1906 challenge. He is also listed as a Stanley Cup finalist in 1908 in past bios but he was a sub on that Lalonde-led Toronto team that lost to the Montreal Wanderers, so it is misleading to credit him with Stanley Cup finalist play when he was a benchwarmer. He is also accredited with having won the Stanley Cup in 1918 but the experienced vet just played six regular season games and no playoff games and so he is no more than technically a name on the cup that season. So, of any worth, he is a two-time Stanley cup champion (1912, 1913) and a third time Stanley Cup finalist (1906), and a multiple goal scorer two of those three times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord
108 Goals, 22 assists, 130 points, 319 PIM in 167 top-level games
I dunno where these numbers come from, but they are pretty good (even better if factor out his later years, past his prime, when he probably was a blueliner). He can score and take penalties when needed (almost two PIMs/game average!). He seems an ideal backliner, given the quotes about his tenacity, hard work, backchecking, his all-star selections, his stats and his multiple goal scoring in two stanley cup challenge series.


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03-27-2011, 08:53 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
\
Corson captaining two teams is a nice stat. He had the captaincy taken away from him both times before even completing a full season, and I've heard him referred to by some Oilers fans as their worst captain ever.
Yeah, Corson's actually a guy you need good leaders on your team to handle.

I'm sure you remember his issues with teammates in Toronto, arrbez. For Mark, see this thread.

Corson should be judged on his whole career. It had some high points, but had some low points as well.

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03-27-2011, 08:57 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
All this about Corson not fighting the best of the best is bs. He fought guys like Domi (3x), Brad May, Rob Ray, Joey Kocur etc..
Uh huh, and how did he do in those fights? I didn't say he didn't fight heavyweights, I said he couldn't hang with them. I remember him getting pumped a couple times by Domi when he was in Montreal. I remember a vicious beatdown at the hands of Eric Cairns when he was a Leaf. dropyourgloves.com seems to support my suspicion that he lost pretty much every time he fought a true heavyweight. He was a good fighter, but again, he was no Wendel Clark.

You absolutely were smugly inferring that Corson = Clark, and it's just not true. Nobody said Corson wasn't a good 4th liner. I'm just saying he's no Wendel Clark, not by a longshot.

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03-27-2011, 08:59 PM
  #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
You have got to be joking me. Unless you were in the dressing room on a daily basis you have no merit whatsoever in claims like this.

Do you personally know and have talked to teammates of these two, or read a newpaper article on one situation in Toronto and stereotype a guy who played over 1200 games in the NHL.


To me your just another keyboard gladitor who for whatever reason feels as though they have the right to idiotic statements like this.

Judging an NHL players ability as a "good teammate" is laughable on all accounts for ANY GM in the ATD.
If there is evidence all over that Clark was a great teammate and a tremendous leader, and that Corson raised locker room issues, was a nut, and twice had a captaincy taken from him, I think it's a safe assumption to make.

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03-27-2011, 08:59 PM
  #273
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Bill "Red" Hay


At 6'3", 190 lbs, Hay was as tall as Jean Beliveau in the same era.
Hay was the leading regular season scorer on the 1960-61 Stanley Cup Champion Chicago Black Hawks.

HHOF bio:
Quote:
Bill Hay made a quick impression during his first year in the National Hockey League. A thinking man's centre with excellent stickhandling and skating abilities, Hay captured the 1959-60 Calder Memorial Trophy as Rookie-of-the-Year, cementing himself on the club's number one line for years to come.

Bill would spend the next eight years at centre, most of which was spent on, "The Million Dollar Line", between Bobby Hull and Murray Balfour. Hay played in two All-Star Games and in 1961 led the Hawks in scoring with 59 points, setting a team record for assists with 48 and leading the Hawks to their first Stanley Cup since 1938. Following the 1965-66 season, Hay decided to retire to Calgary where he again followed in his father's footsteps working in the oil industry. The Black Hawks were left with a gaping hole at the centre ice position and General Manager, Tommy Ivan, made every conceivable attempt to coax Hay back. Finally he was successful, and Bill finished out the last half of the 1967 season, leading the Hawks to first place overall for the first time in franchise history.

Chicago Blackhawks Legends:
Quote:
The rangy redhead was one of the slickest stickhandlers and playmakers in the NHL. He often "quarterbacked" the Hawks power play and provided fine leadership to the team overall. In only his second season with the team he became the assistant captain. As a sophomore he scored 59 points in 69 games and helped Chicago win the Stanley Cup.

Who's Who in Hockey (Stan Fischler):

Quote:
A center, Hay contributed mightily to the Blackhawks' last Stanley Cup triumph in 1961 and was one of the most effective skaters in Chicago's ice renaissance. His teammate, Stan Mikita, said it best about Bill. "The trick in making us a winner," said Mikita, "was getting the team working - this is where a leader comes in, and Billy Hay was just such a leader."

Montreal Gazette, Feb 21, 1967

Quote:
Hay Made Hawks "Great" Team

The third line was Reay's biggest problem. This was revealed when consistent Red Hay was lured out of retirement last month...The return of Hay, 31, touched off a record Hawk unbeaten streak.

Reay says that the Hawks were only one player short of having a great hockey team "and then Hay came back and he was the one we needed. Any team that can pick up a centre like him in the middle of the season has to consider itself pretty lucky."

The Hawks' basic success in bidding for their first NHL title in 41 years rests with the incredible Mikita and his Scooter line; the continued sharpshooting of Bobby Hull; the improvement of his brother Dennis, making the third line a scoring threat, the return of Hay; fine penalty killing, especially of Hay and Nesterenko; the outstanding goalie duo; and strengthening the defence corps with the addition of Ed van Impe.
Top 30 NHL scorers during Hay's NHL career, from 1959-60 to 1966-67
Rk Player GP G A P ESP PPP SHP ESP/70 PPP/70 SHP/70
1 Bobby Hull 534 339 278 617 439 164 14 58 21 2
2 Gordie Howe 552 231 364 595 374 197 23 47 25 3
3 Stan Mikita 546 214 367 581 398 178 5 51 23 1
4 Norm Ullman 549 223 293 516 387 116 13 49 15 2
5 Andy Bathgate 536 176 338 514 363 150 1 47 20 0
6 Jean Beliveau 487 191 314 505 321 184 0 46 26 0
7 Alex Delvecchio 558 188 295 483 323 142 17 41 18 2
8 Henri Richard 507 178 302 480 391 86 3 54 12 0
9 Frank Mahovlich 537 234 240 474 352 121 1 46 16 0
10 John Bucyk 514 171 256 427 318 105 3 43 14 0
11 Bill Hay 506 113 272 385 275 101 9 38 14 1
12 Murray Oliver 472 147 235 382 294 86 2 44 13 0
13 Dave Keon 472 161 217 378 275 89 14 41 13 2
14 Dean Prentice 500 166 205 371 292 73 5 41 10 1
15 Ken Wharram 517 185 182 367 287 79 1 39 11 0
16 Red Kelly 520 125 241 366 280 78 8 38 11 1
17 Bob Pulford 522 154 195 349 285 41 23 38 5 3
18 Pierre Pilote 517 57 292 349 219 121 9 30 16 1
19 Claude Provost 528 153 192 345 277 57 11 37 8 1
20 Bernie Geoffrion 349 163 182 345 215 129 1 43 26 0
21 George Armstrong 522 137 199 336 252 72 12 34 10 2
22 Bobby Rousseau 421 127 202 329 222 101 6 37 17 1
23 Ralph Backstrom 545 143 183 326 293 32 1 38 4 0
24 Doug Mohns 517 125 196 321 214 102 5 29 14 1
25 Phil Goyette 477 98 216 314 242 71 1 36 10 0
26 Don Marshall 549 142 159 301 226 53 22 29 7 3
27 Bob Nevin 458 126 173 299 221 70 8 34 11 1
28 Don McKenney 416 115 171 286 206 78 2 35 13 0
29 Camille Henry 360 155 123 278 185 93 0 36 18 0
30 Dick Duff 503 124 140 264 208 54 2 29 8 0

Hay was 11th in scoring over this time. He played with Bobby Hull for some of this time, which must have boosted his point totals to some degree, but he's far from the only player on this list to be the defensive conscience for a more skilled linemate.

Why did Bill Hay only play 8 NHL seasons?

He was a Montreal Canadiens prospect as a Regina Pat, but chose to study chemical engineering at Colorado College instead of trying for the NHL. After graduating, he played a year of minor hockey (nobody in those days went from college into the NHL) and then broke in with Chicago at age 24.

He retired at age 31 and went directly into a good job in the oil industry. Tommy Ivan convinced him to come back for one more shot in the second half of the 1967 season, but after that he was done with hockey. He went on to be very successful in the oil industry, and is currently the HHOF president.

Hay was a very good NHL player - he just had other options and other interests.

Random Fact

In 1961-62, Hay had 3 goals and 38 assists at even strength. I don't think any other forward has ever had such an extreme bias towards playmaking in one season at even strength. (It happens sometimes on the power play, where players take on more specific roles.)

Fortunately Hay will be playing with Camille Henry, a man who can finish his passes. Hay's size will also help create space for Camille.


Last edited by overpass: 03-27-2011 at 09:22 PM.
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03-27-2011, 09:19 PM
  #274
TheDevilMadeMe
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I brought up the Clark/corson comparison because Clark is considered an elite fourth liner here, and I wanted to see how corson stacked up to a known commodity.

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03-27-2011, 09:20 PM
  #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
You have got to be joking me. Unless you were in the dressing room on a daily basis you have no merit whatsoever in claims like this.

Do you personally know and have talked to teammates of these two, or read a newpaper article on one situation in Toronto and stereotype a guy who played over 1200 games in the NHL.


To me your just another keyboard gladitor who for whatever reason feels as though they have the right to idiotic statements like this.

Judging an NHL players ability as a "good teammate" is laughable on all accounts for ANY GM in the ATD.
I'll hold you to this next time you try to make any claim about any player's intangibles.

I, however, subscribe to the "where there's smoke, there's fire" method of evaluation:


Shayne Corson career lowlights:

-He was arrested at least once (I think twice), and had a reputation as a terror at the bars. So much so that his coach was once quoted as saying "Shayne Corson can go eat ****" in response to one of his off-ice incidents.

-He was suspended like, idunno, 8 times in his career for incidents such as: kicking a player after a fight he just lost, following an opposing player into the dressing room after he had just been penalized for an intent-to-injure high stick, leaving the bench to start a brawl at the end of a game, crosschecking a guy in the head in the dying seconds of a lost playoff series, suspended by his own team for embarrassing off-ice conduct, etc.

-He was placed in a position to mentor Oilers rookie Jason Arnott. The relationship went south when Corson tried to get the official to change one of Arnott's assists to his, and Arnott called him on it. This led to Corson being stripped of the 'C' in Edmonton 30-something games into the season.

-He was a key member of a notorious dressing-room clique in Toronto, noted for causing plenty of off-ice issues

-He was accused of sleeping with a teammate's wife in Toronto

-He quit on the Leafs in the middle of a playoff series

-Neither of his captaincies lasted a full season

All this on top of plenty of anecdotal evidence of him being a yappy spot-picker.


Not everyone on your team has to be an angel. There's always room for a rogue or two. But don't act like Shayne Corson wasn't a giant d-bag. He was, fully and completely, and it's common knowledge.


Last edited by arrbez: 03-27-2011 at 09:37 PM.
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