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ATD 2011 Draft Thread IX

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Old
03-28-2011, 04:52 PM
  #451
Leafs Forever
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I'm not huge on the Toews, Franzen, and Kesler picks, and though all on the downside, I'm not on low as them as others. Franzen does have the advantage of being able to get used on the wing.

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03-28-2011, 04:57 PM
  #452
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With a last minute complete change of plans. The Mooseheads select F/D Gord Fraser.

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03-28-2011, 04:57 PM
  #453
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How does toews have a better peak than kesler? I'm not as down on the pick as VI (I agree with hedberg that he would make a fine 2nd line center in the MLD).

Franzen isn't really comparable. One of the beat playoff specialists of the past half decade. Sit him on the bench in the regular season and let him get some clutch points from the fourth line in the playoffs.

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03-28-2011, 04:59 PM
  #454
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I think Kesler is better than Toews. He makes a damn fine 4th line C here. Excellent as both a defensive player and penalty killer, adds a ******** of grit, and also provides offense. The guy should be an elite sacred cow checking center before his career is over. One of my favorite active players.

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03-28-2011, 05:00 PM
  #455
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If Bill Barilko can go near #300 why is there a tornado about Kesler/Toews/Franzen etc. after their 3 or 4 very good NHL seasons?

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03-28-2011, 05:00 PM
  #456
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Toews had a better calendar year than kesler. I don't know if I would call that 'peak,'

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03-28-2011, 05:00 PM
  #457
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I don't know why people even take Barilko in the ATD at all. What's so special about him? I get the tragedy factor, but that has nothing to do with his legacy as a player. I think Barilko always goes 100s of picks too early, and should fall to the MLD.

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03-28-2011, 05:01 PM
  #458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoneberg View Post
With a last minute complete change of plans. The Mooseheads select F/D Gord Fraser.
He's a very nice pick; pretty much the equal of Clem Loughin who got picked a while ago, and a find all around D-man.

Though that should be D/F since he spent a lot more time on D.

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03-28-2011, 05:02 PM
  #459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
If Bill Barilko can go near #300 why is there a tornado about Kesler/Toews/Franzen etc. after their 3 or 4 very good NHL seasons?
1) he went too high in all likelihood
2) premium on defensemen

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03-28-2011, 05:02 PM
  #460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
I don't know why people even take Barilko in the ATD at all. What's so special about him? I get the tragedy factor, but that has nothing to do with his legacy as a player. I think Barilko always goes 100s of picks too early, and should fall to the MLD.
He was a star. It's fair to assume that if he wasn't killed he would have gone on to have a HOF (or close) career.

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03-28-2011, 05:02 PM
  #461
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
If Bill Barilko can go near #300 why is there a tornado about Kesler/Toews/Franzen etc. after their 3 or 4 very good NHL seasons?
He gets taken way too high, but it happens every draft and becomes canonized that people don't comment as much on it.

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03-28-2011, 05:03 PM
  #462
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
He was a star. It's fair to assume that if he wasn't killed he would have gone on to have a HOF (or close) career.
But he didn't

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03-28-2011, 05:04 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
How does toews have a better peak than kesler? I'm not as down on the pick as VI (I agree with hedberg that he would make a fine 2nd line center in the MLD).

Franzen isn't really comparable. One of the beat playoff specialists of the past half decade. Sit him on the bench in the regular season and let him get some clutch points from the fourth line in the playoffs.
My thinking was that their regular season peaks would be this year. They will be close offensively, but Toews is definitely getting his opponents top D pairs and Kesler isn't. Give Kesler the edge defensively, but Toews should get serious Selke consideration. They are probably close to even, and even if you have Kesler slightly ahead here, Toews has a much better playoff peak to put him over the top.

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Old
03-28-2011, 05:05 PM
  #464
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
But he didn't
I know, my point exactly lol. He goes 400 spots before Kesler and Toews and yet they spent the same amount of time in the NHL.

Premium on defenceman or not, bit of bias for older players wouldn't you say.

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03-28-2011, 05:06 PM
  #465
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You're cherrpicking one example. Ashbee went very recently

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03-28-2011, 05:07 PM
  #466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
I know, my point exactly lol. He goes 400 spots before Kesler and Toews and yet they spent the same amount of time in the NHL.

Premium on defenceman or not, bit of bias for older players wouldn't you say.
Bias for older players and tragedy stories when his canonicty came to fruition. he has yet to come down to earth, but hopefully he will.

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03-28-2011, 05:08 PM
  #467
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Originally Posted by JohnnyD View Post
We got a lot of flak for the Toews pick and today I see Franzen picked, and Kesler went a while ago. Are their resumes really any better than Toews? All I see is an extra season or two with a lower peak. It would seem to me that these guys would all be in the same tier.
In the case of Kesler, he's already got a very strong resume as an elite defensive forward who offers more offense than a Rick Meagher. In fact, the only thing he's missing on Meagher is a Selke- and he'll probably win it this year:

2007-08: 11th Selke voting
2008-09: 3rd Selke voting
2009-10: 2nd Selke voting
2010-11: Probable Selke winner

Meagher's top finishes were 1,4, 6, 11.

Toews may have both the top individual and team awards you can win, but it occurred in one six-month span and he is neither significantly better offensively than Kesler nor as accomplished defensively (4th, 17th).

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Old
03-28-2011, 05:15 PM
  #468
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Considering toews has never been the center getting the top defensive assignments in chicago, his selke votes are kind of a joke. Hossa > Toews defensively also.

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03-28-2011, 05:20 PM
  #469
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Selke votes in general are kind of a joke... Kesler has taken on a lot less of a defensive role this year, since Malhotra joined the team, and he's set to win it

btw, I agree that Hossa > Toews defensively, and I also put forward that Hossa has been the most under-rated two-way forward in the league

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03-28-2011, 05:23 PM
  #470
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1st on his team (yes, even among defensemen) in PK TOI/G says otherwise.

EDIT: Whoops, nevermind, that was last year's playoffs. He's 5th on his team this year, behind only another C and defensemen.

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03-28-2011, 05:23 PM
  #471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Considering toews has never been the center getting the top defensive assignments in chicago, his selke votes are kind of a joke. Hossa > Toews defensively also.
I’ve always thought his Selke votes were as much for trying to “reward“ him for his mystical “intangibles“ as for his defensive play.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
How does toews have a better peak than kesler? I'm not as down on the pick as VI (I agree with hedberg that he would make a fine 2nd line center in the MLD).
That was actually VCL who said that (although I do agree with him)

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Franzen isn't really comparable. One of the beat playoff specialists of the past half decade. Sit him on the bench in the regular season and let him get some clutch points from the fourth line in the playoffs.
Is that enough though?

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03-28-2011, 05:24 PM
  #472
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Count me among those who not only sees Kesler as a better selection here due to his defensive resume, but also count me among those who thinks that as of this moment in time I think Kesler is just better than Toews.

arrbez and I were considering Kesler while researching the Fleming pick. We ultimately decided on Fleming because we thought he'd be a better fit with Madden and because we needed the toughness factor. But Kesler I think was certainly a fine selection where he was taken.

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03-28-2011, 05:25 PM
  #473
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The Selke in general is a joke if you ask me. It's basically ''who is the biggest star who also happens to have some defensive ability'' it doesn't truly go to the best defensive forward every year.

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03-28-2011, 05:27 PM
  #474
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It actually goes to the best two-way forward, I think. EVERYONE has to be a two-way player these days, it's not good enough to JUST specialize in offense or defense (unless you're absolutely elite at either), so the Selke rewards guys who are excellent at both.

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Old
03-28-2011, 05:35 PM
  #475
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Originally Posted by The Sabre View Post
THAT is a better stat than the Joe Malone and Newsy Lalonde included stat of scoring percentage of Jack Marks. Take out the couple of superstar scorers who lap the field and the statistical result is more significant. A player drafted to play on the 4th line should not be compared to the superstars of the era, as he is picked to be at most a secondary scorer or occasional offensive contributor.
Are you still going on about this? Jeez.

The top-3 scorers in that IHL season are all undrafted, and the leading scorer in that stellar FAHL season, was Jack Marshall, barely a 2nd liner here. In next FAHL season, the leader was Tommy Smith, a 2nd liner. In 1908, Lalonde was the leader, and he was such an outlier that a never-drafted player was within 4 points.

In 1913, Malone led the league but was not much of an outlier. Marks still had only 41% of 2nd-place Smith.

In 1914, Smith and Roberts and Hyland all had 42-45 points, there were no outliers.

In 1915, Pitre, Roberts and Cleghorn all had 33-34 points, there were no outliers.

In 1916, Pitre, Malone and Lalonde had 34-39 points, no one was an outlier.

So in just two of these supposedly impressive seasons was the #1 used for comparison actually Malone or Lalonde. And in one of them, it was a young Lalonde and in a second-rate league.

I stand 100% by what I posted last night. Marks was only able of contributing about 30-35% of the level of offense of the elites at any given time. This is the same standard I judge any player by, whether it is the Bill Barber, Craig Ramsay, or Duane Sutter of the era.

Gretzky and Lemieux and the Orr/Esposito combo were outliers. Malone and Lalonde were just your usual superstar forwards that any era has. Smith, Pitre, Marshall, these guys are a step below even that level and there is absolutely no reason to remove them from any comparison.

If Marks was often at 30-35% the offensive level of Malone, Smith, and Pitre, and a guy like (for example) Duane Sutter was often 30-35% the offensive level of Clarke, Bossy, and Nilsson, then to me they are about equal offensively in an all-time sense.

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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
With our other pick, the Toronto St. Pats are happy to round out our fourth line with an incredibly tough and skilled competitor. In addition to a solid four years at above 50% of the 2nd placed scorer in points, he provided incredible toughness, particulary noted for being an agitating trash talker, man who can hond opposing stars, and a powerful body checker.

His toughness is so great, in fact, that Newsy Lalonde, before he died, named him to his "All-Time Mean Team" along with the likes of Joe Hall, Sprague Cleghorn, Eddie Shore, Ted Lindsay, Bill Cook, Ken Randall, Cully Wilson, and Bill Eznicki.

He is RW Leo Labine
Damn.

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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
"Labine the Frankenstein" Or "Frankenlabine". You should get a job making hockey nicknames
but his name is pronounced "La Bean" so that doesnt really make sense.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Re: Bill Cook, I too have wondered why he was better than Boucher. Aren't their Hart records fairly close?
Cook is a two-time runner up. Boucher was 4th & 5th.

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Next ATD I'm going to try to make an entire team that looks like Frankenstein. Bossy in the first round, Salming in the second...I'll need a few others to get picked in the mid rounds before Labine though.
Ugh, you'll have to pick Phaneuf to make that happen. Is that really worth it?

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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
I'll add this on Cook vs Boucher: Though they may have been equal during their time together, wasn't Cook's western career a lot more spectacular?
Yes, for sure.

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