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ATD 2011 Draft Thread IX

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Old
03-26-2011, 12:54 AM
  #51
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
With 40 teams, I don't know how good that 2nd unit may or may not be. It seems pretty horrible, to me.
I knew when i saw that you posted that you had probably offered harsh criticism without explaining yourself even before reading the post. How on earth is it horrible? Coulter isn't that good back there, but he's only playing the last 20 seconds on average.

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03-26-2011, 01:04 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I knew when i saw that you posted that you had probably offered harsh criticism without explaining yourself even before reading the post. How on earth is it horrible? Coulter isn't that good back there, but he's only playing the last 20 seconds on average.
I meant the forwards. I'd have to take a look at other 2nd units on the PP, but just on the surface, it doesn't seem very good at all.

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Old
03-26-2011, 01:13 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
I meant the forwards. I'd have to take a look at other 2nd units on the PP, but just on the surface, it doesn't seem very good at all.
What's wrong with the forwards?

Without doing any math, Clint Smith appears to me to be almost as good as Pierre turgeon. (smith has much better scoring finishes but it was a much weaker era). And he was on the second PP of my team in the 30 team atd12 and that team went to the final four.

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Old
03-26-2011, 01:24 AM
  #54
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Nice writeup, and a good way to make your case for your power play.

A few comments:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Dan Boyle isn't an elite PP QB in the All-Time draft, but he is still a very good one, in my opinion he is very slightly behind Zubov and Housley as a PP QB.
Depends on how much weight you put on longevity - both Zubov and Housley did it a lot longer than Boyle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Henri Richard might have never gotten PP ice time on the stacked Canadiens back when teams only had one 5 man PP unit.
I know you are oversimplifying and this is just an intro sentence...

But in fact most teams did not have only one 5 man PP unit. Based on power play points, Montreal at their peak was the closest. Chicago, Detroit, and NYR had players who may have stayed out the whole time (Hull, Mikita, Pilote, Howe, Delvecchio, Henry) and others who shared the time. Toronto and Boston spread things out more.

Henri scored a few points on the power play, btw. Relatively little compared to his even strength scoring, but he appears to have filled in on the first unit while Maurice was frequently injured in the late 50s, and he always picked up a few points there. From 56-57 to 62-63 he was 4th or 5th on the team in power play points 5 out of 7 years. So he was at least on the fringe of the first unit for a few years, if not a core member like Beliveau, Geoffrion, or Harvey.

I think he can have a place on a first unit here in the right situation, where he's not the main guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Starshinov might be the most physically strong Soviet forward of all time, and goals in front of the net are his bread and butter (compared to Phil Esposito in style).
I wonder how well Starshinov's strength translates to better competition. In the Summit Series, I thought Canada had a distinct advantage when the puck got below the circles*. Not that the Soviets weren't strong on the puck - they were. But down low when you run out of room and it often comes down to who is stronger on the puck, the Canadian players were simply bigger man for man and won most of the battles around the net. Ragulin was the exception, not the rule.

Starshinov's competition in his prime was weaker than that 1972 Soviet team.

*The Soviet advantage was in transition play between the circles.

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Old
03-26-2011, 01:39 AM
  #55
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I wondered how much starsh's strength would translate here too. But I think it will mostly translate for two reasons:

1) starsh was basically the same age as the much bigger ragulin, and they played on different teams in the soviet league. So any anecdotes about starsh's strength have to incorporate what he did against ragulin.

2) starsh was finishing as mikhailov was starting, and starsh's strength has been compared favorably to mikhailov's before (and not just by vmbm).

I do agree that he won't dominate the front of the net like he did in the ussr. But he'll still battle and get goals there.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 03-26-2011 at 03:03 AM.
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Old
03-26-2011, 02:52 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
If my pick comes up tomorrow, skip me.
Scratch that.

One man list sent to seventieslord, Boy Wonder and theDevilMadeMe. Feel free to pass on to other gms if need be. If my player is gone. Then skip me.

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Old
03-26-2011, 04:28 AM
  #57
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With my three skipped picks..

D: Clem Loughlin
LW: Georges Mantha
RW: Tony Amonte

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Old
03-26-2011, 04:30 AM
  #58
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Home Nugget (who has not missed a deadline once!) has about 4 hours to go in his deadline.

I have PMd everyone with skipped picks, except papershoes, who is well aware.

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Old
03-26-2011, 04:39 AM
  #59
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Come on, seventies. You don't want to take the Clint smith vs pierre turgeon bait?

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Old
03-26-2011, 05:04 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Keenan owned tikhonov in the 87 Canada cup
How so? Because he was a slave to rolling 4 lines? Maybe he was, but it's easily arguable that it worked. Consider that, if you list the forwards, defensemen, and goalies on each squad, the Canadian players are significantly better at every spot, except #1 defensemen, where Bourque and Fetisov were pretty close. That Tikhonov had that team competing with Gretzky/Messier/Lemieux/Bourque/Coffey/Murphy/Anderson/Fuhr/Gilmour and on and on and on, speaks volumes on his ability to make a team better than the sum of its parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Without doing any math, Clint Smith appears to me to be almost as good as Pierre turgeon. (smith has much better scoring finishes but it was a much weaker era).
....Well, he's good, and he's got a better offensive record than some 2nd line centers, but Turgeon isn't one of them. You are a proponent of "doubling" pre-expansion finishes, and that alone would put Smith behind Turgeon (if you ignore 1944 and 1945, which you probably should*, and then the years before and after that were pretty weak too), but that is a bit too simplistic for me.

* although I am thinking of working out a formula that can properly credit players like Smith and Syd Howe and Toe Blake with "percentage" scores for the war years by predicting the point totals of the elite forwards who went to war, based on what percentage players like these usually scored compared to them, averaging it out, and giving the absent players imaginary point totals that other lesser players can then use for percentage scores. (that looks really wordy, so here's an example - suppose the formula determines that if Lorne Carr scored 74 points, Max Bentley was a 95-point player by that standard, and Lynn Patrick was a 78-point scorer and so on, then rewrite the leaderboards, determine who the hypothetical #2 is, and assign percentage scores based on who the hypothetical - almost certainly absent - #2 scorer would be in those seasons) - personally, I think it's genius; the best way we have so far for appropriately crediting ww2 players with at least something for those seasons.

Anyway, Smith's best "percentage" seasons (I'll stop at 8 seasons as there is a big dropoff there):

96 93 78* 74 63 61* 57 56

* = WW2 years estimated using the above premise

Turgeon's best 8 (no outliers removed)

89* 82 78 77* 77 75 70 69

*these two years would become 93 & 87 with obvious and serious outliers removed.

* 1989 and 1996, with scores of 52 & 64 (not shown in top-8 above) would be 86 & 81 with serious and ovbious outliers & outlier creations removed. (after all that, he'd look like this: 93 87 86 82 81 78 77 75)

I don't think Smith brought anything more away from the puck than Turgeon did, either.

I don't think he's very close as a player, but where you got him, he's a much better value (basically twice as far down the draft, and he's obviously much more than half the player Turgeon is - more like 85%). Smith is always an excellent value for whoever takes him. Like Bowie, someone should plan all along to take Smith in the 2nd line center slot, after grabbing two strong wingers, and filling up the 3rd line and top-5 D.

Quote:
Originally Posted by advantage2006 View Post
With my three skipped picks..

D: Clem Loughlin
LW: Georges Mantha
RW: Tony Amonte
I'm pretty "meh" about Mantha, but Loughlin and Amonte are excellent picks. Amonte was one of the four guys I said was arguably the best offensive forward available when TDMM took Smith (and I still can't say for sure which of the four is best)

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Old
03-26-2011, 05:05 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Come on, seventies. You don't want to take the Clint smith vs pierre turgeon bait?
You didn't really believe it. You just wanted me to do the work. And I did. There you go!

I concede nothing re: Turgeon, but Smith would make a fine 2nd liner... even at center!

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Old
03-26-2011, 07:08 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advantage2006 View Post
With my three skipped picks..

D: Clem Loughlin
LW: Georges Mantha
RW: Tony Amonte
Amonte - Great pick, I really wanted him. But his one-dimensional game wasn't compatible with my third line. Goldsworthy fit the bill much better, but Amonte is one of the best offensive forwards left on the board for sure.

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Old
03-26-2011, 10:47 AM
  #63
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The Riots select Billy Taylor, C.

P.S. Please forgive the lateness of my reply.

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Old
03-26-2011, 01:35 PM
  #64
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Montreal Canadiens are proud to select a very good playoff performer Geoff Courtnall LW


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Old
03-26-2011, 01:43 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Heh, that is interesting. Keenan was a pioneer in introducing short shifts, and didn't like players who stayed on too long. Espo took loooonnngg shifts, even for his era. I've read that sometimes he would play through all three sets of wingers in Boston.
Heh, maybe Keenan is just what that underachieving bruins team needed. Keenan wouldn't have let that fly. Espo might not have broken all kinds of offensive records with keenan as coach, but it's possible that team would have won more than the two cups they did win.

The question is - would espo accept the style of play that Keenan demands? I have no idea - he certainly didn't have a coach like that in the NHL.

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Old
03-26-2011, 02:03 PM
  #66
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The Sharks select...



defenseman Ryan Suter

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Old
03-26-2011, 02:38 PM
  #67
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Montreal Canadiens are extremely proud to select one of ReenMachine's favorite player Alex Kovalev RW



Kovalev can play the point on the powerplay as well as the right wing and is a very good powerplay player , he's got a good playoff resume and good size.His enormous talent can also occassionaly take over games all by himself even at this level , which is rare in a 4th liner.

I will do a good Kovalev bio.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 03-26-2011 at 02:47 PM.
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Old
03-26-2011, 02:46 PM
  #68
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The Fireworks are very pleased to select their 4th line Center Rick Meagher


Selke Voting: 1, 4, 6, 11, (Too lazy to count)
Eat that Ryan Kesler and Co.

One of the greatest shadows of his times.

Don't believe me? Ask Mario...

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...r+shadow&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+lemieux&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+lemieux&hl=en


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Old
03-26-2011, 02:57 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
The Fireworks are very pleased to select their 4th line Center Rick Meagher


Selke Voting: 1, 4, 6, 11, (Too lazy to count)
Eat that Ryan Kesler and Co.

One of the greatest shadows of his times.

Don't believe me? Ask Mario...

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+meagher&hl=en



http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+meagher&hl=en
Nice. Was gonna take him if Davidson was picked.

BTW, wasn't Tikhonov (Coach) already picked?

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Old
03-26-2011, 03:05 PM
  #70
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Battle Creek will pick a guy who's had some injury trouble lately, but when healthy, he is (IMO) the best PP quarterback in the NHL today.

Andrei Markov, D

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Old
03-26-2011, 03:06 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by HomeNugget View Post
The Riots select Billy Taylor, C.

P.S. Please forgive the lateness of my reply.
Boy, I hope I face your team in the playoffs.

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Old
03-26-2011, 03:07 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
Battle Creek will pick a guy who's had some injury trouble lately, but when healthy, he is (IMO) the best PP quarterback in the NHL today.

Andrei Markov, D
glad to see him getting picked , what an awesome player.

Him and Kovalev on the PP was such a fantastic combo , gotta miss this deadly powerplay.

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Old
03-26-2011, 03:10 PM
  #73
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The San Jose Sharks select ****ing John Tortorella as their coach.

I don't know why he's never taken.



- Jack Adams
- Cup
- American-born coach with most wins in history


Last edited by Derick*: 03-26-2011 at 03:37 PM.
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Old
03-26-2011, 03:42 PM
  #74
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Wow, some extremely off the board picks here... particularly suter & tortorella. I profiled him as an assistant in the a draft, so I do like him. You really mean to tell me you didn't see any mld/aaa/aa coaches you liked better?

Actually, now that I look again, those were the only OTB picks.

Kovalev was 3rd of the 4 guys I said were the BOPA when smith was taken. I would have found it really hard to resist taking him on one of my next 4. He's a flake, but if anyone could afford a flake, it's regina.

Who'd have thought, the last 1000-point scorer left (for a long time, too!) Would be not a 1980s center, but a dead puck era winger? Solid pick. And he can play the point too.

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Old
03-26-2011, 03:50 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Kovalev was 3rd of the 4 guys I said were the BOPA when smith was taken. I would have found it really hard to resist taking him on one of my next 4. He's a flake, but if anyone could afford a flake, it's regina.

Who'd have thought, the last 1000-point scorer left (for a long time, too!) Would be not a 1980s center, but a dead puck era winger? Solid pick. And he can play the point too.
Yeah , Kovalev was an easy pick for me , he's one of my favorite so I'm more than willing to defend him , which is easier for me since I naturally know a lot about him without even researching.He's gonna play the point , because after Lidstrom , Suter & Iafrate , I missed another good PP defenseman , and I think he's a good 4th liner at this point , especially since I'm making an offensive 4th line.

I drafted Geoff Courtnall LW because I really wanted to take my 4th line wingers before my center and I'm sure you know why , and Courtnall probably gonna be the ''glue guy'' of the line while still having a scoring touch.I also like both their playoff resume.

One of my 4th liner would have to wait 80 pick to get drafted , so my guess is more good offensive centers will be available then.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 03-26-2011 at 03:58 PM.
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