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ATD 2011 Lineup Advice Thread II

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Old
04-04-2011, 06:28 AM
  #251
Nalyd Psycho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Broadbent's best season is better than Hossa's, but Hossa has 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best seasons are better than Broadbent's 2nd, 3rd, and 4th.

Hossa is absolutely not a face in the crowd. He is one of the leading scorers since the lock-out.
Are you factoring in Broadbent's 4th and 7th place finishes in NHA scoring?

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04-04-2011, 06:31 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Are you factoring in Broadbent's 4th and 7th place finishes in NHA scoring?
yes.

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04-04-2011, 08:26 AM
  #253
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I finally figured out how to make links that look like names


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04-04-2011, 08:36 AM
  #254
TheDevilMadeMe
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Do you have a question or just want to announce your new found ability?

Edit: it took me years of posting here before I figured it out. Heh

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04-04-2011, 08:43 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Do you have a question or just want to announce your new found ability?

Edit: it took me years of posting here before I figured it out. Heh
Here's my question..

McGuire's Monsters: great team or greatest team?

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04-04-2011, 08:53 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post


Marian Hossa is barely the 3rd-best Slovak RW (behind Bondra and Palffy). Offensively, he's a dreadful 1st liner. And his two-way play is quite overrated. How the hell is he better than Broadbent - a better offensive player, a better defensive player and worlds ahead physically?
You think Marian Hossa is behind Bondra and Palffy in an all-time sense? Do you mean just offensively or all-around? If it's the latter you mean, I disagree completely.

As for Hossa being a "face in the crowd"...that's just silly. I'm not sure there's another poster here with whom I disagree more about modern players. Hossa is clearly better offensively than Broadbent, whose offensive resume is quite thin after the one big season, and I'm not convinced there is a big defensive difference. One would have to rate Broadbent's intangibles quite a bit higher than I do in order to consider him better than Hossa.

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04-04-2011, 09:18 AM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
You think Marian Hossa is behind Bondra and Palffy in an all-time sense? Do you mean just offensively or all-around? If it's the latter you mean, I disagree completely.
As first line offensive/impact players. Also, though maybe not terribly relevant, Hossa in NT was always way behind them in impact and, yes, even overall play.

Quote:
As for Hossa being a "face in the crowd"...that's just silly. I'm not sure there's another poster here with whom I disagree more about modern players. Hossa is clearly better offensively than Broadbent, whose offensive resume is quite thin after the one big season, and I'm not convinced there is a big defensive difference. One would have to rate Broadbent's intangibles quite a bit higher than I do in order to consider him better than Hossa.
Hossa actually has less top-10s than Broadbent... of course, there's the league size to be considered too. Still, Broadbent's resume is not 'thin'. As for his intangibles, did you read my bio on him?

As for Hossa being a face in the crowd... he was a good 1st liner. He has several top 10s, but was he ever a top-10 forward in the league? I don't think so.

What other modern players we disagreed on?

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04-04-2011, 09:22 AM
  #258
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In my opinion, hossa > palffy > bondra overall.

Palffy has the best peak offense (4 top 10s vs 2) and better prime per game scoring, but Hossa has more good offensive seasons, so I could see an argument for either as the best offensively of the bunch, depending on how you way longevity as a productive player. I would take palffy's offense because I value 5 year peaks quite a bit.

Bondra is the worst of the three even offensively in my opinion, despite leading the league in goals twice, because his playmaking is abysmal.

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04-04-2011, 09:27 AM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
As first line offensive/impact players. Also, though maybe not terribly relevant, Hossa in NT was always way behind them in impact and, yes, even overall play.
I'm not so sure about that....

Hossa demolishes both Palffy and Bondra at the Olympics, which is the best competition. He also has a better WC record than Bondra. Palffy's edge in WC doesn't make up for Hossa's edge in Olympics.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Hossa actually has less top-10s than Broadbent... of course, there's the league size to be considered too. Still, Broadbent's resume is not 'thin'. As for his intangibles, did you read my bio on him?
It's not only league size. It's also that he played in one of many top level leagues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
As for Hossa being a face in the crowd... he was a good 1st liner. He has several top 10s, but was he ever a top-10 forward in the league? I don't think so.
Hossa is probably a top-10 forward since the lock-out.

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04-04-2011, 10:00 AM
  #260
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Let's not forget that defensively Hossa is one of the top wingers in the NHL. To me, factoring in overall play: Hossa>>Palffy>Bondra

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04-04-2011, 10:05 AM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I'm not so sure about that....

Hossa demolishes both Palffy and Bondra at the Olympics, which is the best competition. He also has a better WC record than Bondra. Palffy's edge in WC doesn't make up for Hossa's edge in Olympics.
Yes, because stats tell everything. I've seen pretty much every game any of them played in the NT.

Hossa demolishes them at Olympics? That's what looking only at stats without the context leads to - Bondra and Palffy couldn't play in the Olympics in their primes due to IIHF imbecility.

Hossa is the one being demolished at World's - he's miles behind Palffy, and has identical PPG with Bondra, yet Bondra has nearly twice the GPG and was incredibly clutch leader whenever he played and led the team to its greatest success, while Hossa always underperformed.

No, he's not better in NT. He's closer to the likes of Handzus than to Palffy & Bondra.

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Hossa is probably a top-10 forward since the lock-out.
Is he? Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Thornton, Sedins, St.Louis, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Staal, Heatley, Kovalchuk... he's at best in the mix for 9th, and even that is a longshot and I'd disagree.

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04-04-2011, 10:05 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Let's not forget that defensively Hossa is one of the top wingers in the NHL. To me, factoring in overall play: Hossa>>Palffy>Bondra
Yeah? What are his Selke finishes?

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04-04-2011, 10:09 AM
  #263
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Hossa has always been a good two-way player, but I don't think he became great defensively until Chicago, and his offense is way down taking on a more defensive role. He's not zetterberg or datsyuk, who can be elite defensively while still leading his team's offense.

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04-04-2011, 10:13 AM
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Yeah? What are his Selke finishes?
To be fair, he said "top wingers" and the Selke is mostly an award for centers now.

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04-04-2011, 10:15 AM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Hossa actually has less top-10s than Broadbent... of course, there's the league size to be considered too. Still, Broadbent's resume is not 'thin'.
"League size", as you say, is the proverbial elephant in the room for Broadbent. Of all Broadbent's top offensive seasons outside of his scoring title, only one stands up under scrutiny: 1914-15: 87 Vs2 - and this is an NHA season where only goals were counted, which probably overrates Broadbent. Broadbent's 8th place NHA and 10th place NHL finish are both in the 50+ Vs2 range, indicating that he was far from a top scorer in those seasons, and that is before we factor in the fact that he wasn't even playing against all of the world's best talent.

So...one great offensive season and one very good one and then pretty much a grinder, never again topping 60% vs the league's #2 scorer. Yeah, offensively I take Hossa over him easily.

Quote:
As for his intangibles, did you read my bio on him?
Yes, I did. You provided exactly two quotes on his defensive play, one from LOH and one from an article published upon his induction into the HHOH, which states:

Quote:
"He was a great scorer" recalled Baz, "but he was also the best of backcheckers. He went all the way to the net. And interestingly enough, he never strayed more than a few feet off those boards, and woe to the player who tried to slip inside him. He had the greatest pair of elbows in hockey."
"Never straying more than a few feet off those boards" sounds to me like a winger who played classic "up-and-down-the-wing" defense, not a defensive dynamo. The evidence for Broadbent's defensive game is not exactly eye-popping as it is, but this quote really makes me think that he was a "good, reliable" defensive winger who would likely have some issues adjusting to modern rules. I think Hossa at his best may have been somewhat better than that defensively.

No doubt Broadbent has a huge physicality edge on Hossa, but that only counts for so much.

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04-04-2011, 10:22 AM
  #266
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What, so now quantity of quotes matters? OK I'll update the bio with more of the same tomorrow if that's what apparently makes some people judge players. Sheesh.

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04-04-2011, 11:20 AM
  #267
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Yeah? What are his Selke finishes?
09: 13th overall, 5th among wingers.

2010: 7th overall, 2nd among wingers

Also, he's twice led the NHL in short-handed goals. He's a good PKer even outside of that stat though.

Didn't go back further than that, but I think that adequately proves he's very superior defensively to Palffy and Bondra, which in my opinion MORE than makes up for the small amount of peak offense Palffy may have provided over him (4 vs. 2 top 10 finishes for Palffy, 4 top 6 finishes in goals for Hossa, two for Palffy)

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04-04-2011, 11:26 AM
  #268
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The edge in peak offense between the two is not particularly small, but I would also take Hossa's all-round game combined with greater longevity.

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04-04-2011, 11:35 AM
  #269
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The edge in peak offense between the two is not particularly small, but I would also take Hossa's all-around game combined with greater longevity.
I don't think it's small (I do think it's closer than you think, but you're right certianly that Palffy's peak offense was better. Hossa is definitely the better goal scorer I think though, which makes up for the difference in total points finishes a little in my mind), but I also certainly don't see it as great enough to make up for the difference in all-around play.

So in a round about way, yeah I agree haha.

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04-04-2011, 11:42 AM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Broadbent's best season is better than Hossa's, but Hossa has 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best seasons are better than Broadbent's 2nd, 3rd, and 4th.

Hossa is absolutely not a face in the crowd. He is one of the leading scorers since the lock-out.
Wow, I have missed a lot here. Hossa, a "face in the crowd"? seriously?

Your post on this matter is spot-on. And Sturm's post that goes more in-depth is also 100% correct.

Hossa's defensive game wasn't always considered elite, but it is pretty close now. And his overall two-way package is one of the best in the game. His CORSI rating was tops in the NHL either last year or the year before (I forget) showing that no team holds a greater territorial advantage than the Hawks do with Hossa on the ice (shots for/shots against) - I haven't researched the stat that hard and can't say for sure whether it accounts for linemates, competition, and percentage of draws in which zone. But the best players do score the best in this stat, so it's doing something right.

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04-04-2011, 12:42 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Hossa has always been a good two-way player, but I don't think he became great defensively until Chicago, and his offense is way down taking on a more defensive role. He's not zetterberg or datsyuk, who can be elite defensively while still leading his team's offense.
Hossa has been a plus defensive winger since he entered the league. He played on Ottawa's checking line in his rookie year and usually gt the tough matchup from then on.

Maybe he wasn't always "great" or "elite" defensively. But the more common career path is to come into the league as a below-average defensive player and improve over time. Hossa has always been ahead of the curve defensively.

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04-04-2011, 01:32 PM
  #272
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As lineup assassinations approach, I find it useful to do an ice-time chart for my players. I believe this was HO's idea, and last year we decided than 7 minutes of PP time and 7 minutes of SH time is a reasonable estimate for most teams. Here are the swamp devils defensemen:

nameESPPSHtotal
Quackenbush202426
Coulter181423
Bilya150318
Pratt155222
Ley110112
Boyle136019
total921414120

I think these are reasonable regular season estimates, based on NHL ice time last year. 26 minutes is a bit high for a #1 defenseman, but Quack's endurance is legendary, and his style of play is non-impact, so I think he can handle it. A real workhorse like Ray Bourque can handle 27 minutes, but most #1s will be around 25 minutes. 23 minutes is typical of a #2.

Obviously top pairing guys will play more in the playoffs.

I haven't finished my forwards yet, but if anyone else wants to, they should total 138 ES, 21 PP, 14 SH, 173 total minutes by this estimation.

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04-04-2011, 02:02 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
As lineup assassinations approach, I find it useful to do an ice-time chart for my players. I believe this was HO's idea, and last year we decided than 7 minutes of PP time and 7 minutes of SH time is a reasonable estimate for most teams. Here are the swamp devils defensemen:

nameESPPSHtotal
Quackenbush202426
Coulter181423
Bilya150318
Pratt155222
Ley110112
Boyle136019
total921414120

I think these are reasonable regular season estimates, based on NHL ice time last year. 26 minutes is a bit high for a #1 defenseman, but Quack's endurance is legendary, and his style of play is non-impact, so I think he can handle it. A real workhorse like Ray Bourque can handle 27 minutes, but most #1s will be around 25 minutes. 23 minutes is typical of a #2.

Obviously top pairing guys will play more in the playoffs.

I haven't finished my forwards yet, but if anyone else wants to, they should total 138 ES, 21 PP, 14 SH, 173 total minutes by this estimation.
I really like the ice-time chart. Is it reasonable to expect Dan Boyle to be playing 6min out of 7 on your PP's though?

If you are estimating 7 minutes, then I'm assuming that's 3 PP's of not scoring and 1 PP where you score after a minute. Assuming Boyle is out there for the full minute on the PP that scores, that gives him 5min out of 6 on the remaining 3 PP's, for an average of 1min 40sec for a full PP. This seems too high to me.

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04-04-2011, 02:11 PM
  #274
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Well, it's probably more like 5.5 minutes, but I didn't want to get into decimals....

Is 1:40 on the PP too much for a guy playing easy 3rd pairing minutes at even strength? I'll see what others think.

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04-04-2011, 02:27 PM
  #275
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What, so now quantity of quotes matters? OK I'll update the bio with more of the same tomorrow if that's what apparently makes some people judge players. Sheesh.
Quality matters as well, and quotes from LOH and a newspaper report from more than 30 years after Broadbent's retirement are of low quality. Come up with some evidence from Broadbent's playing days and I'll listen.

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