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should he stay or should he go ?

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Old
03-28-2011, 12:49 PM
  #76
hullsy47
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Originally Posted by jaateloauto View Post
It's clear Wilson sucks and he should go but as we've seen he won't be fired by Burke no matter what happens. We just have to pray he won't be given an extension and that the guy that comes after him has any idea what he's doing.
im not sure any management positions can be renewed or extended until the new owners are settled .same with colangelo ..u cant go giving out 5 year extensions if we are gonna have a hands on ownership .

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03-28-2011, 12:55 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Al14 View Post
The goal of every NHL team should be to win it all every year.
This is pretty ignorant...

Teams should be going out there and competing to win games, but guys on the Islanders or Oilers or heck, even on the Wild aren't deluding themselves saying, man... can't believe we're not in the playoffs, we SHOULD BE.

No. Just no.

Players, coaches and GMs have to have realistic expectations for their clubs. If you expect your team to have a serious shot at the Stanley Cup, then you make trades like New Jersey did last season to acquire Kovalchuk. Mortgage the future to find that ONE GUY to get you over-the-top.

If you fool yourself into believing that your team should be going after the Cup every year, and GMs with inexperience sometimes will do this, you get a John Ferguson Jr. fiasco and a marginally competitive team nose-dives and likely takes YEARS to recover. This is where the Leafs are now.

Ferguson had aimless, balls-deep-in-stupidity expectations for the Leafs after Quinn handed him the reigns and he McGuffined it all up making bad trade after bad trade looking for that ONE GUY that would put the Leafs over-the-top.

Do you think that the Blackhawks turned into the team they were last year by having Tallon mortgage picks and prospects for the previous decade trying to get the Keith Tkachuks and Adam Footes of yesteryear? No! He had a plan, had realistic expectations of his team year-to-year and when the time FINALLY came to go out and blow some future assets on a couple of big names to get over-the-top, he did it and they won the Cup.

So no, every team should NOT expect to be winning the Cup every year.

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03-28-2011, 12:56 PM
  #78
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My main issues with him are special teams....

If he decided to bring in someone competent and hand it off entirely to them I'd have no huge issue with him staying.

He's actually decent for developing the kids and a team system.

But having the worst PK and PP for only the second time in league history and then following that up with a 4th worst and 7th worst just isn't acceptable.

Even if we were a middle of the road special teams unit we'd likely be nearly tied with the Sabres for 8th.

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03-28-2011, 12:57 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by hullsy47 View Post
im not sure any management positions can be renewed or extended until the new owners are settled .same with colangelo ..u cant go giving out 5 year extensions if we are gonna have a hands on ownership .
I doubt it.

A sale as complex as this one could take many, many months to complete.

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03-28-2011, 12:59 PM
  #80
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Apart from the obvious reasons of record, special teams performances I don't think you can have a negative coach with the negative media.

There is just no escape for the players. especially for such a young team

he needs to go

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03-28-2011, 01:00 PM
  #81
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My main issues with him are special teams....

If he decided to bring in someone competent and hand it off entirely to them I'd have no huge issue with him staying.

He's actually decent for developing the kids and a team system.

But having the worst PK and PP for only the second time in league history and then following that up with a 4th worst and 7th worst just isn't acceptable.

Even if we were a middle of the road special teams unit we'd likely be nearly tied with the Sabres for 8th.
When Tim Brent is on your PP, you as a team are going NO where!!

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03-28-2011, 01:01 PM
  #82
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Will Burke fire Wilson? NO. That doesn't necessarily mean he'll resign him either. A few things could happen

1. Wilson steps down
2. He plays out the rest of his contract and if he doesn't get the team into the playoffs, Burke just doesn't resign him
3. Burke offers Wilson an upper managment job, a way to fire him without really firing him

Either way...My question is if there is a coach out there worth anything? I've heard Dallas Eakins, but I don't see that being the guy that turns things around in TO. I'm not a Wilson fan AT ALL but if it's between Wilson and Eakins, I'd have to stick with Wilson.

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03-28-2011, 01:02 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
I doubt it.

A sale as complex as this one could take many, many months to complete.
I agree with this.

MLSE is much larger than the hockey club and the sale is less hockey related than any other teams sale in the league would be, except for the Rangers I would imagine.

Burke is President of the club and can make the move to sign long term if he wants to. The pockets here are deep and there would be no reason to wait. Also, the sale is still speculation as there is no real buyer and the Teacher's make a lot of money while they sit on the asset. It's very different than a small market club bleeding funds all over the place.

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03-28-2011, 01:07 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by pspot View Post
Apart from the obvious reasons of record, special teams performances I don't think you can have a negative coach with the negative media.

There is just no escape for the players. especially for such a young team

he needs to go
Us fans complain about how he calls the players out in the media and all I can do is laugh.. and really hard.

Are you kidding me??? Keep telling it how it is! Do the players complain? To me, the players have gotten closer while responding to his style of coaching.

This is Toronto and building the thick skin is exactly what Wilson was brought in to do. If you are going to play here, you are going to learn to seperate the media from the club or you will fail.

Having a coach and GM like the ones we have are the best things to happen to us since Pat Burns left. Pat Burns called it how it was with the players all the time. Calling out the media when it was warranted all the time.

I don't care about what some of you think about "the modern player" but this is a young group that has done nothing to earn that pre-madonna attitude and if one does, they can go (see: Versteeg).

Establishing an environment like the one we have now is perfect and is the most underrated aspect of Wilson's time here

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03-28-2011, 01:09 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by KeziaTML View Post
Absolutely not.

Ron Wilson deserves absolutely no credit for the play of James Reimer.
You are right and neither does the GM....the truth is if the Leafs relied on their regular tandem of goalies, Boston would be getting another lottery pick. Giguere and Gustavsson were disasters....a lot like Toskala was last year. Of course Vesa was hated around these parts so nobody wants to admit that.

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03-28-2011, 01:11 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by willy29 View Post
When Tim Brent is on your PP, you as a team are going NO where!!
I disagree...they usually go golfing.

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03-28-2011, 01:26 PM
  #87
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You are right and neither does the GM....the truth is if the Leafs relied on their regular tandem of goalies, Boston would be getting another lottery pick. Giguere and Gustavsson were disasters....a lot like Toskala was last year. Of course Vesa was hated around these parts so nobody wants to admit that.
Nobody wants to admit that Toskala was hated here?

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03-28-2011, 01:28 PM
  #88
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Question #1: Should the Oilers fire Tom Renney?

Question #2: Was it the Avs' decision to retain Joe Sacco correct?

Both of these questions relate very accurately in a comparison with Ron Wilson. I think, most importantly, because you get outside perspective on two other very young teams.

All three are high on turnovers, bad on the PP and PK and all have had a bad season or two in the last few years.

So the question is, why did Sacco get off Scot-free, why doesn't Renney get denounced as openly as Wilson, why does every good thing Wilson do get overlooked and every mistake magnified and used to crucify the guy.

In my view, the blame falls on all the expectations that've been set for this team and the ever increasing lack of patience amongst the fans to see immediate improvement.

As bad as things were with Ballard, the mess that the Silver Fox inherited from him was nowhere near as bad as what Burke inherited from Ferguson Jr. You also have to take into account the massively different scales of information distribution. Blogs, message boards and Twitter weren't factors in how Fletcher was regarded by the public. Not to mention that Ballard had been crushing the hopes of Leafs fans longer than Ferguson.

Fans nowadays never really got a solid grasp of how poorly Ferguson managed this team and the fact that playoff competitiveness is a relatively short time away leads everyone to expect this to be a relatively quick fix.

Burke, to his detraction, certainly trumped it all up and poised a lot of people against him. The reason Burke isn't getting hammered nearly as hard as Wilson has a lot to do with the evidence of his hard work and let's be honest, Burke is a helluva lot more charismatic and likeable than Wilson. With Burke, we see the plan, we get it, we see progress and it makes sense.

With Wilson, we don't get it, we don't see the progress and we don't really understand the plan or what the systems are. But that isn't Wilson's fault necessarily. For the plays to be clear, the plans to be evident to the fans, you need to have the players executing it flawlessly. And that can't be expected of a young team. There's too much inexperience, nerves and habits still forming and reforming to the standards of the NHL.

Guys make mistakes, get out of position, turn pucks over, don't find seams as readily as veterans would. There are all kinds of problems. That stuff is nearly impossible for outside perspectives (fans) to really get a frame of reference on. How does this system look on a team that implements it properly, versus the team we have. Is it close? Is it way off mark? Well, we don't have a comparison so we can't know.

But something isn't working and it needs fixing.

The question I am asking is: What do you think the answers are for the other teams. What is Edmonton doing with its coaching.

In my opinion, this just needs time and experience. Once this team can get a little more accustomed to the rigours of the NHL, the systems will start to increase in efficiency.

A team like Detroit that has the veteran expertise that they do, OF COURSE they'll pick apart an inexperienced young team. That's WHAT THEY DO.

Do I think Wilson stays on as Head Coach? Till his contract expires, for sure. Does he get a renewal? Maybe. Probably, but if someone who represents a better fit is available, then that would have to be considered. Are the Leafs firing Wilson without having a clear-cup replacement on-hand and ready-to-go? Not a chance.

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03-28-2011, 01:38 PM
  #89
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News Alert

The NHL has decided to no longer award the Jack Adams trophy, as all coaching success is attributed to players. The league is contemplating giving the award to the coach who is solely responsible for suckage of his team.

This years award goes to Ron Wilson, because everything bad about the Leafs is his fault, and any team success was in spite of him.

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03-28-2011, 01:41 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by dynrehab View Post
News Alert

The NHL has decided to no longer award the Jack Adams trophy, as all coaching success is attributed to players. The league is contemplating giving the award to the coach who is solely responsible for suckage of his team.

This years award goes to Ron Wilson, because everything bad about the Leafs is his fault, and any team success was in spite of him.
We can call it The Ron Wilson Never-Achievement Trophy

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03-28-2011, 02:22 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
You are right and neither does the GM....the truth is if the Leafs relied on their regular tandem of goalies, Boston would be getting another lottery pick. Giguere and Gustavsson were disasters....a lot like Toskala was last year. Of course Vesa was hated around these parts so nobody wants to admit that.
Who drafted Reimer? Who signed Giggy, the Monster?

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03-28-2011, 02:33 PM
  #92
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Burke should be fired before Wilson. The team plays hard and that's all you can do as a coach. If you play hard and don't win, its because you don't have talent.

Thats Burke's fault.

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03-28-2011, 02:42 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
Burke should be fired before Wilson. The team plays hard and that's all you can do as a coach. If you play hard and don't win, its because you don't have talent.

Thats Burke's fault.
I give Burke an A-. Burke has done quite a lot, JFJ basically destroyed the prospect pool in Toronto trying to get NHL level assets that didnt pan out. Our NHL team looks pretty solid and improving every year. Prospect pool is improving through pseudo-drafting via college.

I give Wilson a C-. Specialty teams is a sign that something is wrong with the system. Specialty teams is more about group organization and system than it is about talent. Something is clearly wrong. Wilson-Kessel beef was not exactly what i wanted to hear either.

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03-28-2011, 02:48 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by niroopg View Post
I give Burke an A-. Burke has done quite a lot, JFJ basically destroyed the prospect pool in Toronto trying to get NHL level assets that didnt pan out. Our NHL team looks pretty solid and improving every year. Prospect pool is improving through pseudo-drafting via college.

I give Wilson a C-. Specialty teams is a sign that something is wrong with the system. Specialty teams is more about group organization and system than it is about talent. Something is clearly wrong. Wilson-Kessel beef was not exactly what i wanted to hear either.
When you don't have a PP QB, a big forward to stand in front of the net, a play making centerman, and barely a shot from the point, how is that Wilson's problem?

Burke failed to get Wilson adequate tools.

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03-28-2011, 02:53 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
When you don't have a PP QB, a big forward to stand in front of the net, a play making centerman, and barely a shot from the point, how is that Wilson's problem?

Burke failed to get Wilson adequate tools.
Kaberle was a great PP QB and Phaneuf had a bomb from the point. Most teams use a fronting concept with their D-man, so a huge forward isn't a necessity on the PP. Wilson failed to produce a strong PP here and his PK was worse. He's been outcoached on a nightly basis since coming to Toronto, it's pretty easy to see. We' usually get behind early and are left clawing back to try and get in to games.

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03-28-2011, 02:55 PM
  #96
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Kaberle was a great PP QB and Phaneuf had a bomb from the point. Most teams use a fronting concept with their D-man, so a huge forward isn't a necessity on the PP. Wilson failed to produce a strong PP here and his PK was worse. He's been outcoached on a nightly basis since coming to Toronto, it's pretty easy to see. We' usually get behind early and are left clawing back to try and get in to games.
Phaneuf's shot was so good, Calgary had to trade him for spare parts. Look at how many goals Phaneuf has had this year. 3 outstanding PP goals.

Lets talk about the PK and having to put two first year centers on the PK because no one else can win a faceoff. Crappy goalies were helping out the PK a tonne too.

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03-28-2011, 02:56 PM
  #97
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Phaneuf's shot was so good, Calgary had to trade him for spare parts. Look at how many goals Phaneuf has had this year. Outstanding.
Do you understand the concept of causation? Phaneuf's was producing goals in Calgary. Then, when he came to Toronto, he wasn't. Can you venture a guess as to what happened?

Yes, Toronto doesn't have the talent that Calgary has on its powerplay. Their PP is unstructured and unfocused. They get overloaded due to lack of puck support. They give up SH opportunities out the wazoo.

Their PK can't stop a PP for the life of them. They might as well sit on the bench and wait for the opponents to score. Knowing when to overload and collapse and charge the points are coaching tactics, not player skills. And don't whine about crappy goaltending. We have hot goaltending right now and still struggle to PK.


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03-28-2011, 02:56 PM
  #98
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I doubt it.

A sale as complex as this one could take many, many months to complete.
Don't think there is an issue since RW has over a year left on his deal.

Don't see any results that indicate the coach has earned an extention.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA3LN_8hjM8.

Vaive and Ludzik on collapse, and Phaneuf.
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03-28-2011, 03:02 PM
  #99
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Phaneuf's shot was so good, Calgary had to trade him for spare parts. Look at how many goals Phaneuf has had this year. 3 outstanding PP goals.

Lets talk about the PK and having to put two first year centers on the PK because no one else can win a faceoff. Crappy goalies were helping out the PK a tonne too.
Phaneuf's shot was good enough to a top scoring d-man in the NHL, do you think he forgot how to shoot?

He couldn't find a way to make it work. He had the parts to work with, but couldn't get it to mesh. Bozak was billed as a PKer before signing and in his first training camp, Brent's been a strong PKer since his time with the Majors.

Many coaches have done more with less, Wilson's simply done a bad job here the past 2 years.

What has he done well here?

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03-28-2011, 03:04 PM
  #100
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Don't think there is an issue since RW has over a year left on his deal.

Don't see any results that indicate the coach has earned an extention.
If only it was that simple. Burkie-Ronnie BFFs for life.

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