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should he stay or should he go ?

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Old
03-28-2011, 03:05 PM
  #101
A1LeafNation
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
Phaneuf's shot was good enough to a top scoring d-man in the NHL, do you think he forgot how to shoot?

He couldn't find a way to make it work. He had the parts to work with, but couldn't get it to mesh. Bozak was billed as a PKer before signing and in his first training camp, Brent's been a strong PKer since his time with the Majors.

Many coaches have done more with less, Wilson's simply done a bad job here the past 2 years.

What has he done well here?
Newsflash, Phaneuf is still trying to find his shot since his first year in the NHL.

RW is turning floaters like Kessel and Grabovski into two-way forwards. Not to mention MacArthur and Kulemin are having phenomenal seasons under Wilson.

Id like to see what he can do with Kadri.

Top PK teams have centers who have been in the league for years and top goalies in the league. Toronto has to play first year players who never played the PK in the NHL.

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03-28-2011, 03:20 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
Newsflash, Phaneuf is still trying to find his shot since his first year in the NHL.

RW is turning floaters like Kessel and Grabovski into two-way forwards. Not to mention MacArthur and Kulemin are having phenomenal seasons under Wilson.

Id like to see what he can do with Kadri.

Top PK teams have centers who have been in the league for years and top goalies in the league. Toronto has to play first year players who never played the PK in the NHL.


Phaneuf's had a bomb since he arrived in the NHL, it didn't just fade away. 17 goals in both his 2nd and 3rd year, on-pace for a 15 goal year when he was traded to the Leafs. Doesn't seem like he lost his shot, it looks like Wilson's struggle to use it effectively.

Grabovski's been good this year, no doubt about it, his whole line has. How much of that is Wilson? Kulemin was a strong prospect who seems to be reaching the potential everyone saw in him. Kessel's been better defensively, but much of that is simply his effort level. I don't attribute that to Wilson, that's a young player taking more responsibility.

Like I said earlier, brutal PK, bad PP and consistently beaten in both match-up and X and O situations. As a motivator, he's struggled and that's why we're consistently behind early. As a technical coach, you see his struggles in our special teams. Wilson chose to play the guys you mention, he chose not to use Grabovski or keep Zigomanis, he's had a big hand in putting this roster together.

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03-28-2011, 03:20 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
Newsflash, Phaneuf is still trying to find his shot since his first year in the NHL.

RW is turning floaters like Kessel and Grabovski into two-way forwards. Not to mention MacArthur and Kulemin are having phenomenal seasons under Wilson.

Id like to see what he can do with Kadri.

Top PK teams have centers who have been in the league for years and top goalies in the league. Toronto has to play first year players who never played the PK in the NHL.
2005-2006 - 20 goals
2006-2007- 17 goals
2007-2008 - 17 goals
2008-2009 - 11 goals - limited PP time with Bowmeester signing
2009-2010 - 15 goal (with pace) - limited PP time with Bowmeester signing
1/3 of 2010 and this season - 9 goals - all the PP time in the world

Don't make up data about Phaneuf. Either do the research or don't include your made up information.

Wilson has done **** with Kessel. Kessel looks like a worse player than he was during his first season with the Leafs. His shot is basically gone. He looks dog tired and frustrated.

Grabovski's improvement was a product of his own hardwork. Wilson attested that he and Kulimen were low maintenance and did work on their own. Wilson didn't change those players. Kulimen has always been a two way forward. Grabovski's new family instilled him with a greater drive which has led to his performance. Wilson stated that himself.

In regards to the PK, we have Grabovski, Kulemin, Mike Brown, Timmy Brent, and Sjostrom playing the PK. None of them are slouches defensively. VERY FEW TEAMS have their top center on the PK. Our PK is ranked 27. There aren't 26 "top goalies" in the league that has led them to better PK performances than the TML. Ottawa doesn't even have a consistent goaltender and they are ranked 8th in the league.

STOP MAKING INFORMATION UP.

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Old
03-28-2011, 03:28 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by niroopg View Post
2005-2006 - 20 goals
2006-2007- 17 goals
2007-2008 - 17 goals
2008-2009 - 11 goals - limited PP time with Bowmeester signing
2009-2010 - 15 goal (with pace) - limited PP time with Bowmeester signing
1/3 of 2010 and this season - 9 goals - all the PP time in the world

Don't make up data about Phaneuf. Either do the research or don't include your made up information.

Wilson has done **** with Kessel. Kessel looks like a worse player than he was during his first season with the Leafs. His shot is basically gone. He looks dog tired and frustrated.

Grabovski's improvement was a product of his own hardwork. Wilson attested that he and Kulimen were low maintenance and did work on their own. Wilson didn't change those players. Kulimen has always been a two way forward. Grabovski's new family instilled him with a greater drive which has led to his performance. Wilson stated that himself.

In regards to the PK, we have Grabovski, Kulemin, Mike Brown, Timmy Brent, and Sjostrom playing the PK. None of them are slouches defensively. VERY FEW TEAMS have their top center on the PK. Our PK is ranked 27. There aren't 26 "top goalies" in the league that has led them to better PK performances than the TML. Ottawa doesn't even have a consistent goaltender and they are ranked 8th in the league.

STOP MAKING INFORMATION UP.

LOL, this is the first time in Kessel's career that he is back-checking. He wasn't like that in Boston which is why they traded him. He wasn't like that in junior which is what scouts were saying about him. When Grabovski first got here, he was a lazy floater.

Maybe people should stop facepalming and open their eyes. Phaneuf's production decreased and he was traded. You think Calgary would trade Phaneuf if his shot still worked? He was getting fazed out because guys were stepping up when he wasn't in Calgary.

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03-28-2011, 03:31 PM
  #105
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I know he won't be gone, but I would seriously like another coach behind the bench like many here. Consistency, special teams, adjustments to the system/approach, etc., all seem to be issues. He's a good coach, just maybe not here right now.

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03-28-2011, 03:34 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
LOL, this is the first time in Kessel's career that he is back-checking. He wasn't like that in Boston which is why they traded him. He wasn't like that in junior which is what scouts were saying about him. When Grabovski first got here, he was a lazy floater.

Maybe people should stop facepalming and open their eyes. Phaneuf's production decreased and he was traded. You think Calgary would trade Phaneuf if his shot still worked? He was getting fazed out because guys were stepping up when he wasn't in Calgary.
They couldn't afford to keep Kessel due to cap issues so Burke forced them in to a trade. Grabovski was never lazy, he always worked very hard, but had trouble thinking the game. Going to the wrong areas, making bad turnovers, forcing players, etc... Your comments on Phaneuf were proven wrong, now you're left scrambling. Calgary opted to trade him for secondary scoring. They thought J-Bo would replace his offense and he's struggled to do so. His shot wasn't a one-year wonder like you were pretending, that's been proven.

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03-28-2011, 03:38 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
They couldn't afford to keep Kessel due to cap issues so Burke forced them in to a trade. Grabovski was never lazy, he always worked very hard, but had trouble thinking the game. Going to the wrong areas, making bad turnovers, forcing players, etc... Your comments on Phaneuf were proven wrong, now you're left scrambling. Calgary opted to trade him for secondary scoring. They thought J-Bo would replace his offense and he's struggled to do so. His shot wasn't a one-year wonder like you were pretending, that's been proven.
Maybe you should watch hockey from two years ago and see how much cherry picking Grabs was doing.

Yeah they couldn't afford to keep Kessel, but signed Krecji because he was so much better. How many centers do the Bruins have now? It wasn't shocking at all that they kept Ryder over Kessel. LOL. Get real.

Phaneuf has regressed, there is no argument. Its why they traded him. Hopefully he gets it back, but as of right now, he is still trending downward, like he was in Calgary.

Phaneuf scored 11 goals in the 08-09 season
Phaneuf scored 12 goals in the 09-10 season
Phaneuf would have been on pace for 10 goals this season if healthy.

See a trend? Open your eyes.

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03-28-2011, 03:41 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post

RW is turning floaters like Kessel and Grabovski into two-way forwards. Not to mention MacArthur and Kulemin are having phenomenal seasons under Wilson.

Id like to see what he can do with Kadri.
You do know that Wilson and Kessel dont even talk to each other? They both admitted as much.

What I saw Wilson do with Kadri is throw him under the bus while Kadri was playing for the Marlies, lol.

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03-28-2011, 03:45 PM
  #109
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You do know that Wilson and Kessel dont even talk to each other? They both admitted as much.

What I saw Wilson do with Kadri is throw him under the bus while Kadri was playing for the Marlies, lol.
Funny how since that comment, since Kessel's 14 game slump or whatever it was, they did talk and Kessel has been back-checking when not scoring. Something that he's never done in his entire hockey career. Funny how that worked out.

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03-28-2011, 03:46 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
Maybe you should watch hockey from two years ago and see how much cherry picking Grabs was doing.

Yeah they couldn't afford to keep Kessel, but signed Krecji because he was so much better. How many centers do the Bruins have now? It wasn't shocking at all that they kept Ryder over Kessel. LOL. Get real.

Phaneuf has regressed, there is no argument. Its why they traded him. Hopefully he gets it back, but as of right now, he is still trending downward, like he was in Calgary.

Phaneuf scored 11 goals in the 08-09 season
Phaneuf scored 12 goals in the 09-10 season
Phaneuf would have been on pace for 10 goals this season if healthy.

See a trend? Open your eyes.
...and this is what we're down to.

Ryder wasn't tradeable and Krejci signed for significantly less. They offered Kessel the same contract as Krejci, but Phil turned it down.

Like I mentioned earlier, Grabovski wasn't a floater, he may cheat offensively to get a chance, but he was a worker and always has been.

Phaneuf's declined, you are right, he's not the Norris Candidate he was. He could still score though, that was the point I made earlier about the PP. You claimed he couldn't shoot the puck and had 1 good season in terms of goal production. That was proven wrong. Phaneuf's pace of 15 goals last year would've put him in the top 5 for d-man scoring behind Green, Doughty and Weber. NHL.com has Buff up there too, but he spent more time as a forward last season.



This has become a pissing match, you're going to change my mind on this, all of the numbers seem to support my position. You'll mantain that Phaneuf was a 1-year wonder who didn't actually score those goals in Calgary and that Grabovski stood at the opposition's blueline most nights waiting for a pass. I don't see a point in responding a

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03-28-2011, 03:46 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
LOL, this is the first time in Kessel's career that he is back-checking. He wasn't like that in Boston which is why they traded him. He wasn't like that in junior which is what scouts were saying about him. When Grabovski first got here, he was a lazy floater.

Maybe people should stop facepalming and open their eyes. Phaneuf's production decreased and he was traded. You think Calgary would trade Phaneuf if his shot still worked? He was getting fazed out because guys were stepping up when he wasn't in Calgary.


He was traded due to dressing room issues, excessive cap commitment to D core and a tremendous lack of depth during a time of a lot of Calgary injuries. His goal totals in Calgary, barring one year, do not suggest the loss of his shot - he had hip and knee issues during his last season in Calgary.

Yes, his production decreased. His production decreased as a consequence of too many stars on the defensive line. His production did not lead to the demotion. The demotion led to his decrease in production. You would have needed to follow Calgary more closely to see this. He was angry with the unjustified loss of ice time in Calgary post-Bowmeister signing.

Few fans in Calgary were happy to see Phaneuf moved. Calgary management would not have traded him if not for tremendous injury burden among the forwards that required immediate NHL forward asset acquisition to resolve.

Phaneuf was traded because of D-CORE CAP OVERINVESTMENT and INJURIES ON THE FORWARD LINE. He was a 50-point D man in his first 4 seasons. He was traded to TML in his 5th season. 50-points as a defenseman is not a lack of production.

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03-28-2011, 03:48 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
Maybe you should watch hockey from two years ago and see how much cherry picking Grabs was doing.

Yeah they couldn't afford to keep Kessel, but signed Krecji because he was so much better. How many centers do the Bruins have now? It wasn't shocking at all that they kept Ryder over Kessel. LOL. Get real.

Phaneuf has regressed, there is no argument. Its why they traded him. Hopefully he gets it back, but as of right now, he is still trending downward, like he was in Calgary.

Phaneuf scored 11 goals in the 08-09 season
Phaneuf scored 12 goals in the 09-10 season
Phaneuf would have been on pace for 10 goals this season if healthy.

See a trend? Open your eyes.
I don't argue with what stares me in the face......how can you? People keep bringing up Grabovski and how fans wanted to get rid of him and now he is great....well you are right..Grabovski was a floater..he was lazy and frustrating to watch... I wanted him out as much as the next guy...He certainly changed his work ethic and is playing a different game this year...maybe Wilson is responsible for that? You would have to ask Grabovski. But if continued down the road he was on...I'm pretty sure his a$$ would have been out the door this year.


I'm not sure how anyone can argue that Phaneuf has regressed or that he is not worth his contract. He has turned it around somewhat of late and that is a step in the right direction. Maybe next year, he will find his old form? Wait and see....Teams don't often trade players for no reason, but often a change of scenery will help the player start fresh...re-invent themselves. Nobody knows for sure which way Phaneuf will go next season.

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03-28-2011, 03:51 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
Funny how since that comment, since Kessel's 14 game slump or whatever it was, they did talk and Kessel has been back-checking when not scoring. Something that he's never done in his entire hockey career. Funny how that worked out.
What makes you so sure about that? Chances are Burke told them to say whatever they had to say in order to prevent any more controversy. You know Ron Wilson wasnt talking to Kaberle either, while taking the 'A' off of him and giving it to Komisarek and Beauchemin, lol.

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03-28-2011, 03:52 PM
  #114
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I can't believe people are this thick on these boards.

Phaneuf had 11 goals the season before they brought in Bouwmeester.
He still continued to put up these totals these past two seasons.

He went from 20, to 17, to 17, to 11, to 12, to pro-rated 10 this year. Calgary traded him because he was making too much and not producing.

Who cares about trading Ryder, if you wanted to keep Kessel that bad, Ryder would have been in the minors.

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03-28-2011, 03:55 PM
  #115
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What makes you so sure about that? Chances are Burke told them to say whatever they had to say in order to prevent any more controversy. You know Ron Wilson wasnt talking to Kaberle either, while taking the 'A' off of him and giving it to Komisarek and Beauchemin, lol.
I didn't realize you could buy an armchair that comes with a mic that taps into the Leafs dressing room.

Where do you shop?

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03-28-2011, 03:56 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
Funny how since that comment, since Kessel's 14 game slump or whatever it was, they did talk and Kessel has been back-checking when not scoring. Something that he's never done in his entire hockey career. Funny how that worked out.


How's that working out? Does that line look stellar defensively now?

Gratz Wilson. Now Kessel is dog tired on the shift, can't sticklift an opponent or beat an opponent with his speed.

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03-28-2011, 04:00 PM
  #117
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How's that working out? Does that line look stellar defensively now?

Gratz Wilson. Now Kessel is dog tired on the shift, can't sticklift an opponent or beat an opponent with his speed.
Still a work in progress, thank-fully Kessel is young and improving now thanks to Wilson.

Bozak has no business playing top line minutes.

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03-28-2011, 04:02 PM
  #118
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I didn't realize you could buy an armchair that comes with a mic that taps into the Leafs dressing room.

Where do you shop?
I dont have to, these things are reported by the media. You think this stuff is made up, good for you.

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03-28-2011, 04:10 PM
  #119
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I dont have to, these things are reported by the media. You think this stuff is made up, good for you.
lol no

What I do is look at the source. What you just said was nothing but rumour generated by the joke of a rumour mill which is Toronto media. I am sure you believe that the Richards shaking his head to Toronto is 100% true as well because it was in the media.

I know a lot of us fans felt some pain when the new order was brought in and the last remnants of the last age left but other than his time here, Kabby did not deserve an A under the new system and giving these things to players who were part of the future was the right decision.

We can debate that all day but when you say things about how well known a player-coach relationship because some homer in a Toronto paper said so.. well, let's just say you belong on an episode of the Simpsons.

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03-28-2011, 04:22 PM
  #120
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i don't mind the guy...

Nicest thing a Leaf fan has ever said about the guy...

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03-28-2011, 04:25 PM
  #121
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I'm one of Wilson's harshest critics, but he has gotten a lot out of some players this year that has pushed us into 10th position, and I don't really see a need to mess with our chemistry.

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03-28-2011, 04:56 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
I can't believe people are this thick on these boards.

Phaneuf had 11 goals the season before they brought in Bouwmeester.
He still continued to put up these totals these past two seasons.

He went from 20, to 17, to 17, to 11, to 12, to pro-rated 10 this year. Calgary traded him because he was making too much and not producing.

Who cares about trading Ryder, if you wanted to keep Kessel that bad, Ryder would have been in the minors.
Speaking of boards....stick to sportsnet.

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03-28-2011, 04:58 PM
  #123
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Grabovski under Wilson.

Below is the line combination time with points produced in brackets. Percentages rounded.

2008-2009
Hagman-Grabovski-Kulemin ES 29% (12)
Poni-Grabovski-Kulemin ES 11% (11)

During this year Grabovski looked both good and awful.

2009-2010

Blake-Grabovski-Hagman 20% (8)
Poni-Grabovski-Hagman 10% (5)
Caputi-Grabovski-Stalberg 9% (2)

Injury to wrist keep Grabovski on sidelines for 23 games. For a centerman a wrist injury is significant when you consider face-offs and passing along with shooting.

2010-2011

MacArthur-Grabovski-Kulemin 54% (30)
Kessel-Grabovski-Kulemin 5% (3)
Kessel-Grabovski-MacArthur 4% (1)

Pretty good results this year.

For the floating Grabovski may or may not have done (I think it was more about decision making than anything) I say the biggest issue was the make-up of the Hagman line. Hagman in Calgary hasn't exactly been tearing it up. Being placed on waivers kind of highlights why I didn't really like him in Toronto, or miss him when traded.

Grabovski has done better (IMO) with more direct players, like Poni, Kulemin and MacArthur. Perhaps it is because he knows where those guys are going to be, unlike the invisible man Hagman.

Can't blame Grabovski for who RW puts on his line.

dobberhockey stats

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA3LN_8hjM8.

Vaive and Ludzik on collapse, and Phaneuf.
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03-29-2011, 07:10 PM
  #124
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just get him out of town

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