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Phoenix Part XXXI: I feel I'm in a time loop

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Old
03-28-2011, 02:35 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
CoG is not buying the parking rights from MH. MH doesn't own the parking rights. MH has never owned the parking rights. MH will never own the parking rights.

Who exactly they *are* buying them from is unclear, but they are certainly *not* buying them from MH.

Someone should ask the Mayor why they don't separate the transactions, and buy the parking rights from the NHL directly, allowing MH to have a much cleaner transaction (GWI-wise) with the NHL.
Wrong. They are ultimately going to buy them from MH.

The bankrupt estate currently owns them, and the NHL has the unfettered right to acquire them.

As part of the closing:

1. The NHL will exercise its right to acquire the parking rights.

2. The NHL will assign those rights to MH as part of the franchise assets that he is to acquire.

3. MH will assign those rights to COG.

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03-28-2011, 02:39 PM
  #102
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Well that seems a bit harsh doesn't it? Projecting "Hulsizer won't probably live for another 30 years".. he's 40 now, and you're projecting he won't probably make it to 70? Why?

Considering the average life expectancy for a 40 year old white male who isn't a former NFL player these days, 40 seems a bit young to expect he 'probably won't' have 30 years left.

According to google Clint Bolick is 53 years old. I won't guesstimate how many years he 'probably has left' - I don't despise him that much.

Anyway, not like a death would nullify anything.
The point was, making a 30 year guarantee for anything can only be taken with a grain of salt. No one can realistically guarantee anything for 30 years.

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03-28-2011, 02:43 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
As i demonstrated on the last thread, the $97M will not cover his arena direct operating costs. He will get no "profit" on that end of the transaction (mind you, given the way it is structured, he could not make money on the arena operating fee).
I didn't say he's trying to profit. I am suggesing that he will maximize the amount that will need to be reimbursed by CoG. It's like year end for most departments in corporations...spend to your budget or lose it.

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03-28-2011, 02:45 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
CoG is not buying the parking rights from MH. MH doesn't own the parking rights. MH has never owned the parking rights. MH will never own the parking rights.

Who exactly they *are* buying them from is unclear, but they are certainly *not* buying them from MH.

Someone should ask the Mayor why they don't separate the transactions, and buy the parking rights from the NHL directly, allowing MH to have a much cleaner transaction (GWI-wise) with the NHL.
I'm thinking the COG/MH/NHL has tried to word this all as the most legal thing they can do already.

I still think that Bettman will save the franchise.

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03-28-2011, 02:47 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by yotesreign View Post
Well that seems a bit harsh doesn't it? Projecting "Hulsizer won't probably live for another 30 years".. he's 40 now, and you're projecting he won't probably make it to 70? Why?

Considering the average life expectancy for a 40 year old white male who isn't a former NFL player these days, 40 seems a bit young to expect he 'probably won't' have 30 years left.

According to google Clint Bolick is 53 years old. I won't guesstimate how many years he 'probably has left' - I don't despise him that much.

Anyway, not like a death would nullify anything.
I think what the poster was trying to get at is some people have a notion that if MH get a hold of the team he is committed for the entire 30 years, regardless of the teams financial values.

If the team continues to hemorrhage money at its current rate, 3 or 4 years down the road MH could file for bankruptcy and we are back where the situation of Moyes was, Who I doubt decided to originally get involved with the team and go bankrupt from the start.

What makes this whole thing precarious is the amount of money being thrown around without any hard facts to base it off of, its very easy to value something at 100million like the parking but if attendance woes were to continue parking values could be a quarter of that value. Or if the team becomes the hottest things since Slap bracelets, Alf and that Rebecca Black Friday Song, it could be close to the actual 100 Million. Regardless the actual amounts of money being thrown around are hard to quantify, most of it is subjective.

As others have mentioned MH is a pretty successful Businessman, I have a feeling that he isnt going to go through with something that will likely to be a continuing losing investment unless all of the cards are stacked in his favor. By Saving the Coyotes the NHL may have doomed them at the same time, By agreeing to eat a large financial risk by stabilizing the team last year/this year, pushing the original $140mil + losses this year may have pushed out any interest in someone ponying up the cash for it.

Why would someone dump close to 200 million of their on something that is worth less than 100million with more losses in the foreseeable future, in hopes of a long term revival. Enter MH, the CoG and Bonds wheeling and dealing this gets ******** complicated quickly, factor in something that by nature is hard to quantify like operating losses and parking figures this whole thing becomes messy.

Enter the GWI who redoubtably have an agenda , but are right in the fact the whole gift thing is fishy, there is a lot of money being thrown around, hardly compares to chump change.

Regardless in the long run the only people who are going to lose are the CoG and tax payers. By keeping the team they are going to get smashed financially, and by letting go of the team they will get smashed financially.

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Old
03-28-2011, 02:48 PM
  #106
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1) You're assuming again that CoG doesn't already own the parking. You can't prove they don't. And it's certainly not worth anywhere near 100M.
2) Operating expenses can be as low as $5 M per year.
3) Good for you... you can get your money back on those season tickets later.
If the team owned the parking rights, why when Moyes owned the team were they sending 2.70 per ticket sold, to the city. I thought that was to cover parking. Wasn't that the battle cry at the time? The team doesn't get parking revenue, infact it pays the city for parking. At least that's how I remember it.

Edit: people can say they are paying 100 million for parking but it is going to cost them around 300 million.


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03-28-2011, 02:48 PM
  #107
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If the team continues to hemorrhage money at its current rate, 3 or 4 years down the road MH could file for bankruptcy and we are back where the situation of Moyes was...
Seems it would be quite a bit worse, as there would be much more debt overhang to deal with, and less ability to issue debt to entice another rabbit into the lair.

 
Old
03-28-2011, 02:59 PM
  #108
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If the team continues to hemorrhage money at its current rate, 3 or 4 years down the road MH could file for bankruptcy and we are back where the situation of Moyes .
That's the absolute truth that Yote supporters refuse to beleive. If MH was really committed for 30 years, he would use this own money and not hide behind the bonds and ultimately the tax payer. Or, he would back up this deal with his own personal fortune and his own company. If it's just "Arizona Hockey" that is making these guarantees, then it's meaningless.

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03-28-2011, 03:02 PM
  #109
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I would have thought the thread would have been titled "Let's do the time warp again....."

That said, it appears to be the same old same old. Certain people think the deal looks like a coyote, howls like a coyote and is a coyote, others think is looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and is a duck.

I have a lot of empathy for what the yotes fans are going though but trust me on this, the public paying for this stuff via special taxing districts, etc. is complete BS. We are still paying for it here in Chicago for Comiskey park. They don't lower the taxes when revenues go up, just increase them when revenue is down. And here, Comsikey is only used for the Sox, nothing else, because JR is selfish.

If MH is being guaranteed money for running the arena, what incentive is there for him to actually try to make the arena profitable or at least minimize losses? None.

And if parking was truly worth $100 million, this is going to have many ramifications on the alleged damages to try to get from Moyes. He will just point and say CoG bought the rights for $100 mil and all the other taxes and revenues associated with it. And if it was truly worth that much, I do not see MH giving away such a huge upside for a measly $100 mil. He should just securitize it himself. It would be lower cost and not have any type of cloud hanging over it. And now he is guaranteeing $75 mil of it, heck just securitize it for $25 mil and dump your $75 mil into the kitty.

But, alas, none of this will happen, the two sides on this board will keep arguing their same points over and over and over and over without either side recognizing any points from the other side as being valid. Basically, this is a microcosm of what is happening between CoG, NHL, MH, and GI.

Wake me up when something actually happens.

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03-28-2011, 03:05 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
CoG is not buying the parking rights from MH. MH doesn't own the parking rights. MH has never owned the parking rights. MH will never own the parking rights. Who exactly they *are* buying them from is unclear, but they are certainly *not* buying them from MH. Someone should ask the Mayor why they don't separate the transactions, and buy the parking rights from the NHL directly, allowing MH to have a much cleaner transaction (GWI-wise) with the NHL.
If we agree that the NHL currently owns the parking rights under their interim Lease, then I would assume those rights revert back to the COG upon its revocation & expiration in June. Moving forward thereafter, the new Leaseholder owns the parking rights as assigned to them by the COG. Therefore, MH would indeed own them to sell yes?...... Your suggestion that the COG buy the rights from the NHL direct is interesting, why bother complicating matters by involving Hulsizer as a conduit at all?. I suspect it may have something to do with the short term nature of the interim lease itself and the Moyes' BK?. Confusing to put it mildly.

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03-28-2011, 03:06 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by PerryMiller View Post
That's the absolute truth that Yote supporters refuse to beleive. If MH was really committed for 30 years, he would use this own money and not hide behind the bonds and ultimately the tax payer. Or, he would back up this deal with his own personal fortune and his own company. If it's just "Arizona Hockey" that is making these guarantees, then it's meaningless.
That's not fair.

Hulsizer is sinking $70m of his own money up front into this deal.

No doubt he feels that if he can offset his losses in the initial seasons with Glendale's money, he'll be able to turn the team around and restore its value. If he can't do that, he loses every dime of that $70m.

So it's not like he doesn't have some significant skin in the game.

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03-28-2011, 03:07 PM
  #112
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With everything being said. Couldn't the COG clear things up by showing proof that the NHL owns the parking lot with paperwork to prove it?

Once that's done. The COG can make any number up to what they feel the parking lot is technically worth.

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03-28-2011, 03:10 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
But, alas, none of this will happen, the two sides on this board will keep arguing their same points over and over and over and over without either side recognizing any points from the other side as being valid. Basically, this is a microcosm of what is happening between CoG, NHL, MH, and GI.

Wake me up when something actually happens.
Agree. We're all just too frustrated by how long this has been going on. I'm tossing myself out of the game (for today )

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03-28-2011, 03:12 PM
  #114
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I understand the dilemma the CoG is in, it seems like a no win scenario if the team leaves or stays. In the event they stay, the amount of revenue they need to generate per person per game just to break even seems to be a difficult task. They would need each individual attending a game to put an additional $40-75 out of pocket. The number I'm using is based on the amount of losses this year, I realize this is speculation, but I believe not unrealistic.

Regardless of whether you like the MH/CoG deal or not, MH will have his work cut out for him. Can the market bear the increase in price? What are MH's "tweaks" that can make this a reality? He hasn't been very clear on what needs to be done to make this franchise profitable.

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03-28-2011, 03:14 PM
  #115
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If we agree that the NHL currently owns the parking rights under their interim Lease, then I would assume those rights revert back to the COG upon its revocation & expiration in June. Moving forward thereafter, the new Leaseholder owns the parking rights as assigned to them by the COG. Therefore, MH would indeed own them to sell yes?......
Let's say MH takes over the team on July 1 by cutting the NHL a check for $70M. After the NHL's current amended lease expires, the parking rights have naturally reverted back to CoG, so MH is negotiating a lease with the starting point being CoG owning the parking rights.

But there's an extra $100M involved. Which, relative to the above baseline and assuming the deal closes today, means CoG is paying $100M for the parking rights to a handful of regular season and playoff games.

Quote:
Your suggestion that the COG buy the rights from the NHL direct is interesting, why bother complicating matters by involving Hulsizer as a conduit at all?.
Being the suspicious type - living through deals will do that to a man - I would rephrase the question as "what are they trying to obfuscate by complicating the deal like this?"

 
Old
03-28-2011, 03:16 PM
  #116
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That's not fair.

Hulsizer is sinking $70m of his own money up front into this deal.

No doubt he feels that if he can offset his losses in the initial seasons with Glendale's money, he'll be able to turn the team around and restore its value. If he can't do that, he loses every dime of that $70m.

So it's not like he doesn't have some significant skin in the game.
If your scenario is correct then MH could go out and borrow his own $100M and turn things around too, leaving the taxpayers not exposed to the risk. Although then he needs to account for the interest costs too... nope doubt the math works then.

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03-28-2011, 03:18 PM
  #117
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The last line in that quote by Dreger irks me..."we'll do our best to keep the focus on the Coyotes march into the postseason and away from the organization's fight for survival. "

Huh? It's news and Dreger plus the rest of TSN are reporters...yeesh.
Just further confirmation that the whole TSN crew are the Count's sock puppets. It's pathetic how little attention TSN has paid this story. Huge story in Canada, yet clowns like MacKenzie and Dreger ignore it for months and months on the NHL's say-so that everything's okay. Even now, with this deal dead and buried unless it's completely restructured, Dreger just buys in to the NHL's statement that the deal is still "percolating."

What on earth is there percolating here? If your coffee takes this long, Gary, just make me a cup of tea.

BTW, I suggest "Still Percolating" for the next thread title...

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03-28-2011, 03:23 PM
  #118
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BTW, I suggest "Still Percolating" for the next thread title...
"Still Percoceting..."

 
Old
03-28-2011, 03:44 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
Wrong. They are ultimately going to buy them from MH.

The bankrupt estate currently owns them, and the NHL has the unfettered right to acquire them.

As part of the closing:

1. The NHL will exercise its right to acquire the parking rights.

2. The NHL will assign those rights to MH as part of the franchise assets that he is to acquire.

3. MH will assign those rights to COG.
How is it that you know the bankrupt estate owns the rights when Goldwater after pouring over thousands of pages of documents say "...at this point it’s unclear who owns those parking rights now, how they were acquired and whether they are worth $100 million. On what basis does the city claim the parking rights being pledged to repay the bonds are owned by the team, rather than the city?"

Why don't you do us all a favour and send your documentation to GWI since the city is unwilling to.

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03-28-2011, 04:07 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
Wrong. They are ultimately going to buy them from MH.

The bankrupt estate currently owns them, and the NHL has the unfettered right to acquire them.

As part of the closing:

1. The NHL will exercise its right to acquire the parking rights.

2. The NHL will assign those rights to MH as part of the franchise assets that he is to acquire.

3. MH will assign those rights to COG.
Why would COG pay roughly $100M more to buy them from MH than the NHL is paying to acquire them from the bankrupt estate?

And if they were worth what the COG is going to pay for them, why wouldn't the estate have tried to get the money for itself?

That makes no sense.

Bankruptcy aside, the NHL/estate transaction sets a rough value on the rights.

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03-28-2011, 04:12 PM
  #121
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Why would COG pay roughly $100M more to buy them from MH than the NHL is paying to acquire them from the bankrupt estate?
This is exactly it. If the deal is "gift free" then it will be a trivial matter to match up CoG's purchase of the parking rights from the NHL with the NHL's acquisition of the parking rights from the bankrupt estate.

But that's not happening. Therefore the deal is by definition not "gift clean".

QED.

Or put it another way - if the team relocates, what will it cost CoG to reclaim the parking rights if the NHL choses to exercise their right to acquire them before packing the UHauls?

It's easy to get lost in a maze of twisty legal passages, all alike, but the bottom line is really pretty simple.

 
Old
03-28-2011, 04:22 PM
  #122
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He is selling a piece of what he's buying. If/when he decides to sell the franchise, it will be worth considerably less, because he will have no high-margin parking revenue stream available to sell with the team.

.
Thats been a real revenue generator for sure

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03-28-2011, 04:28 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by ToddGillForever View Post
Just further confirmation that the whole TSN crew are the Count's sock puppets. It's pathetic how little attention TSN has paid this story. Huge story in Canada, yet clowns like MacKenzie and Dreger ignore it for months and months on the NHL's say-so that everything's okay. Even now, with this deal dead and buried unless it's completely restructured, Dreger just buys in to the NHL's statement that the deal is still "percolating."

What on earth is there percolating here? If your coffee takes this long, Gary, just make me a cup of tea.

BTW, I suggest "Still Percolating" for the next thread title...
Until the NHL says the team is moving, or other substantials facts are uncovered, it is not news, only speculation. I think TSN has done a great job of being sprots reporters about this issue, despite the disdain of many who wish the Coyotes to move to Winnipeg. The right place for speculation is a message board like this.

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03-28-2011, 04:31 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
Wrong. They are ultimately going to buy them from MH.

The bankrupt estate currently owns them, and the NHL has the unfettered right to acquire them.

As part of the closing:

1. The NHL will exercise its right to acquire the parking rights.

2. The NHL will assign those rights to MH as part of the franchise assets that he is to acquire.

3. MH will assign those rights to COG.
1.If the NHL doesn't acquire them who do they go to?

2.MH needs the 100 million from the sale of these rights to pay the NHL for the team before he can sell them to the COG. Cart before the horse my friend.

3. So COG pays hulsizer essentially to buy the team and then transfer the rights?
(How is it written in the agreement between Hulsizer and the COG?)

I'm not sure how you think that passes the sniff test. Maybe you could provide other examples of when this has been done in the past. I cannot think of anything where a third party can sell something they currently are not entitled to with express intent to transfer ownership of those rights after they are acquired.

Ps. You sure know alot about the arizona constitution and the gift clause. I suppose you have had alot of personal experience working within it.

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03-28-2011, 04:51 PM
  #125
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Looking into the future, 5 years from now I see Hulsizer on the verge of bankruptcy doing a TV interview, this time looking into the camera: "Look its Brain Dead Simple Buy a Freakin ticket!!!!!!!!!!!!"

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