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Old
07-07-2004, 11:36 AM
  #1
Steve
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JfJ/Signings

Everyone is flaming away at the signings of Nieuwendk, Roberts and Belfour. IMO Roberts a warrior who can score approx 25-30 goals a year. Nieuwendyk, who came up big for us in the playoffs (Although Lalime came up big for us too), very responsible in his own end and a faceoff specialist - oh yeah, not to mention that they are both all heart - IMO to get them both for a combined salary of 6.5 or 6.75 is a GREAT deal, they are both huge players.

Belfour, perhaps the best goalie right now, I'd love to have Brodeur too and Luongo (b/c they're both young) but Belfour is still great and everyone seems to forget that he SINGLE HANDIDLY beat the Sens.

The problem here is that people are saying that they overspent, i don't really think so b/c without them we would be in a bit of trouble, especially without Belfour. Don't get me wrong Trevor Kidd is AMAZING but he can only stand on his head for so long.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

OH yeah, and one reason they got JFJ is because he supposidly knows the Lockout situation inside and out so maybe he knows something that we don't!

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07-07-2004, 11:52 AM
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MrMackey
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Overspent = spending more than you need to

None of those players were getting that money from anywhere else, probably not even close, therefore JFJ overspent.

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07-07-2004, 11:54 AM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMackey
Overspent = spending more than you need to

None of those players were getting that money from anywhere else, probably not even close, therefore JFJ overspent.
and you know what other teams would offer? must be tough to be in the head of all 29 GM's.

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07-07-2004, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Everyone is flaming away at the signings of Nieuwendk, Roberts and Belfour. IMO Roberts a warrior who can score approx 25-30 goals a year. Nieuwendyk, who came up big for us in the playoffs (Although Lalime came up big for us too), very responsible in his own end and a faceoff specialist - oh yeah, not to mention that they are both all heart - IMO to get them both for a combined salary of 6.5 or 6.75 is a GREAT deal, they are both huge players.

Belfour, perhaps the best goalie right now, I'd love to have Brodeur too and Luongo (b/c they're both young) but Belfour is still great and everyone seems to forget that he SINGLE HANDIDLY beat the Sens.

The problem here is that people are saying that they overspent, i don't really think so b/c without them we would be in a bit of trouble, especially without Belfour. Don't get me wrong Trevor Kidd is AMAZING but he can only stand on his head for so long.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

OH yeah, and one reason they got JFJ is because he supposidly knows the Lockout situation inside and out so maybe he knows something that we don't!

Well put. And Nieuwendk is such a role player too. I mean he was described as the fertilizer that allowed Antro and Poni to develop. That in itself is huge. What more can you ask for than a hall of famer working with our kids like Stajan and all these other young kids. The more I think about it, the more these signings of the trio looks good.

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07-07-2004, 12:11 PM
  #5
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Originally Posted by TrueBlue
Well put. And Nieuwendk is such a role player too. I mean he was described as the fertilizer that allowed Antro and Poni to develop. That in itself is huge. What more can you ask for than a hall of famer working with our kids like Stajan and all these other young kids. The more I think about it, the more these signings of the trio looks good.

I think that this is as important as what Joe contributed on the ice, which was pretty good. He had a significant impact on Stajan as well. Having him available for another year with these three could well be worth the 3 million in the long run.

Young players need to develop, another year with Joe is a good thing.

To the poster who suggested no one else would pay Joe or Gary those numbers, I must respectfully disagree. I think Roberts is exactly what Florida would have jumped at, and getting Nieuendyk would have been good for them as well. They arew Keenan types and Martin has seen first hand what they are capable of. I think that they would have lept at the pair personally.

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07-07-2004, 12:12 PM
  #6
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Most people criticizing this are armchair messageboard GMs who don't have a clue about the "market" they're speaking of.

I had a sens fan tell me last week that the signings of Madden/Primeau/Draper were all completely rational and "fit within the framework of the new CBA" (LOL...and how would he know this??), but somehow the Belfour/roberts/Nieuwendyk deals were totally insane.

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07-07-2004, 12:21 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMackey
Overspent = spending more than you need to

None of those players were getting that money from anywhere else, probably not even close, therefore JFJ overspent.

Sounds like you are trying to use logic here. Using = signs and therefore and making conclusions.

How do you know that they were not getting that money elsewhere? The trio were signed before July 1st so they didn't even test the market. Unless you have the insights to all the 30 GM's but I'm guessing not. I'm probably right too.

There is a reason why guys like Chelios and Hasek and Roberts, and Joe and Eddie are still signing contracts at their ages. A reason that your logical self cannot comprehend.

That's ok though, were just concerned with one man using logic and smarts: JFJ

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07-07-2004, 12:24 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepNCheese
Most people criticizing this are armchair messageboard GMs who don't have a clue about the "market" they're speaking of.

I had a sens fan tell me last week that the signings of Madden/Primeau/Draper were all completely rational and "fit within the framework of the new CBA" (LOL...and how would he know this??), but somehow the Belfour/roberts/Nieuwendyk deals were totally insane.
I hear ya Pep. This anti Toronto sentiment is just the "in" thing to do around here. Anything Toronto does is apt to be criticised loudly. We can't even enjoy a little bit of "what if" discussion here without being proclaimed to be rediculous leaf fans.

If Belfour, Nieuwendyk and Roberts had been left free it would likely have been proclaimed "the biggest mistake Toronto management has ever made" according to most posters. We can't actually get alot of rational discussion with anyone on this board, even if on all subject matters other than Toronto they are excellent posters. It just seems that everyone wants to be the guy who bashes the Leafs. I suppose we should take it as a compliment, but it takes away alot of the interest out of being here some days.

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07-07-2004, 12:34 PM
  #9
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Originally Posted by Timmer
. . .
I suppose we should take it as a compliment, but it takes away alot of the interest out of being here some days.

Agreed. I have no wish to bash any other team- I don't find it partiuclarly fun. I guess some people do find it fun, but I don't understand why. For some reason I have not liked the Rangers for years and years- but I can see past my prejudice and appreciate what they do have. And I have nothing against Rangers fans.

I do enjoy discussing hockey though, and finding out what fans of other teams are thinking. I also enjoy dreaming about the possibilities for the Leafs.

I don't see any point in casting players or GMs in polarised categories: "A laughing-stock" "Too old" "Too soft." There's a reason why any player gets a contract with an NHL team, and its not because he has no talent.

Finally- if people don't enjoy hockey and get excited about it then what's the point? Cynicism as a way of life is like choosing not to live at all.

That's my motivational speech for the day. Now I'm going to head back to my van by the riverside and see if I can't rustle up a rodent for lunch.

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07-07-2004, 01:26 PM
  #10
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Well firstly, it seems the Leafs are not worried what a new CBA could bring.

They had no choice but to sign these guys. Roberts was an all-star last year, Nieuwendyk was one of our best players even with the ammount of time he missed and Belfour is our MVP. We needed these guys if we plan on taking a serious shot at the cup. You can't just let these three walk. They are heart and soul guys and would have commanded and probably recieved the same ammount of money the Leafs handed them cause the whole league knows how important it is to have these types of players on your team.

They were good signings.

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07-07-2004, 01:28 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueBlue
There is a reason why guys like Chelios and Hasek and Roberts, and Joe and Eddie are still signing contracts at their ages. A reason that your logical self cannot comprehend.

That's ok though, were just concerned with one man using logic and smarts: JFJ
Well Chelios just signed for $3M (half of his salary last year), and Hasek signed for a base of $2M. You're right and so are others that I can't get in the minds of 29 GMs... but neither can you. I can look around the league and see that players are accepting far less than they had in the past.

I have also not read one single newspaper suggesting there were teams other than the Leafs looking at Belfour, Roberts or Nieuwendyk. I just heard Leaf fans and radio hosts in Toronto suggest what a loss it would be for the team if they were to sign elsewhere.

Primeau is coming off a playoff performance that some suggested was Conn Smythe worthy (had they made it to the Cup). Canadians have been screaming that he was left off the World Cup team. He's not close to 40 and has a better chance of staying healthy than either Roberts or Nieuwendyk. He took a $500,000 pay cut when there was likely to be some demand for his services.

Madden and Draper would've likely garnered some interest around the league because of their year-in-year-out Selke potential, but they probably got a little more than what they would've elsewhere too.

Luc Robitaille had comparable stats last year (51 points to lead the Kings), is of comparable age and is also a future Hall of Famer... didn't he re-sign for $1.45M? I'm certain he's in pretty good shape too. The grit that Roberts brings to the table is worth more than double the value?

The Leaf signings seem great to fans who realize that the team has a bottomless pit of money due to probably the best TV deals in the league and high gate prices. However, from what I've seen around the league, many teams are working under self-imposed caps. That means teams like Philly, St. Louis and previous spenders are letting players walk... while teams like Pittsburgh, LA and Chicago, with little commited to their payroll next season are trying to reload with unqualified RFAs and younger UFAs.

From what I was understanding from the media, all three players wanted to stay in Toronto, doesn't that usually qualify for some type of discount?

It appears to me that players like Hasek, Chelios and Luc Robitaille can be had for a bargain this year, and I made the assumption that so could the Toronto three, but you've all done a very good job of proving me wrong. Sorry to make that mistake.

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07-07-2004, 01:42 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMackey
Overspent = spending more than you need to

None of those players were getting that money from anywhere else, probably not even close, therefore JFJ overspent.
Good post...makes sense. Who really would have paid them, let alone Belfour, that kind of money...?

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07-07-2004, 01:48 PM
  #13
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Last edited by Volcanologist: 07-07-2004 at 01:57 PM.
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07-07-2004, 01:50 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMackey
Well Chelios just signed for $3M (half of his salary last year), and Hasek signed for a base of $2M. You're right and so are others that I can't get in the minds of 29 GMs... but neither can you. I can look around the league and see that players are accepting far less than they had in the past.

I have also not read one single newspaper suggesting there were teams other than the Leafs looking at Belfour, Roberts or Nieuwendyk. I just heard Leaf fans and radio hosts in Toronto suggest what a loss it would be for the team if they were to sign elsewhere.

Primeau is coming off a playoff performance that some suggested was Conn Smythe worthy (had they made it to the Cup). Canadians have been screaming that he was left off the World Cup team. He's not close to 40 and has a better chance of staying healthy than either Roberts or Nieuwendyk. He took a $500,000 pay cut when there was likely to be some demand for his services.

Madden and Draper would've likely garnered some interest around the league because of their year-in-year-out Selke potential, but they probably got a little more than what they would've elsewhere too.

Luc Robitaille had comparable stats last year (51 points to lead the Kings), is of comparable age and is also a future Hall of Famer... didn't he re-sign for $1.45M? I'm certain he's in pretty good shape too. The grit that Roberts brings to the table is worth more than double the value?

The Leaf signings seem great to fans who realize that the team has a bottomless pit of money due to probably the best TV deals in the league and high gate prices. However, from what I've seen around the league, many teams are working under self-imposed caps. That means teams like Philly, St. Louis and previous spenders are letting players walk... while teams like Pittsburgh, LA and Chicago, with little commited to their payroll next season are trying to reload with unqualified RFAs and younger UFAs.

From what I was understanding from the media, all three players wanted to stay in Toronto, doesn't that usually qualify for some type of discount?

It appears to me that players like Hasek, Chelios and Luc Robitaille can be had for a bargain this year, and I made the assumption that so could the Toronto three, but you've all done a very good job of proving me wrong. Sorry to make that mistake.

No reason to apologize, it's all good.

Also the reason why you didn't hear of teams interested in the trio is because it was before July 1st. If you inquire on players before that you could can charged with tampering by the NHL. And there is a hefty price for tampering. All 30 GMs make it their number one rule not to tamper with players under contract.

Initially I wasn't exactly jumping for joy when I heard of the signings of the trio. More or less because I wanted to see some kids get the opportunities. But after thinking about it and reaizing all the intangibles that these guys bring, it looks better every day. Plus, they didn't bring all the greybeards back, only some of them. So maybe we will get to see some kids and we know they will have great role models to play with.

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07-07-2004, 02:03 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Don't get me wrong Trevor Kidd is AMAZING but he can only stand on his head for so long.
Am I missing something?

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07-07-2004, 02:08 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMackey
It appears to me that players like Hasek, Chelios and Luc Robitaille can be had for a bargain this year, and I made the assumption that so could the Toronto three, but you've all done a very good job of proving me wrong. Sorry to make that mistake.

Not to belabour the debate, but just a couple of thoughts for you to consider.

Hasek has plenty to prove. He retired to play roller hockey back home. He came back to Detroit under much fanfare and eventually lost his standing both in net and in teammate support it would seem to Joseph. In addition, should Hasek regain his form he stands to be compensated at a much higher rate than $2M. In fact I believe a "good" year will garner Hasek approximately $5M if I am to believe what I have read, and a great year will make him the highest paid goalie in the league. If he hadn't been hurt most of last season and hadn't been out of hockey the year before all together, I expect that a base of $6M to $8M would be what he would seek.

Chelios was coming off a contract in which I beleive he was considerably overpaid for his contributions. $6M for Chris was too much, but I believe that he recieved that contract because of what he had done for Detroit prior. I think many teams would have given him $3M to $4M however, but he made it very clear from what I understand that he had no intention at all of going elsewhere. This is a much different scenario than Roberts and Nieuwendyk who both wanted to play, and would prefer Toronto, but the were prepared to go elsewhere to get a contract.

Luc Robataille is coming off a season in which I believe he was paid not much more than this new contract. He had been uncerimoniuosly dumped by Detroit and rightly or wrongly was largely not considered to be an integral part of a contending team. I think that this differs considerably from the general perception of Robert's. And keep in mind that Roberts also took a pay cut from last years contract even after having a pretty good year.

So I must say that I don't agree with your assessment of these three Leaf contracts.

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07-07-2004, 02:11 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMackey
Well Chelios just signed for $3M (half of his salary last year), and Hasek signed for a base of $2M. You're right and so are others that I can't get in the minds of 29 GMs... but neither can you. I can look around the league and see that players are accepting far less than they had in the past.

I have also not read one single newspaper suggesting there were teams other than the Leafs looking at Belfour, Roberts or Nieuwendyk. I just heard Leaf fans and radio hosts in Toronto suggest what a loss it would be for the team if they were to sign elsewhere.

Primeau is coming off a playoff performance that some suggested was Conn Smythe worthy (had they made it to the Cup). Canadians have been screaming that he was left off the World Cup team. He's not close to 40 and has a better chance of staying healthy than either Roberts or Nieuwendyk. He took a $500,000 pay cut when there was likely to be some demand for his services.

Madden and Draper would've likely garnered some interest around the league because of their year-in-year-out Selke potential, but they probably got a little more than what they would've elsewhere too.

Luc Robitaille had comparable stats last year (51 points to lead the Kings), is of comparable age and is also a future Hall of Famer... didn't he re-sign for $1.45M? I'm certain he's in pretty good shape too. The grit that Roberts brings to the table is worth more than double the value?

The Leaf signings seem great to fans who realize that the team has a bottomless pit of money due to probably the best TV deals in the league and high gate prices. However, from what I've seen around the league, many teams are working under self-imposed caps. That means teams like Philly, St. Louis and previous spenders are letting players walk... while teams like Pittsburgh, LA and Chicago, with little commited to their payroll next season are trying to reload with unqualified RFAs and younger UFAs.

From what I was understanding from the media, all three players wanted to stay in Toronto, doesn't that usually qualify for some type of discount?

It appears to me that players like Hasek, Chelios and Luc Robitaille can be had for a bargain this year, and I made the assumption that so could the Toronto three, but you've all done a very good job of proving me wrong. Sorry to make that mistake.
A few points:

There was media speculation in Florida and Ottawa that those teams would have been interested in Roberts. It was just speculation, but it was there.

Primeau took a pay cut (as did Roberts) but is still paid more than either of our guys- and deservedly so. But he is hardly a "bargain."

I do think Roberts is worth twice as much as Robitaille.

Hasek will likely end up costing approximately the same as Belfour- again deservedly so.

Whether Roberts, Belfour, Nieuwy wanted to stay in Toronto is a good question. There were news stories suggsting that both Roberts and Nieuwy wanted to leave.

You are doing what a lot of fans are doing- foucssing on whether a player takes a paycut. What matters is what his final salary looks like. Nieuwy got a raise and Chelios got a pay cut- does that mean they got a bargain and we got robbed? They cost the same now? Seems about right to me. I think Chelios was overpaid last year, while Nieuwy was a bargain- and now they have come out even.

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07-07-2004, 02:13 PM
  #18
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Originally Posted by Vedder19
Good post...makes sense. Who really would have paid them, let alone Belfour, that kind of money...?
Belfour, perhaps Colorado
Roberts; Ottawa, Florida, Detroit perhaps,
Nieuwendyk, Not sure here, FLorida perhaps , but he would have been my biggest disapointment to loose because besides still playing well he seems o have had a good impact on the younger forwards. Another year of this type of influence in itself is almost worth the $3M IMO.

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07-07-2004, 03:07 PM
  #19
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Well Chelios just signed for $3M (half of his salary last year)
That's just the BASE salary.

There are bonuses on top, which they're hashing out right now.

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07-07-2004, 03:08 PM
  #20
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That's just the BASE salary.

There are bonuses on top, which they're hashing out right now.
VERY TRUE!!!!

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07-07-2004, 03:44 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMackey
Overspent = spending more than you need to

None of those players were getting that money from anywhere else, probably not even close, therefore JFJ overspent.
according to who? Slats?

That man should keep his mouth shut... he has done nothing in the last decade to warrant anyone taking him seriously

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07-07-2004, 03:49 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMackey
Well Chelios just signed for $3M (half of his salary last year), and Hasek signed for a base of $2M. You're right and so are others that I can't get in the minds of 29 GMs... but neither can you. I can look around the league and see that players are accepting far less than they had in the past.

I have also not read one single newspaper suggesting there were teams other than the Leafs looking at Belfour, Roberts or Nieuwendyk. I just heard Leaf fans and radio hosts in Toronto suggest what a loss it would be for the team if they were to sign elsewhere.

Primeau is coming off a playoff performance that some suggested was Conn Smythe worthy (had they made it to the Cup). Canadians have been screaming that he was left off the World Cup team. He's not close to 40 and has a better chance of staying healthy than either Roberts or Nieuwendyk. He took a $500,000 pay cut when there was likely to be some demand for his services.

Madden and Draper would've likely garnered some interest around the league because of their year-in-year-out Selke potential, but they probably got a little more than what they would've elsewhere too.

Luc Robitaille had comparable stats last year (51 points to lead the Kings), is of comparable age and is also a future Hall of Famer... didn't he re-sign for $1.45M? I'm certain he's in pretty good shape too. The grit that Roberts brings to the table is worth more than double the value?

The Leaf signings seem great to fans who realize that the team has a bottomless pit of money due to probably the best TV deals in the league and high gate prices. However, from what I've seen around the league, many teams are working under self-imposed caps. That means teams like Philly, St. Louis and previous spenders are letting players walk... while teams like Pittsburgh, LA and Chicago, with little commited to their payroll next season are trying to reload with unqualified RFAs and younger UFAs.

From what I was understanding from the media, all three players wanted to stay in Toronto, doesn't that usually qualify for some type of discount?

It appears to me that players like Hasek, Chelios and Luc Robitaille can be had for a bargain this year, and I made the assumption that so could the Toronto three, but you've all done a very good job of proving me wrong. Sorry to make that mistake.
wow... stop the presses. The media doesn't agree with a Toronto move?

The exact would happen if they didn't sign tese guys. Guaranteed.

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07-07-2004, 04:43 PM
  #23
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Timplap, Timmer, Trueblue... all good points.

I don't dispute that all three players have tremendous value to the Leafs and I certainly can't prove that they wouldn't have signed anywhere else for the same money.

I guess I was just optimistic that things were getting saner around the NHL as far as salaries were concerned. Its the owners/GMs that make all of the purchase decisions in the NHL, and the way the big-money teams spend directly influences how the agents negotiate with the small-money teams. As an Oiler fan I've been hopeful that we can finally ice a team that can stay competitive for a number of years on a payroll that makes sense (in the $35-40M range).

It just seems to me that in today's environment you should be able to ice a perennial contender for $40M worth of base salary (and maybe an extra $10M in bonuses).

This is basically what it came down to for me... the Leafs paid $1.5M more next season (whenever that is) to retain 3 players that will more than likely decrease in value due to their age and health. And IMO, the Leafs could've spent that combined $14.75M on three or four players that are in (or close to) their prime, could've had greater statistical impact & more long term value.

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07-07-2004, 04:46 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by MrMackey
And IMO, the Leafs could've spent that combined $14.75M on three or four players that are in (or close to) their prime, could've had greater statistical impact & more long term value.
Who exactly?

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07-07-2004, 04:51 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMackey
Timplap, Timmer, Trueblue... all good points.

I don't dispute that all three players have tremendous value to the Leafs and I certainly can't prove that they wouldn't have signed anywhere else for the same money.

I guess I was just optimistic that things were getting saner around the NHL as far as salaries were concerned.
Remember Holik- 9 Million. Kasparaitis - 5 million.

Things have gotten saner, just maybe not sane enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMackey
As an Oiler fan I've been hopeful that we can finally ice a team that can stay competitive for a number of years on a payroll that makes sense (in the $35-40M range).
I agree. I would like to see a more even playing field for small market teams as we see in the NFL. I think profit-sharing would help but I don't think that's too likely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMackey
. . .
And IMO, the Leafs could've spent that combined $14.75M on three or four players that are in (or close to) their prime, could've had greater statistical impact & more long term value.
Perhaps- although I'm not blown away by the free agents available. There's a lot of them, and some are quite good, but there isn't even one that really brings a complete game.

Btw- had we signed 3 or 4 players there would have been serious complaining about the Leafs throwing money around.

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