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Request: Pre NHL Stats

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Old
03-31-2011, 07:28 PM
  #1
Weztex
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Request: Pre NHL Stats

Hello there.

I am currently trying to build on a system that could integrate various hockey leagues into a common comparative system. The idea came from the old NHL equilibrium thread we've had in here a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find any public sites with statistical results of older leagues. I'd like to know if anyone have files, sources or such for non-NHL pro leagues. I am especially interested in the NHA, WCHL and PCHA.

Thanks for the help.

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03-31-2011, 07:46 PM
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Prophecy35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weztex View Post
Hello there.

I am currently trying to build on a system that could integrate various hockey leagues into a common comparative system. The idea came from the old NHL equilibrium thread we've had in here a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find any public sites with statistical results of older leagues. I'd like to know if anyone have files, sources or such for non-NHL pro leagues. I am especially interested in the NHA, WCHL and PCHA.

Thanks for the help.
I know hockeydb and hockey-reference have info like that, however, I'm not sure how much info you need, so it may not be enough.

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03-31-2011, 08:15 PM
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Weztex
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I only need Games Played, Goals and Assist (when given). Everything else is a bonus.

Hockeydb and hockey-reference show stats in players individual pages but, as far as I know, they don't have any page for skaters stats when it comes to older leagues. I'm basically looking for something like this : http://www.hockey-reference.com/leag...8_skaters.html

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03-31-2011, 10:09 PM
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seventieslord
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an sihr membership will get you that for $20 a year.

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04-01-2011, 12:29 AM
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http://www.mediafire.com/?81zzsfgw9sz9nlm

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04-01-2011, 02:09 AM
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Weztex
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pnep, always there when you need him. Many thanks to you sir. That's exactly what I was looking for.

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an sihr membership will get you that for $20 a year.
I never even thought of it. That said I'm not so familiar with it either. I'll probably have a membership sooner than later though. Thanks for the reminder.

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05-30-2011, 12:32 PM
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Iain Fyffe
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an sihr membership will get you that for $20 a year.
It's $30 a year actually, US or Canadian.

I'm bringing back a lot of old threads lately, but what do you expect? I'm a historian.

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05-30-2011, 01:11 PM
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Any idea as to what standard they used to decide what games they would or wouldn't count in the standings for the PCHA?

I know the "official record" now includes one game that wasn't included in the standings in the Trail (Taylor scored 6 goals in it), and they dropped a few that were (2 games in one year that were played as exhibitions of 6-man hockey).

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05-30-2011, 01:20 PM
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Iain Fyffe
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Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
Any idea as to what standard they used to decide what games they would or wouldn't count in the standings for the PCHA?

I know the "official record" now includes one game that wasn't included in the standings in the Trail (Taylor scored 6 goals in it), and they dropped a few that were (2 games in one year that were played as exhibitions of 6-man hockey).
By the time of the PCHA, leagues had regular schedules and stuck to them pretty well. This is unlike the early days of hockey, when the difference between a league game and an exhbition was often murky.

Basically, if the game was intended to count toward the league standing at the end, it's counted in the playing stats. It wouldn't suprise me if Coleman did miss a game here and there, since he was just one man putting together a mountain of information. Oftentimes the league schedule would not be published before the season, meaning you would have to search for games a day at a time.

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05-30-2011, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
By the time of the PCHA, leagues had regular schedules and stuck to them pretty well. This is unlike the early days of hockey, when the difference between a league game and an exhbition was often murky.

Basically, if the game was intended to count toward the league standing at the end, it's counted in the playing stats. It wouldn't suprise me if Coleman did miss a game here and there, since he was just one man putting together a mountain of information. Oftentimes the league schedule would not be published before the season, meaning you would have to search for games a day at a time.
I was talking about the modern stats as used at the HHoF and Hockey-Reference.

The stats lines for Cyclone include an end of season game after the winner was decided that Coleman didn't include in his record, while there are several other years where a game Coleman included are dropped.

I can understand some games being missed or not played, but they dropped games that were played. They don't seem to have not counted any of the NHA games in the same way.

These two games were played as exhibitions of 6-man hockey, but I don't know if the PCHA counted them in the standings or not. While Coleman did, Dan Diamond and company certainly don't.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Ob5jAAAAIBAJ&sjid=qXoNAAAAIBAJ&pg=15 28%2C1745993

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=UbRSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XzcNAAAAIBAJ&pg=60 21%2C3753437

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Old
05-30-2011, 02:33 PM
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I can strongly recommend the hockey-databank which has well-structured data easy to work with.

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/hockey-databank/

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05-30-2011, 03:29 PM
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Iain Fyffe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
I can understand some games being missed or not played, but they dropped games that were played. They don't seem to have not counted any of the NHA games in the same way.

These two games were played as exhibitions of 6-man hockey, but I don't know if the PCHA counted them in the standings or not. While Coleman did, Dan Diamond and company certainly don't.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Ob5jAAAAIBAJ&sjid=qXoNAAAAIBAJ&pg=15 28%2C1745993

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=UbRSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XzcNAAAAIBAJ&pg=60 21%2C3753437
These games were clearly exhibition games, used by New Westminster to prepare for games against eastern clubs. They were not even using PCHA rules, so counting them in the standings would have been odd. I believe the PCHA season would have been over at the time of these games, so the league championship would have already been decided.

If Coleman counted those in the league stats, he was clearly wrong to have done so.

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05-30-2011, 05:09 PM
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BM67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
These games were clearly exhibition games, used by New Westminster to prepare for games against eastern clubs. They were not even using PCHA rules, so counting them in the standings would have been odd. I believe the PCHA season would have been over at the time of these games, so the league championship would have already been decided.

If Coleman counted those in the league stats, he was clearly wrong to have done so.
It was Victoria which went on to play against the eastern clubs. Coleman lists a Victoria at New Westminster games as postponed and never played.

The standings without these games is

TeamGP W L T PTS GF GA
Victoria Aristocrats 15 10 5 0 20 68 56
Vancouver Millionaires 14 7 7 0 14 71 68
New Westminster Royals 13 4 9 0 8 46 61

They are certainly meant to be part of the regular 16 game schedule. I can also understand why one would think they shouldn't be counted.

The question would be one of did the PCHA count them? Obviously if they didn't, then nobody should, but if they did shouldn't everybody?

Then there are at least a couple more seasons with games that were played and counted by Coleman, but not counted now.

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05-30-2011, 05:13 PM
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Nalyd Psycho
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Wouldn't the standings in newspapers of the time be accurate? The Vancouver Sun generally had good PCHA coverage.

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05-30-2011, 05:36 PM
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BM67
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Wouldn't the standings in newspapers of the time be accurate? The Vancouver Sun generally had good PCHA coverage.
Google is lacking in west coast papers with large gaps at times. I don't have any other source for the period.

There were no standings given in the papers that I linked above.

You would need to find a standings list after the games in question were played, when the standings didn't matter as the winner was already clear, or possibly reference to last years record at the beginning of the next season.

I didn't turn up anything in a relatively short search at the time I found the above articles. It would be easier if the search function was better of course.

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05-30-2011, 05:46 PM
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Iain Fyffe
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Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
The standings without these games is

TeamGP W L T PTS GF GA
Victoria Aristocrats 15 10 5 0 20 68 56
Vancouver Millionaires 14 7 7 0 14 71 68
New Westminster Royals 13 4 9 0 8 46 61

They are certainly meant to be part of the regular 16 game schedule. I can also understand why one would think they shouldn't be counted.
Okay, another important thing to remember is that if games at the end of a season have no impact on the championship, they were often not played. So even if Vancouver had won its two remaining games and Victoria lost their last game, Victoria would be 11-5 and Vancouver 9-7.

Without looking into it, I'd guess that the remaining league games were recast as exhibition games to practice some six-man hockey.

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The question would be one of did the PCHA count them? Obviously if they didn't, then nobody should, but if they did shouldn't everybody?
Yes they should. I might do a little digging into this to confirm my above suspicions.

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Old
05-30-2011, 06:22 PM
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Iain Fyffe
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I've contacted a colleague with expertise in the PCHA and asked him to clarify. But given that these games would have no bearing on the championship, were played 10 days after the last previous game, and were played in neutral sites using 6 men rather than 7, my money's on them being exhibitions.

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05-30-2011, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Weztex View Post
I only need Games Played, Goals and Assist (when given). Everything else is a bonus.

Hockeydb and hockey-reference show stats in players individual pages but, as far as I know, they don't have any page for skaters stats when it comes to older leagues. I'm basically looking for something like this : http://www.hockey-reference.com/leag...8_skaters.html
You can get team-by-team stats from hockeydb:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/255.html
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/177.html

I don't think they're complete though.

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05-30-2011, 08:54 PM
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Iain Fyffe
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Originally Posted by Hoser View Post
You can get team-by-team stats from hockeydb:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/255.html
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/177.html

I don't think they're complete though.
They look complete to me, other than the usual lack of goalie stats.

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