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The Official Scott Gomez Thread part tres - Siesta Edition

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07-20-2011, 07:33 AM
  #851
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Sure, why not? The Devils had (at least) two long runs within your time frame 10 years ago.
Gomez was PPG in over 40 playoff games with the Rags.

When Habs traded for Gomez, he had 50+ points in his last 50+ playoff games...

It's easy to just assume he got those stats early on with the Devils... when the truth is... Gomez wasn't over 0,50 ppg in the playoffs until he reached 25-26 years old... he's gonna be 32... The irony here, is that it is actually his first few playoff with the Devils that brings down his career PPG in the playoffs...

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07-20-2011, 08:20 AM
  #852
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Playing with MaxPac on his line will obviously help, no more Moen or Darche on his line. Even with one injury to the top 6, we have enough depth to still put good wingers with Gomez.

But Markov is the key. Gomez is completely different with Markov in the lineup, and no one missed him more last season than Gomez. People completely forget how good Markov is, especially the baffoons who think he was the worst signing this off season. More Markov means more puck possession, less time in our own end, and a better power play.

With Markov in the lineup:

52 GP, 9 G, 36 A, 45 Pts (pace = 71 pts per 82 game season)

Without Markov:

106 GP, 10 G, 42 A, 52 Pts (pace = 40 pts per 82 game season)

Factor in Subban and you will almost always have one of Markov or Subban on the ice with the second line (Gomez). I expect far better things 5-on-5 for that reason alone.

I'm calling 67 points for Gomez this year.

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07-20-2011, 09:38 AM
  #853
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Originally Posted by CGG View Post
Playing with MaxPac on his line will obviously help, no more Moen or Darche on his line. Even with one injury to the top 6, we have enough depth to still put good wingers with Gomez.

But Markov is the key. Gomez is completely different with Markov in the lineup, and no one missed him more last season than Gomez. People completely forget how good Markov is, especially the baffoons who think he was the worst signing this off season. More Markov means more puck possession, less time in our own end, and a better power play.

With Markov in the lineup:

52 GP, 9 G, 36 A, 45 Pts (pace = 71 pts per 82 game season)

Without Markov:

106 GP, 10 G, 42 A, 52 Pts (pace = 40 pts per 82 game season)

Factor in Subban and you will almost always have one of Markov or Subban on the ice with the second line (Gomez). I expect far better things 5-on-5 for that reason alone.

I'm calling 67 points for Gomez this year.
Bold prediction. So Gomez needs others to make him better, thats the problem. A high paid players should make people around him better not vice versa. There lies the problem with him. IMO he will be lucky to crack 50 pts

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07-20-2011, 09:42 AM
  #854
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Bold prediction. So Gomez needs others to make him better, thats the problem. A high paid players should make people around him better not vice versa. There lies the problem with him. IMO he will be lucky to crack 50 pts
It's a team sport and one where an elite puck moving D like Markov makes everyone better. I'd be willing to bet you'd see similar numbers for any centerman who played long periods with and long period without Markov on this team. Especially if they played on the PP. Plecky for example has his ups and downs too and I wouldn't be surprised if his production dipped when Markov was out of the lineup too.

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07-20-2011, 10:18 AM
  #855
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
It's a team sport and one where an elite puck moving D like Markov makes everyone better. I'd be willing to bet you'd see similar numbers for any centerman who played long periods with and long period without Markov on this team. Especially if they played on the PP. Plecky for example has his ups and downs too and I wouldn't be surprised if his production dipped when Markov was out of the lineup too.
As a lifelong Habs fan I can only hope Gomez bounces back but Ive watched enough hockey and other sports to know when a guy lost a step. These things can happen overnight it seems. Im not saying he will have 38 pts again but i think 67 is far fetched. 50 would be a good year for him now

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07-20-2011, 10:21 AM
  #856
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Gomez was PPG in over 40 playoff games with the Rags.

When Habs traded for Gomez, he had 50+ points in his last 50+ playoff games...

It's easy to just assume he got those stats early on with the Devils... when the truth is... Gomez wasn't over 0,50 ppg in the playoffs until he reached 25-26 years old... he's gonna be 32... The irony here, is that it is actually his first few playoff with the Devils that brings down his career PPG in the playoffs...
And yet the list wasn't a PPG based list (it was raw points), and so a major reason why Gomez is on that list is the 36 points he got with NJ during their 3 consecutive deep runs. Interestingly enough, though, if we alter the date range to include only post-lock out years (which is by far more relevant, given the changes), he only slides to 11th on THAT list, which I found more surprising in some ways, given his past 3 post seasons (all of which are closer to his career average in PPG, as opposed to his "hey day").

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07-20-2011, 10:22 AM
  #857
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As a lifelong Habs fan I can only hope Gomez bounces back but Ive watched enough hockey and other sports to know when a guy lost a step. These things can happen overnight it seems. Im not saying he will have 38 pts again but i think 67 is far fetched. 50 would be a good year for him now
You might be right, but for me his playoffs performance indicate that's not the case. He should still be in his prime in terms of age. It's not like he's an overly physical player and he still skates like the wind. We'll have to watch how it all unfolds I suppose.

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07-20-2011, 10:27 AM
  #858
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Originally Posted by Zorba View Post
As a lifelong Habs fan I can only hope Gomez bounces back but Ive watched enough hockey and other sports to know when a guy lost a step. These things can happen overnight it seems. Im not saying he will have 38 pts again but i think 67 is far fetched. 50 would be a good year for him now
With the balance we have, 50-60 pts should be more than enough from Gomez...and he should rebound from a disaster of last year...everyone knows he's overpaid, we get it...but if he can rebound from last year all Habs fans should be happy...if he doesn't then Wade Redden him to the AHL....pretty simple, and all of the cap hit drama queens hopefully will relax....

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Old
07-20-2011, 10:55 AM
  #859
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I bet you do... he certainly didn't come through in the 2nd half of the season like you were sure that he would.
He did get better in the 2nd half. I never expected him to turn stud overnight, but I did expect an improvement. And I saw it.

That won't be good enough this year, though, as you can probably tell.

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07-20-2011, 10:55 AM
  #860
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And yet the list wasn't a PPG based list (it was raw points), and so a major reason why Gomez is on that list is the 36 points he got with NJ during their 3 consecutive deep runs. Interestingly enough, though, if we alter the date range to include only post-lock out years (which is by far more relevant, given the changes), he only slides to 11th on THAT list, which I found more surprising in some ways, given his past 3 post seasons (all of which are closer to his career average in PPG, as opposed to his "hey day").
He is 57 in 63 since the lockout...

He was 42 in 77 before the lockout...

He had 36 points in 72 games in those three big runs...

He had 63 points in 68 games after those 3 big runs...

He had 34 in 43 games outside of Jersey (last 4 seasons)

He had 65 points in 97 games with Jersey (first 7 seasons)


Like I said before, his career playoff PPG ratio is actually LOWERED by those 3 runs. He was 0,50 ppg for those 3 runs. He was close to PPG since those runs.

Saying that the three big runs in Jersey is what put him on that list is a falsehood. He garnered almost double the points in almost the same amount of games since those three big runs.

When we acquired him, he had 39 points in his last 37 playoff games (since the return from the lockout), with no big run.

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07-20-2011, 11:03 AM
  #861
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Saying that the three big runs in Jersey is what put him on that list is a falsehood.
No it's not. Since it's not production rate dependent, raw totals are all that matters. And without the raw totals from those first 72 games in New Jersey, he could have been as low as Martin Straka at 46th with 45 points (if he wasn't on a playoff team, or whatever). THAT's the fact.

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07-20-2011, 11:16 AM
  #862
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
No it's not. Since it's not production rate dependent, raw totals are all that matters. And without the raw totals from those first 72 games in New Jersey, he could have been as low as Martin Straka at 46th with 45 points (if he wasn't on a playoff team, or whatever). THAT's the fact.
Without those 72 games, he had 63 points in 68 games.... not 45 like your poor Straka example.

You're simply arguing that his amount of games is what put him there, I hope you realize that....

Take a deep breath for a second, and realize that if you take out the 68 games after, he's even lower than Martin Straka, cuz then all he would have is 36 points in 72 games.

Then the argument is what part of his stats is more important to fill out the 99 points he got to get on that list... : the 36 points he got in 72 games, or the 63 points he got in the following 68 games...?

You're actually arguing that the 36 points in 72 games are more important to fill out his 99 points total, than the 63 points that make up almost 2/3 of those 99 points...

Essentially you're saying that 36 > 63 to fill out 99...

Don't you see the fallacy in this?

Sure, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that he needs those 36 points to fill the 99 points, but his defining sequence, the one that fills most of his 99 points, came AFTER those three big runs.

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07-20-2011, 11:29 AM
  #863
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I'm not sure how a player like Gomez can put up better stats in the playoffs than in the regular season, historically the playoffs have lower total scoring, so you'd expect any given player to do less well in the playoffs.

Now I remember. He's always been better, apparently, in the second half of regular seasons than in the first. I guess he just takes his time to get in the zone.

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07-20-2011, 11:35 AM
  #864
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
You're simply arguing that his amount of games is what put him there, I hope you realize that....
That's exactly what I'm saying, again, because that was an accumulation list, not a production rate list. He's 7th on this list in points over that time frame, and he's 7th on the list of games played over the same range. Fewer games, and he'd be lower. More games, and he might be higher. And no, it didn't take much genius to come up with that. Having said that, I didn't think it would take any to follow it, either.

If you're trying to make a point about how this list "proves" that Gomez was valuable in the playoffs in the past, I don't think that's news to anyone. If anyone tries to use this list to point out anything more fundamental than accumulation, though, I'll just go through that same list, over the same period, and point out the guys like Sakic who had 94 points in 96 games, or Forsberg who had 92 in 83, and how they diminish whatever "meaning" Gomez's "ranking" has c.f. all the players below him on the list.

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07-20-2011, 07:29 PM
  #865
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At one point didn't he have like, 21 points in 23 games when Patches was on his line?

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07-20-2011, 07:38 PM
  #866
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At one point didn't he have like, 21 points in 23 games when Patches was on his line?
All this little connect the dots game leads to is suggestions that a 900K young star was needed to make a $7 million vet look serviceable. That doesn't really flatter Gomez too much.

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07-20-2011, 08:23 PM
  #867
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
All this little connect the dots game leads to is suggestions that a 900K young star was needed to make a $7 million vet look serviceable. That doesn't really flatter Gomez too much.
Some players needs other players to make them better, some don't. That's the way it is.

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07-20-2011, 08:34 PM
  #868
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Some players needs other players to make them better, some don't. That's the way it is.
Yep, it just sucks that our 7M$ veteran needs a kid for him to produce.

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07-20-2011, 09:40 PM
  #869
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I don't get why people are arguing over this.

Gomez is a borderline top 6 forward. He's inconsistent as hell. His defensive ability is way overrated, he's an average player on D at best. He's getting a salary he's nowhere close to earning. He had a **** year.

He's been a passenger on his line for the past 3 years at least. I couldn't care less what he did in the 2000's, it's not helping him do anything on the team right now. Honestly, do you see anyone talking about Wade Redden's years in Ottawa to argue he's a valuable player in the NHL?

The good thing is he's either having a decent year or he's waived/traded/bought out at the end of the season. He could also be traded while having a decent season.

Anyone arguing a 7M$ 40-point player is valuable to any team is kidding himself.

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07-21-2011, 08:48 AM
  #870
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
All this little connect the dots game leads to is suggestions that a 900K young star was needed to make a $7 million vet look serviceable. That doesn't really flatter Gomez too much.
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Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
Yep, it just sucks that our 7M$ veteran needs a kid for him to produce.
What the hell kind of logic is that?

It sucks that we found two players who clicked on a hockey team? Yes Patches helped Gomez produce and vise versa. That's what's supposed to happen. That's not a bad thing lol. Yes he's paid 7 million but at the end of the day you need to realize he's just another player on the team. It's perfectly normal that any player throughout history clicks more with one guy than the other.

Should Gomez be able to produce by himself out there? Is that what you guys mean because I'm not following your logic at all.

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07-21-2011, 08:54 AM
  #871
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What the hell kind of logic is that?

It sucks that we found two players who clicked on a hockey team? Yes Patches helped Gomez produce and vise versa. That's what's supposed to happen. That's not a bad thing lol. Yes he's paid 7 million but at the end of the day you need to realize he's just another player on the team. It's perfectly normal that any player throughout history clicks more with one guy than the other.

Should Gomez be able to produce by himself out there? Is that what you guys mean because I'm not following your logic at all.
It's sound logic.

Compare Gomez to Plekanec. Does Plekanec play worse when Markov goes down, when his linemates get injured and he has Moen or Lapierre on his line? Yes, he plays worse, but he doesn't collapse to zero. Cammalleri and AK46 were both injured for significant parts of the year, Markov was injured all year, he had 4th line tourists on his line and so he declined from 70 points to 56 points. It's too bad, but nobody blames him.

Gomez had something like 19 points in 23 games with Pacioretty on his line, my numbers are off by a few. That means without Pacioretty, he had 18 points in ~55 games or so. He collapsed to zero.

For a 7 million dollar player, even a 5 million dollar, you have no choice but to tolerate someone who declines when his linemates go down. But he should not decline to zero in a catastrophic manner like Gomez does.

PS: What distinguishes Gomez from Plekanec?
1) Plekanec is an excellent shooter. He scores 20 goals every year. So even if he has only one guy he can pass to, he's still dangerous. Gomez needs two guys he can pass to, as he has no shot he's willing to use. Put two shooters on Plekanec's wing and that's 3 guys to defend, put two shooters on Gomez' wing and that's 2 guys to defend. Which do you think is harder?
2) Plekanec rocks defensively so fans tolerate if he goes 3 or 4 games without producing points.

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07-21-2011, 08:55 AM
  #872
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What the hell kind of logic is that?

It sucks that we found two players who clicked on a hockey team? Yes Patches helped Gomez produce and vise versa. That's what's supposed to happen. That's not a bad thing lol. Yes he's paid 7 million but at the end of the day you need to realize he's just another player on the team. It's perfectly normal that any player throughout history clicks more with one guy than the other.

Should Gomez be able to produce by himself out there? Is that what you guys mean because I'm not following your logic at all.
Except Gomez went through the entire team and really didn't click with anyone, except the 900k kid.

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07-21-2011, 08:59 AM
  #873
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It's sound logic.

Compare Gomez to Plekanec. Does Plekanec play worse when Markov goes down, when his linemates get injured and he has Moen or Lapierre on his line? Yes, he plays worse, but he doesn't collapse to zero. Cammalleri and AK46 were both injured for significant parts of the year, Markov was injured all year, he had 4th line tourists on his line and so he declined from 70 points to 56 points. It's too bad, but nobody blames him.

Gomez had something like 19 points in 23 games with Pacioretty on his line, my numbers are off by a few. That means without Pacioretty, he had 18 points in ~55 games or so. He collapsed to zero.

For a 7 million dollar player, even a 5 million dollar, you have no choice but to tolerate someone who declines when his linemates go down. But he should not decline to zero in a catastrophic manner like Gomez does.
I can also say that if Gionta wasn't snake bitten at the begining of the season Gomez would have had many more points. He wasn't burying the puck like he can. Gomez gave him beauty feed after beauty feed and the puck just didn't want to go in for Gio.

It's a team sport, you're only as good as your teammates. It's perfectly normal to juggle lines and find duos that work. Pacioretty and Gomez were hot together for a while. That's a good thing, not a bad thing in any way, shape or form.

Sounds to me like a lot of you guys have your minds made up that nothing is good enough for Gomez, because that's a stretch of an argument to say the least.

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07-21-2011, 09:02 AM
  #874
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No, it's a bad thing if Gomez depends on perfect chemistry.

What happens when Gionta or Pacioretty get injured? What happens when Gionta gets supposedly "snake-bitten"? He collapses to zero. That's too big a risk for the team, for Gomez to be completely dependent on everyone else.

Plekanec gets worse when he loses his linemates or when they get "snake-bitten" or whatever, but he doesn't collapse to zero. He was able to produce with Lapierre on his line, for example.

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Sounds to me like a lot of you guys have your minds made up that nothing is good enough for Gomez, because that's a stretch of an argument to say the least.
I just said two posts back what he needs to do to become good again.

He needs to relearn how to shoot the puck. If he becomes a 15-goal scorer again, let alone a 20-goal scorer like Plekanec, he can become an effective player again and won't be 100% dependent on his linemates.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 07-21-2011 at 01:09 PM. Reason: merged
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07-21-2011, 09:10 AM
  #875
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No, it's a bad thing if Gomez depends on perfect chemistry.

What happens when Gionta or Pacioretty get injured? What happens when Gionta gets supposedly "snake-bitten"? He collapses to zero. That's too big a risk for the team, for Gomez to be completely dependent on everyone else.

Plekanec gets worse when he loses his linemates or when they get "snake-bitten" or whatever, but he doesn't collapse to zero. He was able to produce with Lapierre on his line, for example.
What happens when anyone gets injured? I really don't get what your getting at. We found a good line-mate for him that clicked for 20 games. Once Patches went down Gomez and Gio started to get their groove back. It's the way it goes. You're only as good as the guy who's the sniper when your strength is passing.

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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I just said two posts back what he needs to do to become good again.

He needs to relearn how to shoot the puck. If he becomes a 15-goal scorer again, let alone a 20-goal scorer like Plekanec, he can become an effective player again and won't be 100% dependent on his linemates.
He was never a goal scorer. He's a passer.


Last edited by Habs 4 Life: 07-21-2011 at 10:36 AM.
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