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The Official Scott Gomez Thread part tres - Siesta Edition

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Old
07-21-2011, 04:19 PM
  #901
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
It obvious Plekanec would bounce back.

The same is not true of Gomez.
Rationally -- I know, it's not something that's possible with Gomez -- it's actually far more obvious that Gomez will bounce back. He has a longer history of production than Plekanec had, and the causes for his lack of scoring are well-known to regress heavily to the mean.

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07-21-2011, 04:20 PM
  #902
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Looking over the last couple of pages, it looks like I may be the last person to post him “talking” about having a better season this year…you may or may not be speaking to me, but what I thought interesting is that Willie O’ree called him to talk about the situation he is in. No earth shattering news in what I posted, just info I passed along.

To be honest, I really don’t care if people bash him or praise him…doesn’t mean anything to me. But come on…you really let positive comments from faceless people on a message board irk you?
It irks me from a message board perspective. I don't really care what people here think to be honest.

It's not like HF is the knowledgeable place it used to be.

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07-21-2011, 04:24 PM
  #903
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Pretty sure he said he needed to be better last offseason.

But hey, some people have made up their mind that some people can do no wrong, even though they continuously **** the bed, despite being top salary on the team and keep getting prime ice-time to redeem themselves.

Yup, nothing wrong in that picture.

Who has ever said Gomez can do no wrong? everyone here, and Gomez himself has acknowledged his poor performance last season. Season before, no issues with his production IMHO.

This season, for Gomez, should be about redemption. If JM let's him play second line minutes with quality wingers he will put up 50 - 60 points and that is really all we can ask, his career average. Whether he makes 7 million or 2 million matters not, he is the best option at 2C for us, for now.

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07-21-2011, 04:25 PM
  #904
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Rationally -- I know, it's not something that's possible with Gomez -- it's actually far more obvious that Gomez will bounce back. He has a longer history of production than Plekanec had, and the causes for his lack of scoring are well-known to regress heavily to the mean.
Unlike Plekanec, it wasn't as night and day.

Gomez has been on a downward slope for some time now. Not unlike former key players like Bertuzzi and McCabe.

It's quite possible he'll hit 50 points again, but he's hardly a reliable offensive center anymore. The past 3 years, he's been wildly inconsistent and extremely dependent on his teammates to achieve anything close to top 6 production.

It wouldn't surprise if he had to do redefine himself in the near future as a role player that can chip in. But then again, he doesn't exactly have the faceoff ability to be a defensive specialist.

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07-21-2011, 04:26 PM
  #905
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Rationally -- I know, it's not something that's possible with Gomez -- it's actually far more obvious that Gomez will bounce back. He has a longer history of production than Plekanec had, and the causes for his lack of scoring are well-known to regress heavily to the mean.
You can also factor in that other well-known statistic. For the most part, the production of fowards tends to decline after age 31

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07-21-2011, 04:28 PM
  #906
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If it was obvious, why did he only get a 1 year deal, he got a good deal after he put up a 70 point season.

quoted wrong post


Last edited by habfan1968: 07-21-2011 at 04:37 PM. Reason: ooops derp
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07-21-2011, 04:35 PM
  #907
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As I said, there's no point arguing. He's a borderline top 6 forward, he's way overpaid, he's an average defender and it's quite likely this is his last season (as finding 40-50 point players for under 7.35M$ is quite easy).

There's not much room for argument to be honest. I don't really care if Gomez blows chunks again this year, but I don't think he can drop to this year's level again (though I'm not expecting him to do better). The only thing that really irks me in all of this is people who bring up him talking as a positive thing, when talking's pretty much the only thing he's been doing for the past 2 years.

Are you sure you know who you are talking about? Gomez put up 59 points in 78 games in 09-10, second only to Pleks who put up 70 in 82 games. Gomez led the team in assists and placed himself 28th in the league among centers. So, really Gomez had a bad season, deal with it. If we see progress as a team, more wins, deeper playoffs etc.. Gomez stays

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07-21-2011, 04:37 PM
  #908
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
Unlike Plekanec, it wasn't as night and day.

Gomez has been on a downward slope for some time now. Not unlike former key players like Bertuzzi and McCabe.

It's quite possible he'll hit 50 points again, but he's hardly a reliable offensive center anymore. The past 3 years, he's been wildly inconsistent and extremely dependent on his teammates to achieve anything close to top 6 production.

It wouldn't surprise if he had to do redefine himself in the near future as a role player that can chip in. But then again, he doesn't exactly have the faceoff ability to be a defensive specialist.
you know the guy is a pass first type of player right ?

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07-21-2011, 04:48 PM
  #909
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Lets hope he bring more passion next year


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07-21-2011, 04:48 PM
  #910
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Originally Posted by habfan1968 View Post
Are you sure you know who you are talking about? Gomez put up 59 points in 78 games in 09-10, second only to Pleks who put up 70 in 82 games. Gomez led the team in assists and placed himself 28th in the league among centers. So, really Gomez had a bad season, deal with it. If we see progress as a team, more wins, deeper playoffs etc.. Gomez stays
He also put up 58 points in his last season with the Rangers. He still wasn't very good there. He was, at best, a second line center and they unloaded him when they could, so they could acquire someone who can contribute a lot more offensively for the same price.

Of course he had a bad season, that's not the point. He hasn't been a bonafide top 6 forward for the last 3 years. He's a borderline top 6 forward.

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07-21-2011, 04:48 PM
  #911
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
Unlike Plekanec, it wasn't as night and day.

Gomez has been on a downward slope for some time now. Not unlike former key players like Bertuzzi and McCabe.

It's quite possible he'll hit 50 points again, but he's hardly a reliable offensive center anymore. The past 3 years, he's been wildly inconsistent and extremely dependent on his teammates to achieve anything close to top 6 production.

It wouldn't surprise if he had to do redefine himself in the near future as a role player that can chip in. But then again, he doesn't exactly have the faceoff ability to be a defensive specialist.

Gomez had a bad season sure. Again I have to question your statements above. Prior to last year he posted point totals of 59, 58, 70 and 60 points over the previous 4 seasons, all together wildly inconsistent? Take out the 70 point season and he looks bang on to his average. Top it all off, Gomez gave our habs his second best ever playoff point production in his career in 09-10.

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07-21-2011, 04:49 PM
  #912
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you know the guy is a pass first type of player right ?
With a shooting % of 4.5%, I would hope so.

I love seeing my .150% 3-point shooters throw it all game from downtown, y'know?

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07-21-2011, 04:53 PM
  #913
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Originally Posted by habfan1968 View Post
Gomez had a bad season sure. Again I have to question your statements above. Prior to last year he posted point totals of 59, 58, 70 and 60 points over the previous 4 seasons, all together wildly inconsistent? Take out the 70 point season and he looks bang on to his average. Top it all off, Gomez gave our habs his second best ever playoff point production in his career in 09-10.
In New York (his last season) and his first in Montreal, he pretty much took half the season to get any type of decent top 6 production.

If that isn't wildly inconsistent, I have no clue what is.

And also, Brian Gionta had a pretty strong playoff performance. I can't say if that was the reason Gomez put up good points, but he was a lot more noticeable than his centerman.

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07-21-2011, 04:54 PM
  #914
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Originally Posted by habfan1968 View Post
If it was obvious, why did he only get a 1 year deal, he got a good deal after he put up a 70 point season.

quoted wrong post
I thought it was obvious, which is why I was unhappy with a 1-year deal. The reason for that is Plekanec was always working hard the whole time, and his problems were not skilled based but hockey-mind based, i.e. he was having head-case issues. Happens to everyone, once the issues went away he would be dominant again.

Gainey obviously didn't think it was obvious. In this case however it worked out beautifully for the team, we signed Plekanec long-term and got a hometown discount. There is no harm done.

I hope Gomez works out. I honestly believe that if there are no injuries/slumps to his linemates he can bounce back to a 55-60 point season. My concern is that if the slightest thing goes wrong in that department, and they do the majority of the time, he will collapse again.

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07-21-2011, 04:56 PM
  #915
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He also put up 58 points in his last season with the Rangers. He still wasn't very good there. He was, at best, a second line center and they unloaded him when they could, so they could acquire someone who can contribute a lot more offensively for the same price.

Of course he had a bad season, that's not the point. He hasn't been a bonafide top 6 forward for the last 3 years. He's a borderline top 6 forward.
think you'd be surprised to know what's the average for 2nd liners...


just so you know, last Cup winners had two players over 60 pts only on their team... Krejci and Lucic with 62 pts...

and the other SC finalist ? well, only 3 players over 50 pts (need 6 players to form a top 6 you know )

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07-21-2011, 04:56 PM
  #916
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He also put up 58 points in his last season with the Rangers. He still wasn't very good there. He was, at best, a second line center and they unloaded him when they could, so they could acquire someone who can contribute a lot more offensively for the same price.

Of course he had a bad season, that's not the point. He hasn't been a bonafide top 6 forward for the last 3 years. He's a borderline top 6 forward.

Sorry, that is incorrect he is still a bona fide top 6 player in 07-08 he was second in team points behind jagr, by 1 point so by your definition Jagr was borderline top 6? the very next season he only got 58 points but it was still good enough for second behind Zherdev, another borderline top 6 guy. in 09 10 he finished with 59 points second only to Pleks, but ahead of Cammy and Gionta, are they also not top 6 material?

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07-21-2011, 05:00 PM
  #917
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I thought it was obvious, which is why I was unhappy with a 1-year deal. The reason for that is Plekanec was always working hard the whole time, and his problems were not skilled based but hockey-mind based, i.e. he was having head-case issues. Happens to everyone, once the issues went away he would be dominant again.

Gainey obviously didn't think it was obvious. In this case however it worked out beautifully for the team, we signed Plekanec long-term and got a hometown discount. There is no harm done.

I hope Gomez works out. I honestly believe that if there are no injuries/slumps to his linemates he can bounce back to a 55-60 point season. My concern is that if the slightest thing goes wrong in that department, and they do the majority of the time, he will collapse again.
Here is the rub though, if Gio or MAX are injured, the club needs to give Gomez some one to shoot the puck. Out of his 675 points, 508 are assists. Call me crazy but that says play maker to me.

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07-21-2011, 05:00 PM
  #918
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Sorry, that is incorrect he is still a bona fide top 6 player in 07-08 he was second in team points behind jagr, by 1 point so by your definition Jagr was borderline top 6? the very next season he only got 58 points but it was still good enough for second behind Zherdev, another borderline top 6 guy. in 09 10 he finished with 59 points second only to Pleks, but ahead of Cammy and Gionta, are they also not top 6 material?
Gomez at 15 goals and 45 assists is a satisfactory 2nd line center.

You're not accounting for the fact that there are 1.5-1.8 assists per goal scored. Cammalleri's 26 goals+24 assists in 60 games is vastly superior to the 12 goals and 47 assists in 78 games Gomez had that year.

I think the criticism would go away if Gomez were to play like a 60 point center and not a 40 point center.

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07-21-2011, 05:02 PM
  #919
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Gomez at 15 goals and 45 assists is a satisfactory 2nd line center.

You're not accounting for the fact that there are 1.5-1.8 assists per goal scored. Cammalleri's 26 goals+24 assists in 60 games is vastly superior to the 12 goals and 47 assists in 78 games Gomez had that year.

I think the criticism would go away if Gomez were to play like a 60 point center and not a 40 point center.
Wrong, and your 1st sentence shows it... 60 pts for a 2nd line C isnt satisfactory, it's above average...

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07-21-2011, 05:04 PM
  #920
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
think you'd be surprised to know what's the average for 2nd liners...


just so you know, last Cup winners had two players over 60 pts only on their team... Krejci and Lucic with 62 pts...

and the other SC finalist ? well, only 3 players over 50 pts (need 6 players to form a top 6 you know )
It doesn't your top scorers aren't legit 1st liners that you can't win. With a balanced lineup that has a strong defensive presence and solid goaltending, you can very well beat run n' gun squads (or any team that doesn't have good balance). But none of the Bruins was being paid 7.35$ to play like a scrub.

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Sorry, that is incorrect he is still a bona fide top 6 player in 07-08 he was second in team points behind jagr, by 1 point so by your definition Jagr was borderline top 6? the very next season he only got 58 points but it was still good enough for second behind Zherdev, another borderline top 6 guy. in 09 10 he finished with 59 points second only to Pleks, but ahead of Cammy and Gionta, are they also not top 6 material?
You're not looking at the big picture. I said it took him half a season to muster up decent top 6 production. Is that a bonafide top 6 forward? Not really.

And yes, Zherdev is a borderline top 6 forward. I'm going to assume you're joking about the other ones, nobody is stupid enough to think Jagr (96 and 123 point seasons prior), Gionta (consistent 20+ goal scorer) and Cammalleri (2 PPG seasons, 39 goal season prior) aren't legit top 6 forwards.

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07-21-2011, 05:06 PM
  #921
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Wrong, and your 1st sentence shows it... 60 pts for a 2nd line C isnt satisfactory, it's above average...
OK -- A lot of the criticism will go away if Gomez plays like a 60 point center.

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07-21-2011, 05:13 PM
  #922
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You're not looking at the big picture. I said it took him half a season to muster up decent top 6 production. Is that a bonafide top 6 forward? Not really.

And yes, Zherdev is a borderline top 6 forward. I'm going to assume you're joking about the other ones, nobody is stupid enough to think Jagr (96 and 123 point seasons prior), Gionta (consistent 20+ goal scorer) and Cammalleri (2 PPG seasons, 39 goal season prior) aren't legit top 6 forwards.
I dunno, what should be the expectations for a 60 pts player... that he get points every game ? be serious for a second here...

that's how it goes, sometimes they'll have a better 1st haf, sometimes a better 2nd half, and sometimes they'll even get in big slumps in Dec/Jan...


if it wast for those "slumps", all those 55/60 pts players would be 80 pts players...

just look around at all those 55/60 pts players... maybe you'll realise that with the few two or three pts games they have... these players gets points in about 40/45 games a year or so... no more...

Quote:
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OK -- A lot of the criticism will go away if Gomez plays like a 60 point center.
Not really... since, as you said, 60 pts would be satisfactory (only)... and well, the guy kinda have a huge contract...


Last edited by Habsfan18: 07-21-2011 at 05:25 PM. Reason: merged
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07-21-2011, 05:26 PM
  #923
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Not really... since, as you said, 60 pts would be satisfactory (only)... and well, the guy kinda have a huge contract...
IMO, the contract is a criticism of Gainey, not a criticism of Gomez.

BTW, I'm pretty sure 60 points would be top-30 for centers in the NHL. It wouldn't just be above average for a 2nd line C, it would be elite for a 2nd line C.

This is the best case scenario for me:
1) There are sufficiently few injuries that Gomez can reach 55-60 points.
2) Salary cap goes up, so Gomez' contract looks better.
3) We trade Gomez to a team in the next off-season for a slew of young players and draft picks.

Worst case scenario:
1) Someone gets injured, and the great playmaker that is Gomez cannot find chemistry with any of Cole, AK46, or Cammalleri.
2) He makes it to 45 points.
3) Gauthier keeps him next summer.

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07-21-2011, 05:45 PM
  #924
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I dunno, what should be the expectations for a 60 pts player... that he get points every game ? be serious for a second here...

that's how it goes, sometimes they'll have a better 1st haf, sometimes a better 2nd half, and sometimes they'll even get in big slumps in Dec/Jan...


if it wast for those "slumps", all those 55/60 pts players would be 80 pts players...

just look around at all those 55/60 pts players... maybe you'll realise that with the few two or three pts games they have... these players gets points in about 40/45 games a year or so... no more...
Slumps and streaks is all good.

Going on a 30-35 point pace for the first 3 months of the season is a big problem for the team. That's under a point every 2 game. You're not getting much secondary scoring out of your second line and second PP unit for that period.

I wouldn't care too much if he actually played good D. But he doesn't even do that.

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07-21-2011, 05:48 PM
  #925
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You can also factor in that other well-known statistic. For the most part, the production of fowards tends to decline after age 31
It tends to decline, not suddenly fall off a cliff.

And you would expect something else to decline than "shooting percentage by teammates while he is on the ice". All aspects of his game would logically decline, if it were solely age.

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