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Old
04-03-2011, 12:46 PM
  #1
UnderratedBrooks44
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Fairly revealing stat

The Penguins are one of only 3 current playoff teams who don't have at least two defenseman with at least 5 goals. Now obviously goals aren't the only thing that shows what a defenseman can do to help the team's offense, but it's pretty significant here IMO.

In short we cannot discount having Letang AND Goligoski as opposed to just Letang. We gave up a good player in that deal, which is not news but this is a good way of quantifying it. It also is a "hiding in plain sight" reason for the power play blowing goats.

You have to give to get and I still like the deal Shero made. At the same time all of a sudden we have one guy on the back end who can be relied on to maybe put a puck in, and he's missing the net at times. Quite a departure from Letang and Goligoski trading tallies every few games.

Proceeding with caution I'd say Despres is still another year or two away, at least from being this type of contributor. I don't know if it would be out of the question for Shero to eliminate some clutter on the bottom of the D corps and get someone that can shoot a little for next year.

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Old
04-03-2011, 01:05 PM
  #2
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Michalek scored last night...

Martins lack of production and inability to successfully QB a powerplay has me a little o.0

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04-03-2011, 01:08 PM
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I was thinking of that yesterday. As of right now Goligoski helps the team more than Neal.. that's not saying I wouldn't do the trade again. All season we heard about how the Pens have the highest or one of the highest score bluelines in the NHL.... and now Michalek is the only one scoring.

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04-03-2011, 01:08 PM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEALBound View Post
Michalek scored last night...

Martins lack of production and inability to successfully QB a powerplay has me a little o.0
Martin and Michalek are a shutdown pairing. Not offensive guys. Anything we get from them is bonus.

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Old
04-03-2011, 01:27 PM
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UnderratedBrooks44
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Originally Posted by Lunar View Post
Martin and Michalek are a shutdown pairing. Not offensive guys. Anything we get from them is bonus.
I'm not necessarily calling out those guys because as you stated that would be unfair, but it's still $9 million total for not much scoring at all. I like Martin I really do, but how many Dmen do you know that make at least $5 million and score about 3 goals, 25 points? That's part of this problem, however the more direct solution (as opposed to sitting here and complaining about Martin and Michalek) is to rearrange the bottom pair if someone that can play the PP becomes available.

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04-03-2011, 01:30 PM
  #6
JTG
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With a healthy offense, you would see more scoring from all defensemen.

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Old
04-03-2011, 01:33 PM
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UnderratedBrooks44
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
With a healthy offense, you would see more scoring from all defensemen.
Where exactly? We've got one guy that's capable of putting up points consistently. Okay Martin probably gets around 35 points if everyone's healthy. It's still a lot of money on D and not a lot of goal production.

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Old
04-03-2011, 01:40 PM
  #8
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
With a healthy offense, you would see more scoring from all defensemen.
Pretty much.

Look at Letang for an example. He has 8 goals this season and 7 of them were when Sid/Geno were still in the lineup. All of Martins goals were in the first half as well.

Two premier playmaking centers out of your lineup can really hurt defenders offensive production. As a team, the Pens are scoring about 1 whole goal less w/out Sid. I'd be willing to wager that extra goal a game woud add some goals to our defenders...

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Old
04-03-2011, 02:32 PM
  #9
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Its telling how bad our PP is. As long as our transition game if as good as it is I'm not that worried about our defensemen finishing. Neal helps balance this team out a lot more than Goligoski did playing as a 6th guy.

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Old
04-03-2011, 02:43 PM
  #10
Jacob
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If Goligoski was dealt before the season started we'd probably have seen slightly more production out of a few blueliners who would have taken his minutes.

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Old
04-03-2011, 03:00 PM
  #11
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Where exactly? We've got one guy that's capable of putting up points consistently. Okay Martin probably gets around 35 points if everyone's healthy. It's still a lot of money on D and not a lot of goal production.
Both Martin and Michalek have ability to put up better points. They were stuck behind a non-existant 2nd line all season, which Letang and Orpik were playing behind Crosby and Co. You give them a 100 point Geno and they will be near 40. I'm absolutely baffled as to how they both don't put up more numbers because they both are silky smooth players, and Michalek in particular, has a great slapshot. Like, really underrated.

The offense playing in front of the defense will always predicate the types of numbers a defenseman puts up.

There are a handful of people here that get so hung up on the money a player is played v. what the stat sheet says, and I'll never understand or agree with the sentiments.

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Old
04-03-2011, 03:09 PM
  #12
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With what they're paying Martin he should be producing in all areas. I didnt like that signing from the get-go. I always felt it was too much money for a guy who isnt great at any particular area.

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Old
04-03-2011, 03:13 PM
  #13
Gooch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
There are a handful of people here that get so hung up on the money a player is played v. what the stat sheet says, and I'll never understand or agree with the sentiments.
This isnt baseball where players are paid what teams can afford. This is a salary cap system where paying a player too much means you have to sacrifice elsewhere. Giving him #1 dman money when he isnt a #1dman will hurt this team in the future. I am not sure why you don't understand that. If there were no salary cap then I wouldnt care what he is paid.

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Old
04-03-2011, 03:43 PM
  #14
JTG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
With what they're paying Martin he should be producing in all areas. I didnt like that signing from the get-go. I always felt it was too much money for a guy who isnt great at any particular area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
This isnt baseball where players are paid what teams can afford. This is a salary cap system where paying a player too much means you have to sacrifice elsewhere. Giving him #1 dman money when he isnt a #1dman will hurt this team in the future. I am not sure why you don't understand that. If there were no salary cap then I wouldnt care what he is paid.
He is a top pairing defenseman. Just so happens Kris Letang has matured seemingly overnight and has become one of the best defensemen in the league. Calling Martin a middle pairing guy on this team is like calling Malkin a 2nd line center, and Letang is more underpaid than Martin is overpaid. Martin isn't paid like a #1. #1's make 6+ million dollars a year.

Martin isn't particularly great at anything (though I would say that his positioning, stickwork, hockey IQ, quickness, skating, and passing are all very close to great, if not great already). Where he lacks is in offensive production, production being the key word, and he doesn't have a great shot. As I've said before, it's baffling as to how Michalek and Martin haven't put up more points because when watching the both of them, you never believe that they lack anything in that regard. Like I said, the only real knock I have on Martin is his shot. Also have to say that Martin fits what this team wants to do like a glove.

This defense has been the backbone of this team, and because of that, any gains we make offensively are going to be magnified.


Last edited by JTG: 04-03-2011 at 05:18 PM.
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Old
04-03-2011, 03:48 PM
  #15
UnderratedBrooks44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
Both Martin and Michalek have ability to put up better points. They were stuck behind a non-existant 2nd line all season, which Letang and Orpik were playing behind Crosby and Co. You give them a 100 point Geno and they will be near 40. I'm absolutely baffled as to how they both don't put up more numbers because they both are silky smooth players, and Michalek in particular, has a great slapshot. Like, really underrated.

The offense playing in front of the defense will always predicate the types of numbers a defenseman puts up.

There are a handful of people here that get so hung up on the money a player is played v. what the stat sheet says, and I'll never understand or agree with the sentiments.
Michalek's career points to about 25 points as a reasonable expectation. Martin's is about 30. If you want to play the card that the Devils have historically been a defensive team, fine I'd say 35 or maybe even 40 if literally everything goes right. Other than that no I don't see it at all. I do see a reasonable increase from this year just because god willing Crosby and Malkin will play most or all of the year. 40 points is nothing to shake a stick at for a defenseman. Even if Martin would somehow get it I don't see more than 7 or 8 goals (which is still generous). Michalek has a great shot but he's stiff as a board in the offensive zone and doesn't have anything else that's required to be successful in that part of the ice.

I agree with the part about the offense predicating the defensive output, but in terms of this year this is what we have: a team that hardly gets any help at all from the back end. It's not always somebody else's fault. Sometimes your defense is just composed largely of players that simply don't produce a lot and that's the case here. I didn't even want to pick on Martin/Michalek until you went there because I'm advocating a possible tweaking of the 5th, 6th, and 7th Dmen more than anything. All 3 of them are good enough to play, but none of them are irreplaceable in terms of if we would need to add something different.

As Gooch already pointed out, people care about salaries because if someone's not earning theirs it matters across the board. When you consider "inflation" I wouldn't say Martin is overpaid, but he's paid a lot at the end of the day and other than a pretty good outlet pass he's not any help offensively. The whole "you people only care about stats" is a straw man and the idea that he's infallible defensively is a catch all that doesn't hold water realistically.

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Old
04-03-2011, 04:09 PM
  #16
Rakunitz23
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Things we were worried about last year:
Craig Adams goal scoring
Powerplay

Things we weren't worried about:
PK

What happened?
Our powerplay was like 3rd best in the playoffs
Craig Adams scored in the first game
Our PK was horrible

Some of the topics of threads lately have been relateable to the playoffs, but a lot have not. Goals/game, and GA/G are both relateable. Trying to say someone isn't scoring now (martin) doesn't mean he won't be ppg in the playoffs, or do absolutely nothing. There's no way of knowing

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Old
04-03-2011, 04:39 PM
  #17
Ogrezilla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
If Goligoski was dealt before the season started we'd probably have seen slightly more production out of a few blueliners who would have taken his minutes.
I was gonna post this. Doesn't Michalek have 4 goals since Goose was traded? I really think he could be a 10 goal guy as he keeps settling into our system. He's got the best slapshot on our blueline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
This isnt baseball where players are paid what teams can afford. This is a salary cap system where paying a player too much means you have to sacrifice elsewhere. Giving him #1 dman money when he isnt a #1dman will hurt this team in the future. I am not sure why you don't understand that. If there were no salary cap then I wouldnt care what he is paid.
Martin has been great all year. I don't think anyone expected him to come in and be an offensive powerhouse, but he's the best 5v5 defensive player on the team imo.

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Old
04-03-2011, 05:15 PM
  #18
JTG
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Michalek's career points to about 25 points as a reasonable expectation. Martin's is about 30. If you want to play the card that the Devils have historically been a defensive team, fine I'd say 35 or maybe even 40 if literally everything goes right. Other than that no I don't see it at all. I do see a reasonable increase from this year just because god willing Crosby and Malkin will play most or all of the year. 40 points is nothing to shake a stick at for a defenseman. Even if Martin would somehow get it I don't see more than 7 or 8 goals (which is still generous). Michalek has a great shot but he's stiff as a board in the offensive zone and doesn't have anything else that's required to be successful in that part of the ice.

I agree with the part about the offense predicating the defensive output, but in terms of this year this is what we have: a team that hardly gets any help at all from the back end. It's not always somebody else's fault. Sometimes your defense is just composed largely of players that simply don't produce a lot and that's the case here. I didn't even want to pick on Martin/Michalek until you went there because I'm advocating a possible tweaking of the 5th, 6th, and 7th Dmen more than anything. All 3 of them are good enough to play, but none of them are irreplaceable in terms of if we would need to add something different.

As Gooch already pointed out, people care about salaries because if someone's not earning theirs it matters across the board. When you consider "inflation" I wouldn't say Martin is overpaid, but he's paid a lot at the end of the day and other than a pretty good outlet pass he's not any help offensively. The whole "you people only care about stats" is a straw man and the idea that he's infallible defensively is a catch all that doesn't hold water realistically.
It's not just his defense though. He does contribute offensively, it just doesn't show up on the stat sheet. When a puck comes to Martin, it is almost automatically being fired the other way. His breakout pass is great, his ability to rush the puck is very good, and all he really lacks on the offensive side of things is a bomb of a shot and some offensive creativity. He doesn't think the game in a very offensive manner. What he does is very methodical. That's what I mean when I reference people who only look at a stat sheet. Because he doesn't put up big points doesn't mean he isn't offensive.

I have zero doubt that Michalek will increase his point totals here. Zero. He has, IMO, the best breakout pass on the team, and a fantastic shot.

I think all of our defensemen are signed to great contracts. I said this when Martin signed. He will be a whipping boy here because it takes a particular type of fan to appreciate what he brings. He doesn't have a big shot, he won't put up huge points, and he won't run anyone through the boards. Those are the 3 criteria I think most fans base a defenseman on when talking about his worth. Naturally with Martin not excelling in any of those facets of the game, some people are going to think he isn't worth his salary, even if there were numerous teams trying to give him MORE than what we were offering.

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Old
04-03-2011, 05:46 PM
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I love Paul Martin. Good pick-up.

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Old
04-03-2011, 06:01 PM
  #20
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Didnt people here say before the season how much more those two would score now that they were with the pens?

They havent this season, not with or without 71 and 87 and I wouldnt bet that they will score through the roof next season either. Thats not to say they arent good players but I dont see either as the solution on our PP long term. Maybe moving Malkin to the right D is what has to be done for next season unless we pick another D up this summer.

I agree with the op for the most part. Not sure that Despres will be the long term solution on the pp either though. Im not sure we have the player we need for that in the organisation right now. This is what I really dont like with loosing Goligoski.


Last edited by stefanh: 04-03-2011 at 06:08 PM.
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Old
04-03-2011, 07:04 PM
  #21
Gooch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post



Martin has been great all year. I don't think anyone expected him to come in and be an offensive powerhouse, but he's the best 5v5 defensive player on the team imo.
At 5mil a year and thus our highest paid dman, and in many teams cases he would be amongst their highest paid dmen as well he should be the best dman in all situations not just even strength. My problem is they went out and spent #1 dmen money on him and he isnt that, it only compounds the problem when they spent a pretty penny on Michelek as well. To have one at around that price is one thing but to have both hurts this team in the fact that we really don't have a capable load carrying puckmover. Maybe if Letang could hit a broadside of a barn he could be that but the guys earning the big money arent going to be counted on for that and it only helps make the pitiful powerplay even worse.

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Old
04-03-2011, 07:59 PM
  #22
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some are upset we spent 9mil to become one of the best defenses in the league?

I can think of two who disagree with that.... Fleury and our win column with Crosby/Malkin out.

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Old
04-03-2011, 08:09 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
At 5mil a year and thus our highest paid dman, and in many teams cases he would be amongst their highest paid dmen as well he should be the best dman in all situations not just even strength. My problem is they went out and spent #1 dmen money on him and he isnt that, it only compounds the problem when they spent a pretty penny on Michelek as well. To have one at around that price is one thing but to have both hurts this team in the fact that we really don't have a capable load carrying puckmover. Maybe if Letang could hit a broadside of a barn he could be that but the guys earning the big money arent going to be counted on for that and it only helps make the pitiful powerplay even worse.
How does signing Michalek compound any sort of problem? The dude has been nothing but positive for this team and is proving that he's a steal at his salary.

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Old
04-03-2011, 08:24 PM
  #24
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I agree.

We could really use a shot that commands respect on the point. It wouldn't necessarily have to be a d-man, though.

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04-03-2011, 08:27 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
I agree.

We could really use a shot that commands respect on the point. It wouldn't necessarily have to be a d-man, though.
Thats why I'd like to see Geno on one point and Letang on the other for next season. Then Crosby on the half wall, Kunitz net front, Neal roving the middle of the ice.

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