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I propose that a Shootout Specialist is worth more to a team than a Goon

View Poll Results: Which would you rather have?
The best heavyweight in the league to protect your team. (Not a great in game player) 14 11.97%
The best shootout specialist in the league, just in case. (Not a great in game player) 78 66.67%
Neither, don't waste a spot for them. 25 21.37%
Voters: 117. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-03-2011, 07:10 PM
  #26
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Hard to say but I think I take the SO specialist. Greater impact on actually winning and harder for a team to become good at the SO than it is for a team to drop a pair and defend itself as we've seen from last year to this.

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04-03-2011, 07:36 PM
  #27
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In the playoffs a SO specialist is useless since there are no SO in the playoffs. So playoffs I pick goon.

For the regular season I think it depends on the team you are playing. For instance against Broduer I would want to have Avery in the lineup and a "goon" like Boogard to provide a spark and drop the gloves. Even vs a team like Montreal who have crashed the net a lot vs us and have had altercations with Lundqvist. When your playing a team who has a goon like Avery, Tucker, Carcillo etc. you should have a goon to counter that.

Personally I wouldn't want a goon on my team. I rather have a fighter who can play on special teams, be reliable in his own end, and can provide some offense. Like Brandon Prust, Milan Lucic, Eric Lindros. You don't have to be a 30 or even a 20 goal scorer but be able to fight and have some assets to your game.

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04-03-2011, 07:38 PM
  #28
hpNYR
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I don't know how you want to define goons but Gretzky had a pretty damn healthy career thanks in large to Marty MsCorley protecting his ass.

The instigator is a brutal rule.

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Old
04-03-2011, 07:40 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRandazzo View Post
In the playoffs a SO specialist is useless since there are no SO in the playoffs. So playoffs I pick goon.

For the regular season I think it depends on the team you are playing. For instance against Broduer I would want to have Avery in the lineup and a "goon" like Boogard to provide a spark and drop the gloves. Even vs a team like Montreal who have crashed the net a lot vs us and have had altercations with Lundqvist. When your playing a team who has a goon like Avery, Tucker, Carcillo etc. you should have a goon to counter that.

Personally I wouldn't want a goon on my team. I rather have a fighter who can play on special teams, be reliable in his own end, and can provide some offense. Like Brandon Prust, Milan Lucic, Eric Lindros. You don't have to be a 30 or even a 20 goal scorer but be able to fight and have some assets to your game.
goons are irrelevant in the playoffs, 90% of the time they're scratched. The other 10%, well you can ask Blair Betts' jaw about that.

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04-03-2011, 07:44 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hpNYR View Post
I don't know how you want to define goons but Gretzky had a pretty damn healthy career thanks in large to Marty MsCorley protecting his ass.

The instigator is a brutal rule.
Don't forget Dave Semenko. But, that was near 30 years ago, the game is different now.

As for the OP, I'd much rather have a player like Christensen than a player like Boogaard. EC can actually play a regular shift without being a constant liability, and actually be an asset due to his shot and natural talent level. He's fine as a 13th forward.

And Orr Nightmare, how can you possibly even mention the "protecting Lundqvist" falsity? That's what all you goon lovers turn to, yet I can't remember the last time I've seen a goon, particularly a Ranger goon, "protect" Lundqvist. He's still getting run in full force, Boogaard means nothing.

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Old
04-03-2011, 07:53 PM
  #31
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Did you really mention Prust in the same sentence with Lucic and Lindros? Really?




Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRandazzo View Post
In the playoffs a SO specialist is useless since there are no SO in the playoffs. So playoffs I pick goon.

For the regular season I think it depends on the team you are playing. For instance against Broduer I would want to have Avery in the lineup and a "goon" like Boogard to provide a spark and drop the gloves. Even vs a team like Montreal who have crashed the net a lot vs us and have had altercations with Lundqvist. When your playing a team who has a goon like Avery, Tucker, Carcillo etc. you should have a goon to counter that.

Personally I wouldn't want a goon on my team. I rather have a fighter who can play on special teams, be reliable in his own end, and can provide some offense. Like Brandon Prust, Milan Lucic, Eric Lindros. You don't have to be a 30 or even a 20 goal scorer but be able to fight and have some assets to your game.

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Old
04-03-2011, 07:54 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
Christensen contributes nothing...he is noticable once every 10 or so games...if a goon can protect Hank then I would think he would be far more valuable.

I work with a Penguin fan and he said...why would the Rangers bothering have EC on the team...he will only tease u with his skill but in between his ears it is a hollow space.
The thing about a SO guy is that it is far more likely to pot a goal or provide an assist in regulation and OT...EC is 0.43 ppg and W2 is sitting at 0.48 ppg...Not exactly "NOTHING".
Perhaps you would have preferred that we sent Gaborik with his 2 for 19 record in the SO to try to secure that extra point this afternoon? Too bad Drury wasn't in today...he's all of 3 for 15. Or we could try Bogey in that role when he's back, after all with one goal for four shots this season he does have the highest shot % on the team
As long as the SO is part of the game, you have to think about who can do it when it needs to get done. The Rangers are incredibly lucky to have what is probably the best SO lead-offs in the league with EC, Zucc (currently on assignment elsewhere) and W2. Even Torts, who hates the SO, recognizes this...

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Old
04-03-2011, 07:56 PM
  #33
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What would it take to get Clowe here? Christian Thomas, Ethan Werek, 1st round pick?

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04-03-2011, 07:58 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcsauer2738 View Post
What would it take to get Clowe here? Christian Thomas, Ethan Werek, 1st round pick?
Yikes at that price.

I wish Neil wasn't running a 2 mil cap hit, otherwise he'd be a perfect 13th/14th forward who can play (at least better than a Boogaard or an Orr)

The Shelley-AA-Prust like last year demonstrated to me that if you get the right goon, you can shift the line pretty effectively.

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04-03-2011, 07:59 PM
  #35
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Now thats a player we could use..Price would be steep.




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Originally Posted by mcsauer2738 View Post
What would it take to get Clowe here? Christian Thomas, Ethan Werek, 1st round pick?

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04-03-2011, 08:01 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcsauer2738 View Post
What would it take to get Clowe here? Christian Thomas, Ethan Werek, 1st round pick?
That makes no sense for San Jose.

It would take a defenseman to get Clowe, like a McDonagh/Sauer/Girardi. And I wouldn't trade either of those players for Clowe.

Maybe Girardi if we could sign Burns next offseason.

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04-03-2011, 08:02 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
Yikes at that price.

I wish Neil wasn't running a 2 mil cap hit, otherwise he'd be a perfect 13th/14th forward who can play (at least better than a Boogaard or an Orr)

The Shelley-AA-Prust like last year demonstrated to me that if you get the right goon, you can shift the line pretty effectively.
I know it's a steep price but I think that's the type of deal it would take to pry him away from San Jose. I'd love to have the guy, can score 20-25 and fight very well. And of course, he's a "torts kinda guy" haha

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Old
04-03-2011, 08:03 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
I think he can if he's used properly, the problem is pointless goon on goon fights.
Todays coach and goon needs to accept the penalty when a player like Hank gets run, and the retribution isn't boogaard fighting Carcillo, its boogaard grabbing Giroux and pummelling him.

Yes, we get penalized, but eventually teams will not risk their best players getting pummeled in order to 1)run hank, or 2)get a powerplay.

Neither is worth a broken facial bone in your star players
The instigator isn't the only reason you won't see effective deterrence in goons like Boogaard "grabbing and pummelling" stars like Giroux. The second it begins, the linesemen are going to jump in. Yeah, he might get a punch or two in, but so could a Prust, a Hollweg, etc.

Quote:
good for you...

I guess u don't mind seeing guys flying into Hank.

Guys like Sauer who give it there all do not strike fear in opposing players...he might be willing to fight but he is not very good at it...same for Boyle, Dubi, Cally and the like...to be successful you have to be able to protect your assests.

Prust is the only guy on the team who can fight, but we have him fighting guys 4-6 taller than him and 30-50 heavier....that can't last.

figthing doesn't win hockey games...but protecting your star players does...the Rangers have to incorporate more size and grit into their lineup if they truly want to make a run at the cup.

Boogard is on this team for the next 3 years...most of you don't like it but we might as well try to make it work...limit him to the games were it is a must to have him in the lineup and bring in Ryan Clowe...maybe both of our 2nd round picks would entice San Jose, that man is a absolute beast and he would go a very long way into protecting the people on our team that need to be protected.
When Boogaard was healthy, he did not deter opposing players from taking liberties -- nor does any other goon.

If you want to pretend he does, good for you, but with the instigator rule in place and the general climate of the league as it is, goons have a minimal, if any, deterrence on liberties being played.

This isn't the 70s, 80s, or even 90s. The utility of a goon has been marginalized.

Quote:
I've always felt that the best way to deal with a goaltender being run is to run the other team's goaltender.

I cast sincere doubt on the logic behind fear of a goon being linked to a decrease in dangerous play. Now, if we were to eliminate the instigator penalty, things might be a little different. But as of right now, Boogaard is unable to run around policing the ice surface without putting our team dangerously shorthanded.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. It also doesn't need to be the opposing goalie that needs to be run. Matt Cooke runs Lundqvist? Ok, then Dubinsky or Prust goes out the next shift and lays out a late hit on Crosby/Malkin. You don't need a goon to run an opposing player in retaliation. Actually, due to their general lack of speed and agility, a goon is probably less effective at responding in such a scenario.

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Old
04-03-2011, 08:04 PM
  #39
mcsauer2738
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That makes no sense for San Jose.

It would take a defenseman to get Clowe, like a McDonagh/Sauer/Girardi. And I wouldn't trade either of those players for Clowe.

Maybe Girardi if we could sign Burns next offseason.
You bring up a very good point, my proposal was just in terms of value-wise. Realistically, something like Girardi and mid-level prospect or 2nd/3rd round pick would definitely get it done in my opinion

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04-03-2011, 09:05 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRandazzo View Post
In the playoffs a SO specialist is useless since there are no SO in the playoffs. So playoffs I pick goon.
Goons are also useless in the playoffs so that's a push.

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04-03-2011, 09:09 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hpNYR View Post
I don't know how you want to define goons but Gretzky had a pretty damn healthy career thanks in large to Marty MsCorley protecting his ass.

The instigator is a brutal rule.
McSorley could also play the game, twice getting 10 points in the playoffs. He wasn't strictly a goon, so I don't think you are making a valid analogy. A goon that can play is no longer a goon.

Boogaard could play 100 payoff games and not get 10 points. I doubt he could get 5 points.

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04-03-2011, 10:07 PM
  #42
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I chose neither because it depends on your team. If you've got a tough team, you don't need a pugilist. However, if you've got a bunch of youngsters you need a tough guy to keep them safe. It all depends on the composition of your team.

A team like Montreal is desperate for a tough guy right now because they need that infusion of toughness and protection though then have zero need for a shootout specialist.

To the contrary a there were many times in recent seasons when Toronto would just goon it out each year and they'd be best served with adding a PPSpec, well that is if they had a goalie who could stop the puck.

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04-03-2011, 10:13 PM
  #43
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I'd rather develop hard nosed D that can clear the front and learn how to fight (Sauer) then waste a spot on someone who plays a shift every period and maybe get 5 minutes in each game. McIlrath is exactly what this team is missing and is part of the reason they drafted him. If anyone in the up coming years is going to protect Hank, it's him.

If we don't need shootout specialists, I'd love someone who can play 10-11 minutes a game, big, strong in front of the net and fight people when needed. We don't have someone like that, and it would really help. Also, Boyle could potentially fill that role when we get some more depth

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04-03-2011, 10:58 PM
  #44
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I voted neither. Goons barely play if at all in the playoffs and with no shootouts in the postseason SO specialists are useless. A good team shouldn't need to rely on shootout points to make the playoffs.

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04-03-2011, 10:58 PM
  #45
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i like hard players that can play but throw down if necessary.

goons are a sideshow. players like gillies of the piles belong in a circus, not in the nhl. thankfully the league is going that way now.

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04-04-2011, 12:02 AM
  #46
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Lundqvist was still getting runned when Boogard was healthy. Playing Boogey over anyone in our line-up is foolish. This team hasn't been pushed around much this season. We've usually been the aggressor.

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04-04-2011, 04:03 AM
  #47
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Is there a date set for Boogards return?

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Old
04-04-2011, 05:50 AM
  #48
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A one-dimensional goon really doesn't add much to any team. The way the game is right now, a heavyweight doesn't protect you team in any way, shape or form, because nobody has to fight him. In the end the only player on the other team that might be afraid of a guy like Boogard is the other team's goon. Boogard can't protect anybody on the team, and certainly not Hank. In 90% of the cases Hank gets run he wouldn't even be on the ice.

A shootout specialist at least directly increases your point total, and for a fringe playoff team like us right now even a couple of points in the standings are huge. And cry all you want about Christensen's inconsistency (I absolutely agree that it's maddening), he turns up every once in a while and then he scores some very important goals. So even if he really just turns up every 10 games by scoring important goals or shootout winners, that's at least eight points we're talking about, or the difference between being in the thick of the playoff race, being out of it.

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04-04-2011, 07:33 AM
  #49
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There have been goons that could play and there have been goons that could not.
Someone like Brashear was a decent player for a while--not by the time we got him but...just look up his stats on Hockey data base. There was a time he could play. Boogaard has never been much of a player. OTOH Boogaard's being in the lineup raises the comfort level of the team at least a little. Keep in mind that Gaborik probably had at least something to do with Boogaard's becoming a Ranger. There's really no way of calculating how comfort level leads to wins.

The Rangers do have a problem--Lundqvist getting run. Whether running the other side's goalie or not is more than just a partial solution. Prust is willing but a lot of times he's in over his head. Personally I don't want to see him throwing them with someone like Eric Godard or a Steve McIntyre who could put him into the hospital. He survives mismatches because he's very good at what he does but there is a point where someone might be just too big or tough for him.

The better players who can fight like Lucic and Clowe really aren't heavyweights either.

Not sure what the Rangers can do about it. Only so much I'd invest in it. For now we have an injured Boogaard. Even if healthy not a good option going into the playoffs. I will say this the team that won in '94 was really tough and really skilled and the teams that came before them as well. The toughness end had guys like Kocur, Domi, Beukeboom, Kypreos, Graves, Kris King, Wells, Messier. They could be very dirty as well. The Rangers today are moving more in the skill direction. They need more of that but they need to balance it with more toughness.

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04-04-2011, 08:24 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
There have been goons that could play and there have been goons that could not.
Someone like Brashear was a decent player for a while--not by the time we got him but...just look up his stats on Hockey data base. There was a time he could play. Boogaard has never been much of a player. OTOH Boogaard's being in the lineup raises the comfort level of the team at least a little. Keep in mind that Gaborik probably had at least something to do with Boogaard's becoming a Ranger. There's really no way of calculating how comfort level leads to wins.

The Rangers do have a problem--Lundqvist getting run. Whether running the other side's goalie or not is more than just a partial solution. Prust is willing but a lot of times he's in over his head. Personally I don't want to see him throwing them with someone like Eric Godard or a Steve McIntyre who could put him into the hospital. He survives mismatches because he's very good at what he does but there is a point where someone might be just too big or tough for him.

The better players who can fight like Lucic and Clowe really aren't heavyweights either.

Not sure what the Rangers can do about it. Only so much I'd invest in it. For now we have an injured Boogaard. Even if healthy not a good option going into the playoffs. I will say this the team that won in '94 was really tough and really skilled and the teams that came before them as well. The toughness end had guys like Kocur, Domi, Beukeboom, Kypreos, Graves, Kris King, Wells, Messier. They could be very dirty as well. The Rangers today are moving more in the skill direction. They need more of that but they need to balance it with more toughness.
I really don't see how one heavyweight fighting another protects any goalie from being run?

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