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Phoenix Part XXXII: Bridge over Troubled Goldwater

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Old
04-06-2011, 11:50 AM
  #101
rkp
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it amazes me as yet, there still is no local ownership group running to buy this team...unlike atlanta, at least they have tire kickers...in phoenix absolutely no one!!!...ellman who brought the team to phoenix and built the mall next door, one would think he would become involved in the purchase of the team, seeing as his enterprise, the mall would be the one to lose the most according to sources, but yet he still remains distant and out of the scene....so one has to wonder, how much business the mall will really lose if he is the one that has the most vested interest other than COG and MH and yet, he is not interested at all!

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04-06-2011, 11:50 AM
  #102
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Why worry?.
4th best record in NHL since January, hope for next year starting already

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04-06-2011, 11:51 AM
  #103
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Well there would be 3 shunned Billionaires...... Just start signing the top homegrown prospects, unsigned Europeans and NHL FA's as they become available.

Add Canadian tv revenue that would be split 7 or 8 ways rather than 30. Forget the 200 million franchise fee, build your own arena instead. I'd say they would have a great shot at success.
see KHL. They have a few billionaires, no salary cap & no transfer agreement & still can't compete for the NHL. New leagues are a huge risk as well for the networks. Just because it is hockey doesn't mean TSN will pay top dollar for it. In the US, NBC already holds onto the TV rights, & there is little appetite for a rival league to form. This isn't like the late 60s where by there was a demand for rival leagues to form (see NHL-WHL as a precurser to expansion). Plus, you honestly think a perspective owner would be willing to spend their own money to build an arena when they can possibly get the public to shell out? Yes, I know the attitude in Canada is a little different regarding this, but look at Katz in Edmonton.

The NHL has close to 100 years operating experience in North America & is pretty entrenched. It still is the highest level of pro hockey & guys who can make it that far will still choose it over a start up.

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04-06-2011, 11:57 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by edog37 View Post
see KHL. They have a few billionaires, no salary cap & no transfer agreement & still can't compete for the NHL. New leagues are a huge risk as well for the networks. Just because it is hockey doesn't mean TSN will pay top dollar for it. In the US, NBC already holds onto the TV rights, & there is little appetite for a rival league to form. This isn't like the late 60s where by there was a demand for rival leagues to form (see NHL-WHL as a precurser to expansion). Plus, you honestly think a perspective owner would be willing to spend their own money to build an arena when they can possibly get the public to shell out? Yes, I know the attitude in Canada is a little different regarding this, but look at Katz in Edmonton.

The NHL has close to 100 years operating experience in North America & is pretty entrenched. It still is the highest level of pro hockey & guys who can make it that far will still choose it over a start up.

It still is the highest level of pro hockey & guys who can make it that far will still choose it over a start up.
Mainly because the Crosbys, Stamkos's, Nash's etc don't want to move to Russia. Would they stay in Canada, if they could make more than the NHL is paying?

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04-06-2011, 12:05 PM
  #105
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If you substitute "Board of Governors" for "Bettman", I think you might capture the situation more accurately....
That's what I wonder...are all 28 Governors (not including Coyotes and Stars as they are run by creditors) in agreement that the Coyotes absolutely HAVE to be kept in Phoenix even after hemorraging money since the beginning with no light at the end of the tunnel?

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04-06-2011, 12:07 PM
  #106
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4th best record in NHL since January, hope for next year starting already
Yepp. Theres always next year HH. Always tomorrow. And the day after that, and the day after that.

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......and yet, he is not interested at all!
Actually, Ellman didnt bring the team to Phoenix, but he did bring them to Glendale, and there-in lies but one of the many difficulties the franchise has faced since 96. Ellman is first & foremost a developer, interests all over the country. Even pre-economic crash, he was behind on the development of Westgate, knee deep in alligators, being fined by the COG for failing to meet deadlines, on & on. Seemingly he has neither the wherewithal nor the inclination, let alone the aptitude or acumen to re-acquire the team & dig in for the long-haul.

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04-06-2011, 12:22 PM
  #107
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All is quite on the Southwestern front. Sounds like the team is playing out the string. The fans are clamoring for news, but not a whisper for the last couple of weeks. While I have heard MH and the NHL are still working on this transaction, I think perhaps the CoG has decided to not go "all in" with the bonds and eventually let the Coyotes move and focus their attention on football and bowl games.

Unlike Winnipeg, the loss to Westgate will be harder felt, IMO, as the entire development was premised around an arena. It will be 10 years before that area sees any stability, much less further development or growth.

Since I am no friend of the GWI's political and philisophical leanings, I can only hope that when the full damage is felt, that people do not forget they were the single organization standing in the way of keeping the Coyotes. It is easy to talk about a team losing money, but the CoG and the businesses that surround Westgate are better with the Coyotes as a tenant, than whatever they may find to fill dates.

Gonna go to fan appreciation night on the 8th, and as many playoff games as we host (counting my chickens a bit early, but I think the playoffs are a pretty solid chance).

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04-06-2011, 12:32 PM
  #108
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Wasn't that another one of those rulings Judge Baum didn't have to make? He just went with the bid endorsed by the majority of creditors, which included CoG.
No, he made a legal ruling in regards to the bids. The endorsement of creditors had nothing to do with the legal issues on which he ruled.

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04-06-2011, 12:36 PM
  #109
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Gonna go to fan appreciation night on the 8th, and as many playoff games as we host (counting my chickens a bit early, but I think the playoffs are a pretty solid chance).
I think they mathematically clinched a playoff spot about a week ago.

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04-06-2011, 12:37 PM
  #110
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I think they mathematically clinched a playoff spot about a week ago.
Nope, still need at least a point to clinch.

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04-06-2011, 12:45 PM
  #111
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Maybe they are waiting to announce something after the playoffs. If the Coyotes win it all (I think their best option to avoid relocation) their revenue should improve short term and maybe make someone consider paying the full amount?

If they dont find success in this year's playoffs the NHL either needs to lower the price a lot or seriously consider moving this team this offseason. All this is doing is making the league a joke for backing a failing franchise almost religiously. It was admirable the first year but enough is enough.

I really do feel for Yote fans.

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04-06-2011, 12:45 PM
  #112
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All is quite on the Southwestern front. Sounds like the team is playing out the string. The fans are clamoring for news, but not a whisper for the last couple of weeks. While I have heard MH and the NHL are still working on this transaction, I think perhaps the CoG has decided to not go "all in" with the bonds and eventually let the Coyotes move and focus their attention on football and bowl games.

Unlike Winnipeg, the loss to Westgate will be harder felt, IMO, as the entire development was premised around an arena. It will be 10 years before that area sees any stability, much less further development or growth.

Since I am no friend of the GWI's political and philisophical leanings, I can only hope that when the full damage is felt, that people do not forget they were the single organization standing in the way of keeping the Coyotes. It is easy to talk about a team losing money, but the CoG and the businesses that surround Westgate are better with the Coyotes as a tenant, than whatever they may find to fill dates.

Gonna go to fan appreciation night on the 8th, and as many playoff games as we host (counting my chickens a bit early, but I think the playoffs are a pretty solid chance).
Well they should stepup to help themselves rather than look for government handouts to subsidize them. If Ellman doesn't have the cash, perhaps he should sell some of his shares in Westgate. Or is Westgate worthless as well?

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04-06-2011, 01:00 PM
  #113
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Well they should stepup to help themselves rather than look for government handouts to subsidize them. If Ellman doesn't have the cash, perhaps he should sell some of his shares in Westgate. Or is Westgate worthless as well?
I'm pretty sure Westgate and Ellman are underwater. Right now, getting events at the Job are hard given downtown Phoenix has the US Airways arena, and it is a better venue for most concerts given its location. Plus, there is an outdoor arena just down the road for many of the summer concerts. They're going to need to find a tenant and AHL hockey may come to Glendale in a year or two. It will help, but the crowds will likely be significantly less with an even lower pricepoint. Phoenix is a major league city, and minor sports just will not sell very well given other options. The CoG is really going to face some hard times, regardless of whether they do this deal or allow the team to move. A lot of the housing growth was on the westside, and so it is a double whammy for that part of town that has higher foreclosure rates, etc., already in play. Expected recovery for the housing market is thought to be 5 years away, and we could see a double dip starting as lenders put more and more foreclosed properties on the market at the first sign of any increased buying interest.

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04-06-2011, 01:07 PM
  #114
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Ahem, The Bank of Canada is the canadian equivalent of the US Federal Reserve.

There's no chance in hell of seeing the BOC buying a NHL team.

Sooooo, this rumor is complete ********.

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04-06-2011, 01:24 PM
  #115
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Unlike Winnipeg, the loss to Westgate will be harder felt, IMO, as the entire development was premised around an arena. It will be 10 years before that area sees any stability, much less further development or growth.
While that's very unfortunate, the fault lies with whoever came up with the idea in the first place and whichever government types (I'm assuming the CoG) allowed it.

We're talking about a state-of-the-art, brand new facility for a money-losing team that plays a marginally popular sport (for the region) and has struggled with attendance for most of its existence. Not only that, but it's (apparently) out of the way in a location most fans don't care to drive to. How was that a good idea by any stretch of the imagination?

Unfortunately "if you build it, they will come" works in the movies, but not necessarily in real life. It's hard to have sympathy about the likely failure of someone's monumentally stupid idea.

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Since I am no friend of the GWI's political and philisophical leanings, I can only hope that when the full damage is felt, that people do not forget they were the single organization standing in the way of keeping the Coyotes.
Let's say you're a car thief. You're in the process of stealing a car, and some lady across the street notices you and makes a big fuss that attracts the local police, thus thwarting your attempts to steal the car. You get arrested. Whose "fault" was that arrest? Was it the lady's fault for drawing attention to it, or was it your fault for trying to do something illegal?

If you had just gone to a dealership and purchased a car legally, would you be in jail?

Hulsizer and the CoG were doing a deal that appeared to be illegal. Goldwater noticed it and made some noise about it. If that noise results in the deal not going through, is it Goldwater's fault it was unsuccessful, or is it the CoG and Hulsizer's fault for attempting something shady in the first place?

If Hulsizer had offered to purchase the team with his own money, would there have been any problem with the deal whatsoever?

Don't blame Goldwater. If everything is on the up and up, as the CoG and Hulsizer and their supporters seem to think, there'd be no reason for anyone to fear GWI. They could show GWI the appropriate documents, say "here, this is why the deal as-is doesn't violate any laws," and go ahead with their business. If everything is legal, why would there be any fear of getting sued? If the deal is completely legal and they can prove it, the CoG should welcome a suit by the GWI, as the end result would both vindicate the city and make GWI, who are obviously not friends with the CoG, look really amateurish and unprepared.

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It is easy to talk about a team losing money, but the CoG and the businesses that surround Westgate are better with the Coyotes as a tenant, than whatever they may find to fill dates.
How do you know? Is it so unreasonable that they could find something more culturally appropriate to fill those dates, which would draw in a lot higher attendance numbers?

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04-06-2011, 01:25 PM
  #116
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On a more serious note, I'd be interested to see how strong the CAD stays if the NDP can exert significant influence in a coalition government.
Its not a bad question, and it's not because the NDP are socialists. The high value of our dollar is being driven by the export price of oil and other commodities. Since the NDP want to diversify into greener tech and energy, they would enact a slow down or moritorium on oilsands expansion. The petro-dollar would take a hit, as export slow, but given that oil would still have high value, and it's still an oil-based global economy, the US would continue to buy $ hundreds of billions of oil from Canada annually, and so the dollar would probably recover.

way way OT here.

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04-06-2011, 01:41 PM
  #117
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Ahem, The Bank of Canada is the canadian equivalent of the US Federal Reserve.

There's no chance in hell of seeing the BOC buying a NHL team.

Sooooo, this rumor is complete ********.
That wasn't the rumour. It was about the BoC being involved in a very large transfer of money from a Canadian firm to the NHL. And it is certainly possible, given that the chair of the Canadian Payments Association, through which a transaction of this size would likely be processed, is an official of the Bank of Canada.

Two links. First is the BoC page on the CPA. Second is the Large Value Transfer System page on the CPA site:

http://www.bank-banque-canada.ca/en/...ncial_gen.html

http://www.cdnpay.ca/imis15/eng/Clea...er_System.aspx

Doubt it's true. But with everything so quiet in Glendale, it's pretty clear that this is over.

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04-06-2011, 01:54 PM
  #118
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I liked Fidel Astros analogy on the deal being illegal.

If the deal appears illegal as it pertains to Arizona state law then the onus is on the COG to prove it's not to a court. That should have been done months ago as soon as the GWI started talking about it in December.

And there is no proof Westgate will fail if the Coyotes leave. From what has been said on this forum, Westgate isn't doing good anyways. Maybe they should turn Jobing.com into a big water park. That would be awesome. And have tubes come out of the Arena into big pools. (Where the COG is waiting to charge for parking your inflatable tube)

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04-06-2011, 01:59 PM
  #119
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While that's very unfortunate, the fault lies with whoever came up with the idea in the first place and whichever government types (I'm assuming the CoG) allowed it.

We're talking about a state-of-the-art, brand new facility for a money-losing team that plays a marginally popular sport (for the region) and has struggled with attendance for most of its existence. Not only that, but it's (apparently) out of the way in a location most fans don't care to drive to. How was that a good idea by any stretch of the imagination?

Unfortunately "if you build it, they will come" works in the movies, but not necessarily in real life. It's hard to have sympathy about the likely failure of someone's monumentally stupid idea.



Let's say you're a car thief. You're in the process of stealing a car, and some lady across the street notices you and makes a big fuss that attracts the local police, thus thwarting your attempts to steal the car. You get arrested. Whose "fault" was that arrest? Was it the lady's fault for drawing attention to it, or was it your fault for trying to do something illegal?

If you had just gone to a dealership and purchased a car legally, would you be in jail?

Hulsizer and the CoG were doing a deal that appeared to be illegal. Goldwater noticed it and made some noise about it. If that noise results in the deal not going through, is it Goldwater's fault it was unsuccessful, or is it the CoG and Hulsizer's fault for attempting something shady in the first place?

If Hulsizer had offered to purchase the team with his own money, would there have been any problem with the deal whatsoever?

Don't blame Goldwater. If everything is on the up and up, as the CoG and Hulsizer and their supporters seem to think, there'd be no reason for anyone to fear GWI. They could show GWI the appropriate documents, say "here, this is why the deal as-is doesn't violate any laws," and go ahead with their business. If everything is legal, why would there be any fear of getting sued? If the deal is completely legal and they can prove it, the CoG should welcome a suit by the GWI, as the end result would both vindicate the city and make GWI, who are obviously not friends with the CoG, look really amateurish and unprepared.



How do you know? Is it so unreasonable that they could find something more culturally appropriate to fill those dates, which would draw in a lot higher attendance numbers?
There is a lot to your post. First off, no one is asking for you to have sympathy for the CoG. Your sympathy, and a $1 will buy a cup of coffee.

The GWI is the only entity the "believes" or "may think" the transaction is "possibly" illegal. Your analogy is misplaced because you assume the deal is illegal because such an assumption no doubt serves your purpose. I could present an analogy of you being subject to a citizen arrest for something that someone else thinks may be wrong. I suspect you would not appreciate 1) that an unempowered individual attempts to hold you subject to 2) their personal beliefs with a result of 3) no accountability if they are mistaken. I submit that situation is more in kind with how many citizens tend to view the GWI's actions here.

Welcome a suit? You do realize the issue is not whether the CoG welcomes a suit but tens of millions of dollars in unnecessary interest. And, when is it common practice for a duly elected governmental body, that has negotiated a deal for its community in an open forum, to have to go to court to enforce its democratic decision to appease an unelected and marginal "watchdog" group? I hope that is not what my country is coming down to, where special interest groups can dictate the will of elected officials and the majority of citizens they represent.

As to what I know about the uses of the Job? I would say as a Valley resident for nearly 20 years, I know considerably more than you do about the likelihood of economic fallout over the Coyotes leaving. I tried to explain this isn't a development in the CBD with a lot of other economic drivers to bail out an area. The entire development was premised on hockey and an arena. The area is already hard hit by other factors. There isn't anything else to gain traction upon. Will it be a $500 million dollar hit? That I don't know. But its effect will be deep and long lasting. I will be here to see it. I don't you will pay any further attention to the matter so long as the Coyotes relocate.

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04-06-2011, 02:09 PM
  #120
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I'm pretty sure Westgate and Ellman are underwater. Right now, getting events at the Job are hard given downtown Phoenix has the US Airways arena, and it is a better venue for most concerts given its location. Plus, there is an outdoor arena just down the road for many of the summer concerts. They're going to need to find a tenant and AHL hockey may come to Glendale in a year or two. It will help, but the crowds will likely be significantly less with an even lower pricepoint. Phoenix is a major league city, and minor sports just will not sell very well given other options. The CoG is really going to face some hard times, regardless of whether they do this deal or allow the team to move. A lot of the housing growth was on the westside, and so it is a double whammy for that part of town that has higher foreclosure rates, etc., already in play. Expected recovery for the housing market is thought to be 5 years away, and we could see a double dip starting as lenders put more and more foreclosed properties on the market at the first sign of any increased buying interest.
This may not work and the AHL team could bleed money as well. The NHL Coyotes already have ticket prices below many AHL and CHL teams. Jobing.com should be converted to an indoor water park. A feasability study by the COG for the arena in that location would have been a good idea, and not a study done by Hocking.

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04-06-2011, 02:18 PM
  #121
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There is a lot to your post. First off, no one is asking for you to have sympathy for the CoG. Your sympathy, and a $1 will buy a cup of coffee. The GWI is the only entity the "believes" or "may think" the transaction is "possibly" illegal. Your analogy is misplaced because you assume the deal is illegal because such an assumption no doubt serves your purpose. I could present an analogy of you being subject to a citizen arrest for something that someone else thinks may be wrong. I suspect you would not appreciate 1) that an unempowered individual attempts to hold you subject to 2) their personal beliefs with a result of 3) no accountability if they are mistaken. I submit that situation is more in kind with how many citizens tend to view the GWI's actions here.

Welcome a suit? You do realize the issue is not whether the CoG welcomes a suit but tens of millions of dollars in unnecessary interest. And, when is it common practice for a duly elected governmental body, that has negotiated a deal for its community in an open forum, to have to go to court to enforce its democratic decision to appease an unelected and marginal "watchdog" group? I hope that is not what my country is coming down to, where special interest groups can dictate the will of elected officials and the majority of citizens they represent.

As to what I know about the uses of the Job? I would say as a Valley resident for nearly 20 years, I know considerably more than you do about the likelihood of economic fallout over the Coyotes leaving. I tried to explain this isn't a development in the CBD with a lot of other economic drivers to bail out an area. The entire development was premised on hockey and an arena. The area is already hard hit by other factors. There isn't anything else to gain traction upon. Will it be a $500 million dollar hit? That I don't know. But its effect will be deep and long lasting. I will be here to see it. I don't you will pay any further attention to the matter so long as the Coyotes relocate.
$1.00 can get you beer and hotdogs at some Coyotes games.

If Hulsizer buys the team with his own money end of problems. Does the COG subsidize every business in the municipality? Joe's Records is having a tough time making money but has 8 minimum wage workers so the COG leases the parking lot for 30 years to inject capital into the business. This is insane or at the very least corporate welfare for millionaires.


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04-06-2011, 02:20 PM
  #122
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I'm pretty sure Westgate and Ellman are underwater. Right now, getting events at the Job are hard given downtown Phoenix has the US Airways arena, and it is a better venue for most concerts given its location. Plus, there is an outdoor arena just down the road for many of the summer concerts. They're going to need to find a tenant and AHL hockey may come to Glendale in a year or two. It will help, but the crowds will likely be significantly less with an even lower pricepoint. Phoenix is a major league city, and minor sports just will not sell very well given other options. The CoG is really going to face some hard times, regardless of whether they do this deal or allow the team to move. A lot of the housing growth was on the westside, and so it is a double whammy for that part of town that has higher foreclosure rates, etc., already in play. Expected recovery for the housing market is thought to be 5 years away, and we could see a double dip starting as lenders put more and more foreclosed properties on the market at the first sign of any increased buying interest.
Do you think it might be possible that Ellman has done a cost-benefit analysis and determined that the potential future losses of the Coyotes would be greater than the potential loss of business he'll face at Westgate if the Coyotes relocate? I wonder what these actual numbers would look like...

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04-06-2011, 03:14 PM
  #123
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Oil and natural resources, and red-hot growth in India and China are driving the Canadian dollar, more than domestic political machinations.
How about if they reign in the oil sands, raise corporate taxes, and run large budget deficits?

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04-06-2011, 03:15 PM
  #124
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Do you think it might be possible that Ellman has done a cost-benefit analysis and determined that the potential future losses of the Coyotes would be greater than the potential loss of business he'll face at Westgate if the Coyotes relocate? I wonder what these actual numbers would look like...
I don't know. With respect to Ellman, my first question is whether he has resources or even access to resources to be an option here.

I hear one of the investigative reporters for the Arizona Republic is working on a story about the CoG's claims of damage if the team leaves versus the taxpayer cost of selling the bonds. I don't think they have a particular ax to grind so we may have at least one objective voice on the subject. How capable they are to perform such an evaluation, I have no idea.

The GWI keeps claiming the CoG's damage claim is unreliable, but the GWI has also acknowledged that they have not themselves tried to determine what the fallout will be. Their basic response to that question is "it's not our problem."

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04-06-2011, 03:18 PM
  #125
cheswick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blues10 View Post
This may not work and the AHL team could bleed money as well. The NHL Coyotes already have ticket prices below many AHL and CHL teams. Jobing.com should be converted to an indoor water park. A feasability study by the COG for the arena in that location would have been a good idea, and not a study done by Hocking.
I find it very hard to believe an AHL team will "bleed money". The phoenix coyotes average ticket price is about $37. Where is the average ticket price in the AHL or CHL that much? The AHL average 5,500 fans a game. I think with the lower prices for AHL hockey, a team at jobing will be able to average at least 5,500. There have to a solid group of hockey fans in the area that will take what they can get.

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