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ATD 2011 Line-up Assassination Thread

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Old
04-06-2011, 08:23 PM
  #26
MXD
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I always thought of Duane as more of an elite grinder than a defensive guy. I don't have any of those ice time tables since my hard drive crashed, but hockey reference has Duane Sutter with zero career shorthanded goals.
At some point, I think you just have to wonder if the guy will put some heart into what he does (on the PK) and do things like blocking shots. Not being adverse to defensive play helps as well, and Sutter never struck me as being adverse to that.

Granted, Sutter isn't Pulford, or Gainey, or Wesfall, but I can picture him throwing himself in front of shots if he has to (and showing up in the corners as well). His face might also scare some fragile players.

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04-06-2011, 08:24 PM
  #27
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I might be wrong, but I don't think either Cam Neely or Duane Sutter has much in the way of penalty killing credentials.

And the penalty kill is really important to a team as physical as Raptor's with a coach that encourages his players to play tough and dirty.
I estimate Neely and Sutter at 4% of PK time each over their career, basically negligible.

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04-06-2011, 08:24 PM
  #28
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If anybody wants my input...

Egan was Jovanovski before Jovanovski.

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04-06-2011, 08:30 PM
  #29
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At some point, I think you just have to wonder if the guy will put some heart into what he does (on the PK) and do things like blocking shots. Not being adverse to defensive play helps as well, and Sutter never struck me as being adverse to that.

Granted, Sutter isn't Pulford, or Gainey, or Wesfall, but I can picture him throwing himself in front of shots if he has to (and showing up in the corners as well). His face might also scare some fragile players.
Very few slow players make good penalty killers. Bobby Holik could do all those things too, but was not effective on the PK

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04-06-2011, 08:36 PM
  #30
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North Pole Penguinators

Head Coach: Bob Johnson
Assistant Coach: Barry Trotz

Captain: Lester Patrick
Assistants: Dirk Graham, Duke Keats

Cy Denneny - Duke Keats - Phil Watson
Baldy Northcott - Milan Novy - Vladimir Martinec
Joe Klukay - Craig MacTavish - Dirk Graham
Jaroslav Jirik - Tom Lysiak - Corb Denneny

Lester Patrick - Earl Seibert
Frank Patrick - Vasili Pervukhin
Terry Harper - Yuri Liapkin

Johnny Bower
Dave Kerr

PP1: Cy Denneny - Duke Keats - Phil Watson - Lester Patrick - Yuri Liapkin
PP2: Baldy Northcott/Jaroslav Jirik - Milan Novy - Vladimir Martinec - Frank Patrick - Yuri Liapkin

PP Spares: Corb Denneny, Tom Lysiak, Earl Seibert

PK1: Joe Klukay - Dirk Graham - Terry Harper - Earl Seibert
PK2: Baldy Northcott - Craig MacTavish - Lester Patrick - Vasili Pervukhin
PK3: Joe Klukay - Tom Lysiak - Terry Harper - Earl Seibert

PK Spares: Milan Novy, Vladimir Martinec, Phil Watson, Duke Keats, Jaroslav Jirik, Yuri Liapkin

General Spares: Fred Whitcroft, F/D; Weldy Young, D; Bobby Gould, F


Last edited by jarek: 04-08-2011 at 05:36 PM.
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Old
04-06-2011, 08:37 PM
  #31
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If anybody wants my input...

Egan was Jovanovski before Jovanovski.
What are you basing that on?

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04-06-2011, 08:43 PM
  #32
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I disagree.... but I provided some evidence that he was good defensively in his bio.
If you view lack of evidence of defense one way or the other as average, then the only guys below average in their own zone are modern guys we've all seen. And that isn't fair to modern guys.

"With his hard-hitting, rambunctious style, he became an all around solid presence. He was unforgiving with his physical play in his own zone."

"Eganís defensive play was as impressive as his sniping."

"Egan long has been noted principally as a hard hitter and solid blocker..."[/QUOTE]

Only the second quote specifically mentions his defensive play. Reread your profile and I will say that it's pretty good evidence that Egan is better defensively than Hollett. I'm not sure how good that makes him though.

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04-06-2011, 08:43 PM
  #33
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- The first line is... well, sometimes, it just won't work. Names-wise, it's okay (the sum of your guys is 1st line caliber), but you won't have many ways to score goals, and while the Godfather will have two good "Dons" to dig out pucks, chances are, the Dons would be more likely to shoot than anything else. I just can't see this line succeed in any other way than "shoot the puck and jump on rebounds". It might also be one of the slowest first lines.

- The second line is shooter-heavy as well, with the bigger "playmaker" (as in, pass bias) is probably Loob. Not that Maltsev and Robitaille can't pass : it's just that it wasn't exactly their first reflex. Robitaille could be inserted on the 1st line, but you'd lose the two Don aspects... and lose toughness that you already have (but get a much better goalscorer, which you don'T really need... on both lines). All in all, I advise against swapping Hadfield and Robitaille.

- I'd advise swapping Morrow and Hadfield : in the grand scheme of things, Morrow is a better offensive player than Hadfield. But not convinced of Hadfield's relevance as a 3rd liner, so it's pretty much a moot point. Somebody might have a better idea than me. Anyways -- what I said about the first two lines remain : you're 3rd line is shooter heavy. All of your guys can play in the tight, which is a good thing (Pulford is certainly adequate as a playmaker, though I can't tell how adequate he is as a playmaking center -- drafted the guy for LW purposes. Somebody can answer this question better than I).

- Walter, Maruk and Sutter makes for an awesome 4th line. Don't give them too much icetime against top lines : I don't trust Maruk against top lines with wingers who aren't that skilled at puck control (not that they were particularily bad at this, but none of Sutter and Walter were bona-fide 1st line material as far as skill is concerned), which mean they COULD get burned if they end up matched against a really skilled line, but as far as offensively potent bottom lines are concerned, they're good to go.

- Cully Dalhstrom is a terrific checker that should have been a regular. Doesn't bring much aside from checking. For a pure checking line (if you want it), Pulford - Dalhstrom - Sutter or Goldie could certainly manage it (if needed). It's sad that Patrick Kane doesn't have two more seasons under its belt : would have made an awesome job at feeding pucks on the Top-6. He needs to be a sub due to an incomplete resume, but if you ever end up with a defense built a bit like yours (double tough), Kane could be very useful.

All in all, an offense that's somewhat unidimensional that could really get into problems against some teams and that will rely on shooting, grinding and shooting.

- Rags and Cleghorne is a pairing with a bona-fide #1 and a bona-fide #2... in a 28 team draft. Will be hard to play against, and you'll like Cleghorn rushes, especially the way your offense is configured.

- Plager and Beck is tough. Tough. Real tough (not that Plager is ultra-tough, but he won't let up). I need to have a better look at all the teams to know how they measure, but getting in your d-zone won't be easy. Puck controlling (more like rushing) is a possible issue.

- Ashbee is reliable and Turnbull will bring offense AND rushing that you really need. Nice 3rd pairing who's better than the sum of its parts.

- Kronwall is a good sub, perfectly appropriate to take the spot of every guy that could go down (except Cleghorn...) for a short period, and he really isn't far below Ashbee : one might even wonder if he passed Ashbee at this point.

All in all, one of the toughest defensive group, molded after its ace.

- Tiny Thompson is a middle of the pack starter in this draft (... and upper of the pack in the season). Peeters is one of those guys who cannot be described as consistent, but whose career, as a whole, makes him a good backup.

- PP is basically like your offense, but you might get better results at the shoot-grind-shoot thing, due to the puck being mostly in your offensive zone. Less reliance on Cleghorn (not that Cleghorn isn't reliable, but there's only so many minutes he can play) will help you as well. That powerplay will work.

- Cam Neely on the 1st PK wave? There's only so much minutes he can play, and you're having him on 1st-everything. I'd consider giving a shot to Sutter. Not that Sutter is an elite 1st pair PK'er ATD-wise, but I consider him better than Neely in that regards (unless somebody proves me otherwise).

- You might consider give some time to Barry Ashbee on the PK : Cleghorn is good, but I see him as so crucial to your offensive game (especially at 5-on-5) that I wouldn't give him some 70% of PK time.

- As a complete sidenote : if my memory doesn't fail as much as hockey-reference do at this point, Hakan Loob is 4th of all-time for SHG in playoffs (and is 1st all-time amongst non-Edmonton Oilers), and while I haven't calculated this, he's probably 1st of all time in SHG/G as well amongst players with a sizeable amount of games played (the other possible candidate is Derek Sanderson). Granted, that's only 8 goals in 73 games, but it took 200 games for Jari Kurri to reach 10 goals, and the all-time leader in playoffs SHG is Mark Messier, with 14 in 238 games. (the all-time 2nd is #99 with 11 in 208 games). That's pretty useful info that you can certainly use

- All in all, your PK will be elite from 20 feet of Tiny or Pete. Pulford is terrific as well. The reminder is not bad, but in the close, you'll be tough.

- I hate Mike Keenan so I'll restrain from any commentary (at least, I'm honest about it).

- OVERALL : Special teams are crucial, not as much as Mr. Cleghorn. Not a nice team to face, even if they might fall flat on their face here and there or get burned by quicker teams. Even when losing, playing your team won't be fun.
Great job MXD, this was a very enjoyable read. I know my team faces the adversity of matching up with quicker teams. But something that does benefit me is my tough defense, this team was planned to have a solid defensive core where in terms of the oppositions offense, it would be extremely difficult to find a way in. I think even with the first line will still get a lot of offensive chances, that will be converted upon. Seeing as there is two puck-winners on that line, while Esposito is in front of the net, Neely or Hadfield can work the corners. Whichever of the two is not battling for the puck, will be monitoring the zone very carefully looking for a shot on net where they will score, or Espo's large, screening frame can slam in the rebound. The second line is very good offensively, despite not much grit on the line, will be a force offensively. I'd like some more advice and opinions on the PK (from other managers as well), I took Neely off and replaced him with Loob. As you noted Loob was an efficient and capable SH goal scorer, with the PK cornerstone Bob Pulford already on the first unit, we can afford to place the speedster Loob on the penalty kill, to take advantage of the oppositions over-tired power play unit, resulting in potential breakaways and other goal-scoring possibilities. I understand Neely and Cleghorn are getting maybe more than enough time then they can handle.

Dahlstrom is a spare that comes in handy, where the Barons will play him opposed to Dennis Maruk or Ryan Walter in games where they believe his incessant, effective fore-checking will be a huge attribute.

Also, although you may hate Mike Keenan, you'll have to agree with me in saying this is a good team for him. Players like Cleghorn, Neely, Beck, Plager, Ashbee, Dahlstrom, etc.

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04-06-2011, 08:47 PM
  #34
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I think you need to dress dahlstrom. At least he's a competent penalty killer.

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04-06-2011, 08:48 PM
  #35
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I think you need to dress dahlstrom. At least he's a competent penalty killer.
Who should he replace? I like Maruk's offense a lot on that fourth line, maybe Ryan Walter?

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04-06-2011, 08:51 PM
  #36
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I'd like some more advice and opinions on the PK (from other managers as well), I took Neely off and replaced him with Loob. As you noted Loob was an efficient and capable SH goal scorer, with the PK cornerstone Bob Pulford already on the first unit, we can afford to place the speedster Loob on the penalty kill, to take advantage of the oppositions over-tired power play unit, resulting in potential breakaways and other goal-scoring possibilities. I understand Neely and Cleghorn are getting maybe more than enough time then they can handle.
I don't think Loob is an elite PK'er by any stretch, but there's at least some very tangible evidence that played on the PK and good results (at least, offensively in the postseason).

Certainly a guy to have in a need-a-goal situation. Not sure he's #1 pairing material for a long period, but he can AT LEAST play there, and he's one of your quick guys.

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04-06-2011, 08:57 PM
  #37
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I'd say he's more of an elite shorthanded threat, not an elite PKer.

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04-06-2011, 09:01 PM
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I'd say he's more of an elite shorthanded threat, not an elite PKer.
Basically what I had implied in my short summary, with a guy like Pulford on. It's nothing shocking having a guy who possesses the ability that could create chances on the oppositions man advantage.

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04-06-2011, 09:06 PM
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Who should he replace? I like Maruk's offense a lot on that fourth line, maybe Ryan Walter?
Walter is also a competent pker, so not sure if that would help. Do you need maruk for the pp? If not, I would seriously consider scratching him to bolster the pk

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04-06-2011, 09:08 PM
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Walter is also a competent pker, so not sure if that would help. Do you need maruk for the pp? If not, I would seriously consider scratching him to bolster the pk
TDMM in your opinion what should my special teams look like? I don't know who'd be the 2nd PP center without Maruk.

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04-06-2011, 09:16 PM
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I guess you could do pulford-morrow and Walter-loob with espo the 5th option.

I'd rather hve Walter center the pp than use Neely or duane to kill penalties

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04-06-2011, 09:19 PM
  #42
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What are you basing that on?
Strong points description, physicality, and the fact he had so little post-season mentions considering he probably had better tools than most of the guys monopolizing them.

I dunno... sometimes, you picture a player you never saw play. Phil Watson just screams poor-man's Doug Gilmour to me for whatever reason. To me, Egan screams Jovanovski, even it's a somewhat simple way to describe him.

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04-06-2011, 09:21 PM
  #43
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I guess you could do pulford-morrow and Walter-loob with espo the 5th option.

I'd rather hve Walter center the pp than use Neely or duane to kill penalties
Maltsev could be a PK option as well. He killed penalties with Kharlamov in the 1972 series, IIRC. At least in the first couple of games - I think other guys were higher on the depth chart as the series went on.

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04-06-2011, 09:28 PM
  #44
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If somebody wants to have some fun with the Montreal AAA HC

Head Coach : Vladimir Yurzinov
Ass / Goalie coach : Warren Strelow


Aurel Joliat - Stan Mikita - Didier Pitre
Jiri Holik - Marty Walsh - Reggie Leach
Marty Pavelich -Ralph Backstrom - Blair Russel
Georges Mantha - Andy Blair - Joe Lamb
Josef Malecek - Tony Amonte

Mark Howe - Ken Reardon
Lionel Hitchman - Dickie Boon
Allan Cameron - Clem Loughlin
Udo Kiessling

(Georges Mantha is the unofficial 8th D-Men)

Ron Hextall
Chico Resch


Joliat - Mikita - Leach - Howe - Loughlin
Holik - Walsh - Pitre - Reardon - Boon

(with Amonte in the lineup, Pitre is moved to the 1st unit, on D. Amonte is on the 2nd line)

Pavelich - Backstrom - Hitchman - Cameron
Mantha - Russell - Boon - Reardon
Pitre - Mikita - Hitchman - Howe/Cameron
Joliat - Blair/Lamb/Backstrom (depends on opponent, and who's in the sin bin) - Boon - Reardon/Howe (see, the C's)
- the 2nd guy is the C/main faceoff player -

(Udo Kiessling gets PK time if he plays (think Allen Cameron's spot)), and gets PP time if Amonte isn't in the lineup, Reardon isn't in the sin bin, and Boon needs a rest. Which mean -- he probably doesn't get any)

NEED A GOAL?

Joliat - Mikita - Pitre - Howe

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04-06-2011, 09:37 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Strong points description, physicality, and the fact he had so little post-season mentions considering he probably had better tools than most of the guys monopolizing them.

To me, Egan screams Jovanovski, even it's a somewhat simple way to describe him.
I'll be the first guy to admit Egan was not a defensive stalwart, but I'm just trying to kill the myth that he was terrible. He is below average in the ATD, that's for sure, but I don't think he's one of the worst.

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04-06-2011, 09:44 PM
  #46
TheDevilMadeMe
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I'll be the first guy to admit Egan was not a defensive stalwart, but I'm just trying to kill the myth that he was terrible. He is below average in the ATD, that's for sure, but I don't think he's one of the worst.
He's certainly a lot better than jovo offensively

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04-06-2011, 09:44 PM
  #47
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I'll be the first guy to admit Egan was not a defensive stalwart, but I'm just trying to kill the myth that he was terrible. He is below average in the ATD, that's for sure, but I don't think he's one of the worst.
... That's a bit Jovo as well.

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04-06-2011, 09:52 PM
  #48
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He's certainly a lot better than jovo offensively
I think you're underrating Jovo offensively...

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04-06-2011, 10:01 PM
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I think you're underrating Jovo offensively...
agree, I think it would be a pretty close comparison.

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04-06-2011, 10:30 PM
  #50
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This is my current lineup. I will be out of town for a few days so I'll have to catch up on this stuff when I get back:




Guelph Platers

GM: BraveCanadian
Coach: Al Arbour
Captain: Dave Poulin
Alternates: Clark Gillies, Bryan Trottier
Player Development Consultant: Gary Roberts

Clark Gillies - Bryan Trottier - Rick Middleton
John Ogrodnick - Rick MacLeish - Rene Robert
Mike McPhee - Dave Poulin - Yuri Lebedev
Martin Gelinas - Jason Arnott - Rick Vaive

Mike Ramsey - Guy Lapointe
Steve Smith - Eric Desjardins
Jamie Macoun - Reijo Ruotsalainen

Walter "Turk" Broda
Felix "the Cat" Potvin

Reserves
Craig Simpson - Sylvain Lefebvre - Dmitri Khristich

Powerplay:
PP1: Clark Gillies - Bryan Trottier - Rick Vaive - Guy Lapointe - Eric Desjardins
PP2: John Ogrodnick - Rick MacLeish - Rick Middleton - Steve Smith - Reijo Ruotsalainen

Penalty Kill:
PK1: Dave Poulin - Rick Middleton - Mike Ramsey - Guy Lapointe
PK2: Bryan Trottier - Rick MacLeish - Steve Smith - Eric Desjardins

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