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ATD 2011 Line-up Assassination Thread

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Old
04-20-2011, 11:40 AM
  #901
jarek
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I own the Summit Series, just haven't gotten around to watching it.

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04-20-2011, 11:55 AM
  #902
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Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
I own the Summit Series, just haven't gotten around to watching it.
The Summit series games were really my first experience of the old games (in the early 2000s), and once I got over the slowish pace and the somewhat awful skating (I mean, much-maligned Petrov really wasn't very bad compared to many others in 1972) etc., it was a great to watch the games. Games 3 and 8 are the best ones IMO; the 2nd period of g8 is one of the better periods of hockey ever, as far as I'm concerned. The 1987 CC finals are of course on a different level altogether.

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04-20-2011, 11:59 AM
  #903
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My team is finalized.

Winnipeg Falcons


Manager: jkrx



Head Coach: Scotty Bowman
Assistant Coach:
Captain: Yzerman
Assistant Captains: Stevens, Brind'Amour

ROSTER
Brendan Shanahan - Steve Yzerman - Marian Hossa
Brian Bellows - Rod Brind'Amour - Bob Nystrom
P.J. Axelsson - Brent Sutter - Terry O'Reilly
Kirk Maltby - Pete Stemkowski - Claude Larose
Spares: Bob Probert, Johan Franzen, Russ Courtnall

Stevens - Carl Brewer
Brad McCrimmon - Rob Ramage
Calle Johansson - Aaron Ward
Spares: Anders Eldebrink

Mike Vernon
"Pekka" Lindmark

PP1: Shanahan - Yzerman - Nystrom, Hossa - Brewer

PP2: Bellows - Brind'Amour - O'Reilly, Stevens - Calle Johansson

PK1: Yzerman - Hossa, Stevens - Brewer

PK2: Brind'Amour - Sutter, McCrimmon - Ramage
Coach -*

You won't get any better than Bowman (IMO Toe Blake is his equal). *And you have a very good Bowman team with no one-way offensive flakes.

Forwards-

First line is a team strength. *You know you're getting the two-way "winner" version of Yzerman with Scotty as coach. * Shanahan I'd a solid LW power forward who obviously has chemistry with Steve. *Hossa is a solid but unspectacular two-way winger for a first line. *This line will really be able to give some offense-only first lines major trouble in head to head matchups.

Your lower lines aren't nearly so good. *I think lack of secondary scoring is a weakness.

Brind'amour is a solid center for a hybrid checking/scoring line. *Nystrom is a good defensive player, but I'd prefer someone with a better scoring record to provide more secondary scoring. *Bellows is a bargain basement scorer - I'd prefer someone better if you want a scorer, since his linemates are already more defensive than offensive.

Brent Sutter is a very good two-way third line center in a draft this size. *I don't like his linemates as much. *O'Reilly is a beast, an asset to every team. *I'd prefer him on a 4th line, but I suppose he has a place on a third line in a draft this size, especially since you don't need to line match with all the two-way ability in your top two lines. Axelsson is a great defensive player, but hurts the line's offensive ability.

Prototypical 4th line, though I really question whether Maltby is skilled enough to really contribute at this level. *I really have no idea why you draft defensive specialists like Axelsson and Maltby and not have them kill penalties. *I would have to think Franzen would be more useful at even strength than Maltby.

Spares are pretty good. *Franzen is worth drafting for his clutch scoring and grit. *Courtnall is a decent two way speedster, if you want a designated pugilist, Probert is the cream of the crop.

Defense: *

Brewer is a great two-way partner for Stevens' beastliness. *This pair will make it hell for opposing forwards. *Great shut down pair with adequate puck moving

Mccrimmon is another great shut down defensemen - he's at his best when complimenting a more talented partner - being the better defenseman on his pair will be an adjustment, but I don't see why these guys won't be fairly effective. *

Johansson is a very solid and well rounded #5. *I don't think Ward is worthy of being drafted at this level. *Hopefully your profile of Eldebrink shoes that he's worthy of playing here, because Ward is a weakness on an otherwise good group of defensemen.

Goaltending;

I'm not a fan of Vernon as a starter. *He has some really good highs, but they weren't all that common. *Pekka had never been drafted this high before, but he probably is a worthy backup actually*

Special teams:

I have no idea what Nystrom is doing on an ATD powerplay unit, let alone the first one. *Other than that, the unit is fine, but emphasis on defensive defensemen does leave you without a too notch PP QB. *

Second unit seems quite weak in all positions, though Brind'amour does have good hands around the net. *In the playoffs, I would replace O'Reilly with Franzen. *

PK is very strong. *I think Scott Stevens and Chris Chelios are probably the best PKers of the modern era. *HM to Serge Savard. *Bobby Orr is obviously up there, as well, though he kills penalties in a unique way.*

The rest of your unit is strong, but again - why bother dressing Axelsson and Maltby if they aren't killing penalties? *You could easily have 3 strong pairs of PKing forwards if you split up the centers Sutter and Brind'amour.

Overall:*

One of the best led teams in the draft between the coaching and men with letters. *Strong two-way first line, great first shut down pair, and defensive ability from all your lines are strengths. *Secondary scoring and goaltending are the big weaknesses.

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Old
04-20-2011, 12:03 PM
  #904
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Thanks to Leafs Forever and Seventieslord for reviewing my team. I used advice from both of you to update my roster.

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Old
04-20-2011, 12:09 PM
  #905
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Ward is playing over Eldebrink? We're talking about a career #5/6 D-man, and a guy who was a Golden stick winner (or was it just finalist?) - either way, that should change.

Nystrom on the first PP is definitely puzzling.

Yes, I'd agree Lindmark deserves a backup role. He and Kralik were the class of the AAA.

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Old
04-20-2011, 12:14 PM
  #906
TheDevilMadeMe
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Ward was a top 4 guy for Carolina in 2006, right? Either way, that was the highlight of his career and he was normally a depth defenseman.

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04-20-2011, 02:08 PM
  #907
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Wait wait wait wait, Aaron Ward got drafted in this?!?!?!?!

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Old
04-20-2011, 02:26 PM
  #908
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Wait wait wait wait, Aaron Ward got drafted in this?!?!?!?!
Same round as Luke Richardson.

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Old
04-20-2011, 02:32 PM
  #909
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...and I'd take Richardson 10 times out of 10, personally.

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Old
04-20-2011, 02:34 PM
  #910
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At least they went in the 800s, unlike a certain Free Willy.

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Old
04-20-2011, 02:39 PM
  #911
seventieslord
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I'd take Mitchell 10 times out of 10 over Richardson or Ward.

however, with draft positions considered, it's tough to say who is the better value between Willie and Luke.

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04-20-2011, 02:48 PM
  #912
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I don't know why VI's dominant personality dropped Mitchell. He was a megareach when selected,, but worthy of being a spare or perhaps even a #6 in a draft this big.

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Old
04-20-2011, 03:04 PM
  #913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I'd take Mitchell 10 times out of 10 over Richardson or Ward.

however, with draft positions considered, it's tough to say who is the better value between Willie and Luke.
Ward, probably. Richardson, no.

Why do all Canucks' players get so obscenely overrated?

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Old
04-20-2011, 03:08 PM
  #914
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Ward, probably. Richardson, no.

Why do all Canucks' players get so obscenely overrated?
I tend to agree with you about Canucks players in general, but I seem to remember Mitchell getting some odd votes for "best defensive defenseman" in the league a couple of years ago and not just from Canucks fans.

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Old
04-20-2011, 04:05 PM
  #915
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Ever heard of the Kapustin-Shepelev-Shalimov line that was arguably their best forward line in the 1981 Canada Cup and 1982 WC? Okay, Shalimov and Kapustin were in their late 20s by that time, and the line didn't last more than a couple of seasons. But only in the 1983 WC did KLM (+ F and K) really start to carry the team, so to speak.
Vladimir Golikov was a pretty hot player in the late Seventies and early 1980s.

Andrei Khomutov and Vyacheslav Bykov are really underrated around here IMO; they weren't maybe forces in the early Eighties yet, but the Khomutov-Bykov-Kamensky line did rival KLM later on; for example, they scored 6 goals in the 1987 Canada Cup finals (despite the great play of both Makarov and Krutov, KLM scored 'only' 4 goals) and were without a shadow of a doubt the best USSR forward line in the 1989 WC.

You have a point, though, in that on paper the 1970s USSR looks stronger than the 1980s version, but when you actually look at the results, the 1980s Soviets were definitely more succesful and a lot harder to beat. In the 1980s, I think they only lost 2 world championship games (both in 1985), whereas the 1970s team(s) lost numerous and numerous games, mostly to Chechoslovakia, but also to Sweden in 1970, 1976 and twice in 1977 and - lo and behold - to Poland in 1976 (clearly a total fluke, but still). Watching games from the 1970s and 1980s, to me the 1980s teams generally look better, faster and more difficult to beat. How much of this can be credited to Tikhonov (obviously a much better coach than Kulagin and Bobrov) and his improved training methods/discipline etc. and how much to the actual players themselves, is debatable, of course. Maybe the lack of opponent as good as the 1970s Czechoslovakia (in Europe) also made it easier for them, I DON'T KNOW.

And about 1980 Lake Placid, well, that team still had Mikhailov, Petrov, Kharlamov, Maltsev, Lebedev... I don't think the '1980s players' should get all the blame for the loss. Anyway, it was their last significant loss until the semi-final of the 1984 Canada Cup.
From what I saw in the 1987 CC final the Green Unit was awesome, consistently controlling the play against Canada. IMO they looked as strong as Canada's top unit - the two were not usually matched up but each controlled the play when on the ice. The Canadians were more individually skilled, but the Green Unit's teamwork, spacing, movement, and passing was the best I've ever seen. That includes Fetisov and Kasatonov, not just KLM.

Kamensky-Bykov-Khomutov scored more than their share of goals. But by my eye they weren't as good at controlling the puck and consistently generating chances, in part because Canadians were stronger 1 on 1 and could win most puck battles. They did generate some chances off the rush and finished very well on the chances they did get. But I thought KLM would have outscored them in a larger sample of games. I guess you could say that KLM had the advantage of playing with Fetisov and Kasatonov, who were very good at joining the attack.

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Old
04-20-2011, 04:35 PM
  #916
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Ward, probably. Richardson, no.

Why do all Canucks' players get so obscenely overrated?
I was already pretty high on Mitchell (as a here-and-now player, not as a guy with a great all-time resume) een back when he was with the Wild.

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Old
04-21-2011, 01:28 AM
  #917
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
From what I saw in the 1987 CC final the Green Unit was awesome, consistently controlling the play against Canada. IMO they looked as strong as Canada's top unit - the two were not usually matched up but each controlled the play when on the ice. The Canadians were more individually skilled, but the Green Unit's teamwork, spacing, movement, and passing was the best I've ever seen. That includes Fetisov and Kasatonov, not just KLM.

Kamensky-Bykov-Khomutov scored more than their share of goals. But by my eye they weren't as good at controlling the puck and consistently generating chances, in part because Canadians were stronger 1 on 1 and could win most puck battles. They did generate some chances off the rush and finished very well on the chances they did get. But I thought KLM would have outscored them in a larger sample of games. I guess you could say that KLM had the advantage of playing with Fetisov and Kasatonov, who were very good at joining the attack.
Oh, Krutov and Makarov - along with Gretzky and Lemieux on the other side - were the masters on the ice in 1987, no question. Fetisov and Kasatonov too. Outside the 1st final, I was not very impressed with Larionov, though. He played his part, I guess, but nothing more. IMO Bykov outperformed (outcentered?) him in that one. The color commentator (Ron Reusch) keeps mentioning that Larionov is injured but is not quite sure what's wrong with him.

Yep, it was mostly Messier's line (with Anderson and Hawerchuck?) that was line-matched against KLM.

In the Rendez-Vous, Bykov's line definitely outshone Larionov's. Kamensky is at his best, but his linemates aren't that far off. In the 1989 World Championships, they were a lot more efficient than KLM, but of course by that time, Larionov and Fetisov (especially) had had the fall-out with Tikhonov (and Kasatonov), so they probably didn't give a damn anyway.

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04-21-2011, 02:05 AM
  #918
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Hello, Mr. Controversy.

I think Bykov as a center is certainly not much worse than, say, Shadrin and - don't kill me EagleBelfour - the same thing with Khomutov vis--vis Vikulov. I know that I can't really back that up by quotes and stats and whatnot, but I believe my eyes on that one. Watch the 1987 Canada Cup finals and 1987 Rendez-Vous - and lay your eyes off KLM for once - and you know what I'm talking about. I'm especially fond of Bykov, the little center. There are those who think that he was actually a better center than Larionov in the late Eighties; it is very hypothetical, alright, but not something I would dismiss totally.

By the way, in the future - as a sort of homework - IMO every ATD'er should get themselves aquainted with the 1972 Summit series and 1987 Canada Cup finals (AT LEAST those two); both series have been released on DVD and are pretty easy to find and are not overly expensive. I mean, that's pretty essential viewing material for hockey historians. Just a suggestion...
Don't worry, I won't kill you ... this time

I actually I agree with most of your points above. Andrei Khomutov and Viacheslav Bykov are two extremely underrated players around here. In a all-time list, perhaps only 200 or so spots separate those two from the Vladimir Vikulov and Viacheslav Shadrin, but as 70's pointed out, those roughly 200 spots is the difference between an average to low-end 2nd line offensive forward to an offensive role on the 4th line or a spare. Those guys are clearly offensive juggernaut that wouldn't mesh well on a energy/defensive line.

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04-21-2011, 02:30 AM
  #919
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Don't worry, I won't kill you ... this time

I actually I agree with most of your points above. Andrei Khomutov and Viacheslav Bykov are two extremely underrated players around here. In a all-time list, perhaps only 200 or so spots separate those two from the Vladimir Vikulov and Viacheslav Shadrin, but as 70's pointed out, those roughly 200 spots is the difference between an average to low-end 2nd line offensive forward to an offensive role on the 4th line or a spare. Those guys are clearly offensive juggernaut that wouldn't mesh well on a energy/defensive line.
Killing is fun!

Hmmm, I might argue that Bykov at least was a very capable defensive forward. He had the skating skills and terrific speed - and I think he was defensively responsible (even good?).

Oh, it has become obvious that I don't always get all the so called quirks and subtleties of the ATD Draft, and thus react like a... spoiled child sometimes - my apologies! For example, I don't quite understand why Balderis is a top line player and his linemate from the late 1970s Kapustin barely (?) gets drafted.

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04-21-2011, 02:35 AM
  #920
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Killing is fun!

Hmmm, I might argue that Bykov at least was a very capable defensive forward. He had the skating skills and terrific speed - and I think he was defensively responsible (even good?).

Oh, it has become obvious that I don't always get all the so called quirks and subtleties of the ATD Draft, and thus react like a... spoiled child sometimes - my apologies! For example, I don't quite understand why Balderis is a top line player and his linemate from the late 1970s Kapustin barely (?) gets drafted.
Sergei Kapustin is an extremely underrated hockey player. In a nutshell I would say that Balderis is by a good margin the best offensive player of the two. Balderis is one of the worst first line RW in this draft though. I do own Kapustin, but I'm using it as a spare and I'm missing time to do a biography on him. Perhaps I would come around and do a biography on him in the summer, after the draft, just for the hell for it. There's no doubt in my mind he is a better player than my own 4th line LW in Eddie Shack, and that he would be an elite 4th liner on pretty much any team.

I think the majority of us are still in the process in learning on those European players of the 1980's and before. We are probably as a community as right and wrong as you are on those players. Your input and knowledge is valuable and always appreciate around here. Perhaps some GM will remember that little conversation on Kapustin, will read on him next draft and draft him much higher in a respectable position.

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Old
04-21-2011, 02:46 AM
  #921
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
In a nutshell I would say that Balderis is by a good margin the best offensive player of the two.
Sure, I didn't quite mean that Kapustin was as good; Balderis was undoubtedly THE offensive star of the Kapustin-Zhluktov-Balderis line (CSKA/ntl team, late 1970s) and had clearly the better Soviet league career. Overall, Kapustin had a longer and better career on the national team, though, but there are reasons for that, of course (Tikhonov - Balderis).

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