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No Time To Lose For Dustin Penner To Figure Things Out With LA Kings

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04-05-2011, 09:53 PM
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FrozenRoyalty
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No Time To Lose For Dustin Penner To Figure Things Out With LA Kings

No Time To Lose For Dustin Penner To Figure Things Out With LA Kings

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04-05-2011, 10:04 PM
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He's been a huge bust so far. Things could get better but he has just packed it in like we all knew he would. Give us something.

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04-05-2011, 10:05 PM
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Reading this article just re-enforces my belief that Murray makes the system too complicated and increases the hesitancy that we see with all of the forwards and defense in the offensive zone. Too many players hesitate when shooting and get their shots blocked. Maybe they are thinking too much on the ice.

The Kings, under Murray, have looked out of sync in the offensive zone. They seem to pass to open spaces with no other King in sight.

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04-05-2011, 10:08 PM
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He's been a huge bust so far. Things could get better but he has just packed it in like we all knew he would. Give us something.
He's been the best LW on the Kings since he was acquired. Do I wish he had more goals and points? Of course, but it's not like the Kings were a force on offense before he was here.

Murray is running out of excuses for why so many players struggle to produce with his system. Moller will probably score 20+ goals as soon as he plays for another team/coach.

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04-05-2011, 10:22 PM
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He's been the best LW on the Kings since he was acquired. Do I wish he had more goals and points? Of course, but it's not like the Kings were a force on offense before he was here.

Murray is running out of excuses for why so many players struggle to produce with his system. Moller will probably score 20+ goals as soon as he plays for another team/coach.
I'll bite. What has he done? Bob and Jim call him out for not trying all the time. Aside from the first 4 games he has been terrible. I can deal with poor play, but not giving effort AND playing out of system is unacceptable. Everyone warned us he does this for months at a time and it's true.

I really want to root for him because there just isn't many good players to attch to but he's making it rediculously hard.

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04-05-2011, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
He's been the best LW on the Kings since he was acquired. Do I wish he had more goals and points? Of course, but it's not like the Kings were a force on offense before he was here.

Murray is running out of excuses for why so many players struggle to produce with his system. Moller will probably score 20+ goals as soon as he plays for another team/coach.
That's not saying a whole lot. I actually think Clifford may be our best LW right now. At least he brings great energy to every game.

It may not be a bad idea to move Richie back on the LW and perhaps slide Moller over to Center. Not panicking here but it's worth a look imo.

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04-05-2011, 11:15 PM
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That's not saying a whole lot. I actually think Clifford may be our best LW right now. At least he brings great energy to every game.

It may not be a bad idea to move Richie back on the LW and perhaps slide Moller over to Center. Not panicking here but it's worth a look imo.
Bingo...Clifford has been the best LW although the bar is very low.

Penner would be on the 4th line by now if there were any other options for TM to make.

And blaming TM is getting pretty silly...Penner's lack of productivity is because of Penner. He needs a serious gut check in the next 24 hours...

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04-06-2011, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Reading this article just re-enforces my belief that Murray makes the system too complicated and increases the hesitancy that we see with all of the forwards and defense in the offensive zone. Too many players hesitate when shooting and get their shots blocked. Maybe they are thinking too much on the ice.

The Kings, under Murray, have looked out of sync in the offensive zone. They seem to pass to open spaces with no other King in sight.
totally agree with you. and for reference....“I wish [his progress in learning the system] was further along,” said Murray. “I see some hesitancy in this game, and in reading the play without the puck. As an example, on the opening face-off last night [a 6-1 loss at San Jose on April 4], when we lost the face-off, our F1 [forward] on the neutral zone forecheck is our right winger, and [Penner, on left wing] jumps [instead].”

if Penner is the closest to the puck then he goes in as the F1. he can put pressure on the puck faster than waiting for the RW to skate onto the puck. the other two fwd's then rotate off of him and as play evolves they cover each other and return to their regular position.

that 'hesitancy' can be attributed to not knowing where guys are going to be. it also can be that Penner is thinking ahead of guys and where they should be. personally i think it's a combo, but more so to not knowing where guys are going to be. the guy is a scorer and played on a team that played O first. he's looking for the clear shot or open man in the slot or backside. when he doesn't see what he is used to he freezes. how many times have we seem him run down the wing into the corner and now is taking some weak attempt out of the corner? much to often and it's a result of him not being on the same page as his linemates. Kopi was the only guy that seemed to be working with him, because they were playing down the sideboards together and either cycling or give-n-go's.

this is totally assinine. you coach a system BUT allow for flexibility due to position and situation. a system and philiosophy provides a foundation for the team to structure it's game on. it SHOULDN'T ever dictate the flow of a game.

this statement by Murray speaks volumes on why LA has problems when it comes to breakouts, transitions and ultimately scoring. they have to WAIT for someone to be in the right space at the right time. i'm sorry but hockey doesn't work that way. the game is built on speed and how quick a player and team reacts. what happens on the ice changes in the blink of an eye and guys don't skate/move that fast. players need to be able to read a situation/play and react accordingly, not wait for someone else to react to what just happened and cover the area or player.

furthermore when you play a set, structured and unbending system a smartER team and coach will use that against you.

it's time for TM to move along. he has accomplished what he was brought in for. to teach a young team and provide a sound system for them to build on. he has done that admirably and built them into a good young team that is going places. now they need a coach that can take Murray's system and blend it with their own and move the team the next 1, 2, 3, how many steps they need to take.

who takes the realm? i don't know but it doesn't have to be the usually list of candidates. personally i hate re-treads. this is why they've been fired/hired more times than they should. go find someone new like Yzerman did in Boucher


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04-06-2011, 09:20 AM
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Penner's struggling to produce offense like a 1st line forward and is being called out for not playing hard game in and game out? Wow, who would have guessed that?

There's a reason I said all along I didn't want this guy and seems like he's showing it. He didn't have a lot of offensive support in Edmonton either (Hemsky missed 30 games this year as well) and yet he produced better there. I hope he pans out the way you guys were hoping when we got him, but I viewed it as a colossal waste of three good assets at the time and he's done noting to disprove me thus far. One assist in his last 10 games? Come on.

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04-06-2011, 09:50 AM
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Murray...
I'm not going to blame all of Penner's performance on Murray, but seriously, we need a new coach this summer. Someone else mentioned he was great at getting our defensive game top notch. I agree with this 100%, no I agree 200%. But it takes more than just good D to win the cup. He's done his job very well instilling D into a young team, but he's got to go. It has to be this summer. Otherwise it's going to be the same "ok/decent team with flashes of brilliance" next year even with Kopi back. "Ok/decent team with flashes of brilliance" do not win cups.

****Also I do NOT want Schenn and Lokti breaking into the NHL under the Murray system. That'd be a colossal waste.

Penner...
1. I think he's a guy that always is going to "look" lazy. No matter what. Not a fast skater+big. Not comparing his talent to Lemiux...let me say again...NOT comparing his talent to Lemiux's. But as a kid I remember going "What's so great about this guy he's so slow". Then after watching you see why he was so great. Penner's like that, but obviously on a much lower level than Lemiux.

2. I thought he was fine and EXACTLY as I expected him to be before Kopi and Williams got busted up. Sure, he should be able to play with everyone but his current linemates just don't seem to match well for him.

3. I think he's just going through a lull. He's an incredibly smart hockey player and he will come out of his shell in time and help us in the playoffs. Then next year, he'll probably be even more helpful.

Hopefully under a different coach.

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04-06-2011, 10:39 AM
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I'll bite. What has he done? Bob and Jim call him out for not trying all the time. Aside from the first 4 games he has been terrible. I can deal with poor play, but not giving effort AND playing out of system is unacceptable. Everyone warned us he does this for months at a time and it's true.

I really want to root for him because there just isn't many good players to attch to but he's making it rediculously hard.
LW players since Penner was acquired (16 games):

Smyth 1 goal, 6 points and a -9
Poni 1 goals, 6 points and a +1
Penner 2 goals, 6 points and a +2
Clifford 2 goals, 3 points and even

Smyth has been far worst than any other LW and Penner gets the most blame? Murray's system relys on scoring one more goal than your opponent, usually 2-1 or 3-2. Having a LW that is -9 in 16 games is far worst than a forward that is +2 in those same 16 games. Smyth is the only LW that is a minus since Penner has arrived. Has anyone seen Smyth on a backcheck? Has Smyth ever not left the zone before the puck? Has Smyth covered for his defense when they jump up in the play? Smyth has been far worst than anyone else and Murray only says that he needs to start scoring. Why not call him out on his "lazy" defensive play?

Penner has played with Stoll in the past and Murray doens't put his "best" remaining center with Penner? Why? Penner is not a fast skater and he is paired with the slowest center on the team and you expect offense from Penner?

If Penner was a -9 with the Kings, I would be the first to say he needs to be put on the 4th line, but instead he is a +2 and should be playing with the best forwards on the team. The only lines that would be acceptable for Penner right now are:

Penner-Stoll-Brown

or

Penner-Lewis-Brown

Anything else isn't going to have offensive success. Instead we get Penner-Handzus-Moller. Who's going to get the puck to Penner in the offensive zone? Handzus can barely keep up with the play and since he plays deep in the defensive zone, it takes a long time for him to catch up to the play in the offensive zone. Murray's system uses the RW as the primary forechecking forward, how is Moller supposed to recover the puck when he gets rubbed out along the boards?

Are people really perplexed as to why the Kings can't score 5-on-5 with Murray's system and lines? Kings were 19th last year in 5-on-5 offense and are 16th this season. I'm sure that the first responders will say that the Kings are only 6 goals away from 10th in the leauge so they aren't that bad. I would counter that those 6 goals would result in possibly 6 more points in the standings and the Kings would be in the race for the Pacific instead of a race for the 8th seed.

With the roster getting better each season under Murray, it is time for Murray to stop blaming the players and look in the mirror and decide how he can help the team instead of how the players can help his system.

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04-06-2011, 11:26 AM
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just wish penner didnt float so much... he doesnt get involved enough. he needs to be more active.

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04-06-2011, 11:36 AM
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just wish penner didnt float so much... he doesnt get involved enough. he needs to be more active.
It took 40+ games for Poni to get used to Murray's system and it has only been 16 games for Penner. Murray's system seems a lot more structured than most in the NHL and it takes time to adjust for players coming from other teams.

If you are thinking on the ice, you are going to appear to be "lazy" and "floating". Geez, Kopitar is also called out by people as being "lazy" and "floating" and "we wish he was more involved", me included. As more skilled players are brought in by Dean, it becomes more apparent that it is the system that is holding the offense back, not the players.

Remeber that Williams and Smyth missed a lot of time last season and the Kings offense struggled with them and without them. There have only been a few short spurts where the offense produced more than 3+ goals.

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04-06-2011, 11:46 AM
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and Poni also had a training camp to learn it.

i stand by my earlier statement the system holds back the creativity-productivity because guys literally have to WAIT for someone to move into a zone of responsibility. those 'zones' are what make a system work. players are expected to be in 'here' when the puck is in 'this position/circumstance'. it's aimed at taking the thinking out of the game. the problem is it means guys aren't reacting and pushing the play. personally i'm tired of watching the bs that Murray is rolling out there every night

LA is still a few players away, we all know that. im a firm believer in the best defense is a good offense. if you maintain possession the other team can't score. when they do have the puck a good D system and goaltending will take care of business. it's when a team can't or doesn't capitalize on the offense or maintain possession that the **** hits the fan. the old adage of 'put the puck on the net when in doubt' these days is highly over rated. i would prefer to see possession in the O zone that results in a PP opportunity. not to mention the fact the puck isn't anywhere near the LA net.

LA's direction is simple. they need a few players to fill out the roster and coach that sees the light. then they will be where the fans, the players and DL want them. look to VAN folks. Murray keeps throwing out his D mentality and goaltending. well in comparison....

VAN 254 goals for, 183 goals against, +71 goal differential, 2.2 GAA. to top it off the PP is #1 and the PK is #3
LA 214 goals for, 191 goals against, +23 differential, 2.4 GAA, PP is 20th and the PK is #2

VAN is viewed as an offensive team. somehow they've got a better goals against, goal differential, GAA than Murray's D first mentality. how they do it is simple. maintain possession, pressure an opponent offensively so breakdowns occur that lead to goals or PP's. when this doesn't happen play solid D and have a good tender in net.

granted LA doesn't have the Sedin's, but after that you can quickly start matching-comparing players. it comes down to philosophy pure and simple. id bet a paycheck that if the Sedin's were on LA and playing for Murray he would still extoll the D mentality first and shoot first, shoot always mentality


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04-06-2011, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
LW players since Penner was acquired (16 games):

Smyth 1 goal, 6 points and a -9
Poni 1 goals, 6 points and a +1
Penner 2 goals, 6 points and a +2
Clifford 2 goals, 3 points and even

Smyth has been far worst than any other LW and Penner gets the most blame? Murray's system relys on scoring one more goal than your opponent, usually 2-1 or 3-2. Having a LW that is -9 in 16 games is far worst than a forward that is +2 in those same 16 games. Smyth is the only LW that is a minus since Penner has arrived. Has anyone seen Smyth on a backcheck? Has Smyth ever not left the zone before the puck? Has Smyth covered for his defense when they jump up in the play? Smyth has been far worst than anyone else and Murray only says that he needs to start scoring. Why not call him out on his "lazy" defensive play?

Penner has played with Stoll in the past and Murray doens't put his "best" remaining center with Penner? Why? Penner is not a fast skater and he is paired with the slowest center on the team and you expect offense from Penner?

If Penner was a -9 with the Kings, I would be the first to say he needs to be put on the 4th line, but instead he is a +2 and should be playing with the best forwards on the team. The only lines that would be acceptable for Penner right now are:

Penner-Stoll-Brown

or

Penner-Lewis-Brown

Anything else isn't going to have offensive success. Instead we get Penner-Handzus-Moller. Who's going to get the puck to Penner in the offensive zone? Handzus can barely keep up with the play and since he plays deep in the defensive zone, it takes a long time for him to catch up to the play in the offensive zone. Murray's system uses the RW as the primary forechecking forward, how is Moller supposed to recover the puck when he gets rubbed out along the boards?

Are people really perplexed as to why the Kings can't score 5-on-5 with Murray's system and lines? Kings were 19th last year in 5-on-5 offense and are 16th this season. I'm sure that the first responders will say that the Kings are only 6 goals away from 10th in the leauge so they aren't that bad. I would counter that those 6 goals would result in possibly 6 more points in the standings and the Kings would be in the race for the Pacific instead of a race for the 8th seed.

With the roster getting better each season under Murray, it is time for Murray to stop blaming the players and look in the mirror and decide how he can help the team instead of how the players can help his system.
Deflecting blame is a losing argument. Smyth is not up for debate.

Penner has gotten 6 points since he's arrived while playing with our two most talented forwards. He's been fed everything on a silver platter. In that time he has consistently floated, cherry picked on occasion, doesn't battle in the corners, produced well under league average for his position, been called out by the coach, media and commentators, and we gave up a lot of assets and money in the process. There is nothing anyone can say to defend that.

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04-06-2011, 03:57 PM
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Deflecting blame is a losing argument. Smyth is not up for debate.

Penner has gotten 6 points since he's arrived while playing with our two most talented forwards. He's been fed everything on a silver platter. In that time he has consistently floated, cherry picked on occasion, doesn't battle in the corners, produced well under league average for his position, been called out by the coach, media and commentators, and we gave up a lot of assets and money in the process. There is nothing anyone can say to defend that.
B-I-N-G-O.

At yet, unbelievably there will be the deniers...

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04-06-2011, 04:11 PM
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Deflecting blame is a losing argument. Smyth is not up for debate.

Penner has gotten 6 points since he's arrived while playing with our two most talented forwards. He's been fed everything on a silver platter. In that time he has consistently floated, cherry picked on occasion, doesn't battle in the corners, produced well under league average for his position, been called out by the coach, media and commentators, and we gave up a lot of assets and money in the process. There is nothing anyone can say to defend that.
Smyth is in the discussion since he plays the same position as Penner and has had more time to adapt to Murray's system and is playing worse during the same 16 games that Penner is being blasted for. You really think that Smyth is playing better than Penner the past 16 games?

Murray also slammed Sturm when he arrived. Slammed Loktionov and Moller too. Apparently, Murray has favorites and the fans jump on the bandwagon when he opens his mouth.

I need to search for my post when I said that Penner would look great the first 5 or so games and then disappear offensively because of Murray's system. Most didn't believe me back then, but look what happened.

A lot of people are mistaking Penner's hesitation as being lazy and floating. Same thing has been said about Kopitar.

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04-06-2011, 05:32 PM
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I'm ALAWAYS the guy defending everyone. I've take in on the chin defending Murray, Jack, Westgarth, Brown, Qucik and Smyth. I will never find fault in a player who goes out and gives it their all.
I didn't want to derail the JJ thread, so I brought this here.

How can you say that Penner floats and doesn't hit enough when Smyth is by far a bigger floater on defense and hit nobody, ever. How is Smyth giving his all? He leaves the zone before the puck all of the time and results in turnovers and goals against. Guess who Martinez was passing to when it was picked off by the Sharks defenseman and turned into a rebound goal? That's right, Smyth. He was already leaving the zone after the face off win.

I've lost count of how many times Smyth falls down behind the net and kills any chance of a forecheck or zone time.

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04-06-2011, 06:26 PM
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I didn't want to derail the JJ thread, so I brought this here.

How can you say that Penner floats and doesn't hit enough when Smyth is by far a bigger floater on defense and hit nobody, ever. How is Smyth giving his all? He leaves the zone before the puck all of the time and results in turnovers and goals against. Guess who Martinez was passing to when it was picked off by the Sharks defenseman and turned into a rebound goal? That's right, Smyth. He was already leaving the zone after the face off win.

I've lost count of how many times Smyth falls down behind the net and kills any chance of a forecheck or zone time.
I think it will eventually come out after the Kings are put out of their misery that Symth has been playing injured. "Unnamed" sources have alluded as much.

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04-06-2011, 07:03 PM
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The Kings suck at LW except for my boy Cliffy. Penner is struggling, Smyth is struggling and is showing his age, Poni is underachieving and going to be a UFA, Clifford is the best LW right now and he is barely 20.

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04-06-2011, 11:09 PM
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It took 40+ games for Poni to get used to Murray's system and it has only been 16 games for Penner. Murray's system seems a lot more structured than most in the NHL and it takes time to adjust for players coming from other teams.

If you are thinking on the ice, you are going to appear to be "lazy" and "floating". Geez, Kopitar is also called out by people as being "lazy" and "floating" and "we wish he was more involved", me included. As more skilled players are brought in by Dean, it becomes more apparent that it is the system that is holding the offense back, not the players.

Remeber that Williams and Smyth missed a lot of time last season and the Kings offense struggled with them and without them. There have only been a few short spurts where the offense produced more than 3+ goals.
When you sign a guy to a one year contract I'm pretty sure it's safe to say you are expecting he won't take 40+ games to figure a system out. Poni is an epic fail, so using him as a comparible isn't exactly solidifying Penner's status.

And even if people were calling Kopi a floater (something I've not done) he still produced for the most part. Penner has one assist in 10 games, something Kopi has never done to my knowledge. Floating and producing is a lot better than floating and not producing.

Penner's been what I said he would be when we got him. A big body that's full of talent but has the motivation of a clam. He's a 2nd line player with 1st line skill when he's motivated, which isn't nearly enough. We paid a 1st, a 3rd and a decent prospect -despite what this board feels- for a 2nd line winger who is good for 25 goals and 45 points pretty much. I'm really not sure why the majority of Kings fans felt he'd be anything different here. Even Oilers fans admitted he could take time off and check out of games.

I hope he turns it around, I really do. I'm a Kings fan first and I hope Penner rips it up in the playoffs and makes me look foolish. I'd love to eat crow on this. But I don't think I will and we'll still be searching for that top line guy in the off-season, only now we'll be doing it with a $4.5 million addition to our payroll.

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04-06-2011, 11:21 PM
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I'm just not ready to wrie off Penner yet. There is a lot of evidence that skilled, creative players have struggled with Murray's system. And it isn't about effort.

Several players have found success quickly on other teams.

Before Kopitar and Williams got hurt, the Murray offense was struggling to score goals. It's not new that the Kings struggle scoring 5-on-5 under Murray. Last season the PP was more successful, but Murray said he wanted to improve the Kings 5-on-5 scoring and it hasn't happened, even with a more skilled lineup.

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04-06-2011, 11:28 PM
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Location: Tornado Alley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
I didn't want to derail the JJ thread, so I brought this here.

How can you say that Penner floats and doesn't hit enough when Smyth is by far a bigger floater on defense and hit nobody, ever. How is Smyth giving his all? He leaves the zone before the puck all of the time and results in turnovers and goals against. Guess who Martinez was passing to when it was picked off by the Sharks defenseman and turned into a rebound goal? That's right, Smyth. He was already leaving the zone after the face off win.

I've lost count of how many times Smyth falls down behind the net and kills any chance of a forecheck or zone time.
As I said before, Penner had not earned any defending. When he comes to play I'll defend him, like tonight. He's played with heart but it took his coach butchering him in the media to do it. Hopefully he keeps it up.

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