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Old
04-12-2011, 10:58 AM
  #51
Uncle Jorgi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sina220 View Post
Also keep in mind Shero's opinions here. Listed him as an untouchable last deadline. Then gives him a 3 year extension when he's played a total of 14 NHL games to that point. I certainly feel my opinion of Lovejoy is closer to our GM's opinion of him than many of yours. So that also makes me feel more comfortable about my thoughts on Lovejoy. I certainly trust Ray's judgement on undrafted FAs and handing out contracts.
Just curious to this point, when exactly did he make the statement that Lovejoy was untouchable? I just don't remember the comment and i'd like to read it, because i've never seen anything ever quoted outside of a select few core players already on the team that were actually listed as untouchable. Even when Caputi was our best forward prospect before we acquired Tangradi, i didn't see anyone classify him as an untouchable in an actual quote, and we had a much larger dearth of scoring forwards at the time in our system than we have capable defensemen coming through now.

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04-12-2011, 11:03 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Uncle Jorgi View Post
He gave Engelland a contract extension. The same Engelland you say sucks.
And that's it. Guess you didn't care to read the part about Lovejoy being listed as an untouchable?

And I never said Engelland sucks. He's just never going to be a regular NHLer and he was signed as more of an enforcer than a defender. That's obvious.

In fact I'd prefer Engo over Niskanen in the playoffs, esp if Niskanen keeps taking bad penalties. I don't want another Leopold over Mckee situation, which is what we could have brewing. But I am glad it seems Lovejoy has solidified the 5th spot and NIskanen and Engo are rotating the 6th.

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04-12-2011, 11:11 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Uncle Jorgi View Post
Just curious to this point, when exactly did he make the statement that Lovejoy was untouchable? I just don't remember the comment and i'd like to read it, because i've never seen anything ever quoted outside of a select few core players already on the team that were actually listed as untouchable. Even when Caputi was our best forward prospect before we acquired Tangradi, i didn't see anyone classify him as an untouchable in an actual quote, and we had a much larger dearth of scoring forwards at the time in our system than we have capable defensemen coming through now.
Shero said it before the deadline last year.

Quote:
Eric Tangradi was among four prospects Shero would not move at the deadline. Others were 2010 first-round pick Simon Despres and developing defensemen Robert Bortuzzo and Ben Lovejoy, who is a candidate to play in the NHL next season
Read more: Shero, Pens 'Poni' up for scoring-line winger - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt...#ixzz1JKGdSQYk

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04-12-2011, 11:16 AM
  #54
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Another source


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Originally, Shero had him on his list of untouchables along with the Penguins' No. 1 pick in the June draft, 2009 No. 1 pick Simon Despres and Wilkes-Barre/Scranton winger Eric Tangradi and defensemen Ben Lovejoy and Robert Bortuzzo.
Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10063...#ixzz1JKHX6ZvN

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04-12-2011, 11:19 AM
  #55
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Niskanen > Engelland > Lovejoy

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Old
04-12-2011, 11:21 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by sina220 View Post
Shero said it before the deadline last year.


Read more: Shero, Pens 'Poni' up for scoring-line winger - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt...#ixzz1JKGdSQYk
He never said Lovejoy was untouchable, man

He was one of a handful of prospects he wasn't interested in moving at a deadline where one of the most intriguing possible acquisitions was Poni, for god's sake. That doesn't mean he is thought of as untouchable. He traded Caputi that deadline, and there were reports the previous year that said he wasn't interested in dealing HIM.

Do you honestly think Robert Bortuzzo is untouchable too?

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04-12-2011, 11:27 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sina220 View Post
That quote lists the guy THEY JUST TRADED as originally being one of the "untouchables" on the list. That would seem to contraindicate the definition of untouchable, yes?

The reason they didn't want to trade him last deadline is because they needed a defenseman to slot into one of the spots this year, and Lovejoy was the most NHL ready at that point. Right now, he's one of 3 viable condidates for the bottom pairing. It's not the same reality anymore.

Have you seen anything this year indicating that he's untouchable? Because when Sid and Geno went down and Lovejoy wasn't getting much playing time earlier this year, i actually saw him being listed as a theoretical possibility in a couple articles as trade bait for scoring help. Why would anyone speculate that if it was public knowledge that he was "untouchable"?

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04-12-2011, 11:40 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by sina220 View Post
Then why hasn't coming to a more open system and a more "transition" oriented system done anything to increase Niskanens production? We're obviously better than Dallas throughout the lineup. I'm still waiting for this apparent potential and skill to manifest itself as some results. Take out two assists aided by solid lovejoy plays against ATL and Niski has 2 points in 17 games. Even funnier Lovejoy is directly responsible for at least half of niskanens points as a Pen, but he's the less offensive of the 2.
I have actually not minded Niskanen's offensive play. I think he skates the puck out very well, he has a great pass, and he can join rushes.

If you want to talk about the production of Niskanen, look no further than what has happened to the production of Letang since we have lost nearly a goal per game of offense.

As I've said, Lovejoy producing isn't him being some offensive dynamo. It's him, for lack of a better phrase, having some good luck. Guy's are scoring off of his passes. Good on him. Not going to anoint him one of the next great offensive defensemen or make him out to be something he isn't.

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Originally Posted by sina220 View Post
Also keep in mind Shero's opinions here. Listed him as an untouchable last deadline. Then gives him a 3 year extension when he's played a total of 14 NHL games to that point. I certainly feel my opinion of Lovejoy is closer to our GM's opinion of him than many of yours. So that also makes me feel more comfortable about my thoughts on Lovejoy. I certainly trust Ray's judgement on undrafted FAs and handing out contracts.
Think back to last deadline. Who were our defensemen going into this season? There's your answer.

Lovejoy was more than likely untouchable because he was a sure bet to re-sign, and having some NHL potential, if Shero lost out in free agency, he would have really needed Lovejoy. Shero didn't dangle Lovejoy because Lovejoy would be saving Shero's bacon if he didn't land Martin and Michalek.

Your opinion is inflated because you read one article last deadline, took it, and then proceeded to run with it. Because Lovejoy was untouchable doesn't mean that he is now, or that Shero sees him as a piece of the future. He was merely making his most NHL ready defenseman off limits because he was overhauling the defense this past offseason. Lovejoy was insurance if anything went wrong.

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04-12-2011, 02:44 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sina220 View Post
And that wasn't a response to JTG, so...

Is JTG the end-all be-all to your hockey opinions? I didn't know that, I'll be sure to respond to him next time instead of you to cut out the middle-man
Bout time.

Anyways, as far as actual skills are concerned, I too would have to give Niskanen the edge over Lovejoy. The main reason Niskanen was even a first rounder was because of his excellent skating ability and strong overall play with the puck. At the moment though, his main weakness is his hockey pedigree, which we hope will improve with experience and age.

No one is taking anything away from Lovejoy either, so i don't see why you're getting as defensive as you are over him. The fact that he may not be quite as much of a finesse player as Niskanen doesn't necessarily make him a "worse" d-man...

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04-12-2011, 02:53 PM
  #60
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Lovejoy was fantastic against Atlanta, impressed me, I say keep him for longer as he's looking like an improved player. I'd rather have him than Hutchinson as well.

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04-12-2011, 03:55 PM
  #61
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Good for the Rev. Those are some decent numbers

Of those trio of dmen, none of them really stand out. But that's almost what you expect out of bottom-pairing defensemen really. They all have their pros and cons. Niskanen obviously has the highest ceiling but it remains to be seen if he ever puts it together, whether with the Pens or elsewhere.

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04-12-2011, 05:03 PM
  #62
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I could definitely see him being a good 2nd PP point man, possibly a "we don't have anyone else" option on the 1st unit like Martin is now.

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04-12-2011, 05:35 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Jorgi View Post
That quote lists the guy THEY JUST TRADED as originally being one of the "untouchables" on the list. That would seem to contraindicate the definition of untouchable, yes?"?
Or if you read the article Shero says the only reason they did the deal was because they never thought it could happen for just Caputi, but when Toronto said that's all they wanted they had to take it.

And we're talking Lovejoy anyway, caputi being traded doesn't change the fact that he and Lovejoy were originally on a "untouchable" list. Sorry.

The quotes were referring to a Shero press conference after the deadline. I'm sorry I couldn't quote the exact transcript for ya. I'll try and provide at least 3 sources next time, but the exact term "untouchable" was used by Shero referring to Lovejoy. I'm sorry you can't believe it, but it's true bud.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Jorgi View Post
The reason they didn't want to trade him last deadline is because they needed a defenseman to slot into one of the spots this year, and Lovejoy was the most NHL ready at that point. Right now, he's one of 3 viable condidates for the bottom pairing. It's not the same reality anymore."?
So my 2 sources aren't good enough for you, but you provide some speculative reason as to why he wasn't traded last year with no sources? Gimme a break.

Sure our team needing defensemen this year played into it, but there's a reason he, Despres, and Bort were on that list and not Strait, Grant, etc. Because THEY'RE MORE VALUABLE. Why are they more valuable? Because they're better players, have greater potential, and we're deemed too important to the future of this franchise.

And I never said he's untouchable now, I simply was using it as a barometer for what out GM thinks of Lovejoy. Which is obviously higher than the majority of our other prospects/developing defenders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Jorgi View Post

Have you seen anything this year indicating that he's untouchable? Because when Sid and Geno went down and Lovejoy wasn't getting much playing time earlier this year, i actually saw him being listed as a theoretical possibility in a couple articles as trade bait for scoring help. Why would anyone speculate that if it was public knowledge that he was "untouchable"?
Probably because they didn't read the article or see the press conference last year, just like you didn't?

And wouldn't lovejoy being rumored as bait for scoring help prove his value must be high? If he was viewed around the league as being only a bottom pair defender, max potential, what scoring help could you really get? None.

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04-12-2011, 06:39 PM
  #64
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lovejoy plays much better when he has more min. and a solid partner......when he doesn't he trys to do too much and his game suffers considerably. england seems to be able to play less min., not rely on his partner and continue to play about the same, but then hes much older.

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04-12-2011, 07:57 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by sina220 View Post
Or if you read the article Shero says the only reason they did the deal was because they never thought it could happen for just Caputi, but when Toronto said that's all they wanted they had to take it.

And we're talking Lovejoy anyway, caputi being traded doesn't change the fact that he and Lovejoy were originally on a "untouchable" list. Sorry.

The quotes were referring to a Shero press conference after the deadline. I'm sorry I couldn't quote the exact transcript for ya. I'll try and provide at least 3 sources next time, but the exact term "untouchable" was used by Shero referring to Lovejoy. I'm sorry you can't believe it, but it's true bud.




So my 2 sources aren't good enough for you, but you provide some speculative reason as to why he wasn't traded last year with no sources? Gimme a break.

Sure our team needing defensemen this year played into it, but there's a reason he, Despres, and Bort were on that list and not Strait, Grant, etc. Because THEY'RE MORE VALUABLE. Why are they more valuable? Because they're better players, have greater potential, and we're deemed too important to the future of this franchise.

And I never said he's untouchable now, I simply was using it as a barometer for what out GM thinks of Lovejoy. Which is obviously higher than the majority of our other prospects/developing defenders.



Probably because they didn't read the article or see the press conference last year, just like you didn't?

And wouldn't lovejoy being rumored as bait for scoring help prove his value must be high? If he was viewed around the league as being only a bottom pair defender, max potential, what scoring help could you really get? None.
I think you are taking Lovejoy not being on the trade table way too literally.

It had way more with where he is career wise than it had to do with Shero seeing some crazy skill that none of us have seen.

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04-12-2011, 09:50 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sina220 View Post
Also the biggest liability in the playoffs, the worst in his own zone, and the one who's seen his ice-time vanish the past 3 weeks.
Completely disagree. Engelland's played more effective defense than Lovejoy this year - similar to Lovejoy but with some snarl, which complements this blueline more than the extra offense Lovejoy brings.

As for ice-time, well, we know who's gotten more of it on the whole this year. Or do you only defer to the decisions of coaches/management when it suits your ends?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sina220 View Post
The quotes were referring to a Shero press conference after the deadline. I'm sorry I couldn't quote the exact transcript for ya. I'll try and provide at least 3 sources next time, but the exact term "untouchable" was used by Shero referring to Lovejoy. I'm sorry you can't believe it, but it's true bud.
I'm sure you're capable of taking context into consideration here. Shero was undoubtedly referring to that list as "virtually untouchable for the purposes of short-term acquisitions at the trade deadline" - which is hardly anything remarkable. It suggests Lovejoy's a solid defense prospect, which we all knew, not some sort of Shero-annointed chosen one.

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And I never said he's untouchable now, I simply was using it as a barometer for what out GM thinks of Lovejoy. Which is obviously higher than the majority of our other prospects/developing defenders.
That much was never in doubt.

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04-13-2011, 06:59 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by sina220 View Post
Also keep in mind Shero's opinions here. Listed him as an untouchable last deadline. Then gives him a 3 year extension when he's played a total of 14 NHL games to that point. I certainly feel my opinion of Lovejoy is closer to our GM's opinion of him than many of yours. So that also makes me feel more comfortable about my thoughts on Lovejoy. I certainly trust Ray's judgement on undrafted FAs and handing out contracts.
I don't remember Lovejoy being listed as untouchable. Anyway, I wouldn't put much stock in that statement. Other than Crosby, Malkin, Letang, and Fleury, I don't think any player is really untouchable.

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04-13-2011, 08:28 AM
  #68
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Can't we just be happy with the fact that we have a ridiculous amount of depth on the blueline??? Just imagine next season when Despres makes a serious bid for a roster spot!

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