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ATD2011 Draft Summary

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Old
04-15-2011, 12:18 PM
  #26
VMBM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
And those numbers were included in his overall total...
Again, care to show the study and not just refer to it?

Best-on-best, Makarov beats both Mikhailov (5 points in 8 games in '72*) and Yakushev (11 pts in 8 g. in '72).

* he was robbed on a couple of occasions, though (should've gotten an assist in game 3 and 5)

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Old
04-15-2011, 01:02 PM
  #27
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Again, care to show the study and not just refer to it?
Don't have it anymore.

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Old
04-15-2011, 01:08 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Dionne playoff record is terrible. If you have the chance to read HO analysis on his playoff record, it's worth a read.
As far as Dionne's playoff record, the numbers have been broken down a million times. I would love to hear the accounts of people who watched Mr. Dionne play in the playoffs before I decide whether his playoffs were good or not. No matter how you slice it, continuing his production at the pace he set in the regular season is something very, very few players in history would ever be able to accomplish, and none of them would do it without help (aside from Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr.. but they all had help). Dionne's regular seasons, despite having little help on his team, is astounding. The other team focuses more on him in the playoffs, and because there is nobody else to help him much, he is not able to be as effective. Happens a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
The study wasn't designed to identify the best players. It was only done to find out which Soviet players were able to score the most against Canada.

Yakushev topped that list. Makarov was behind Krutov and only slighty ahead of Larionov.
So.. you're going to make a conclusive judgment based on the smallest sample size you could possibly find that suited you?

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Old
04-15-2011, 01:30 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
As far as Dionne's playoff record, the numbers have been broken down a million times. I would love to hear the accounts of people who watched Mr. Dionne play in the playoffs before I decide whether his playoffs were good or not. No matter how you slice it, continuing his production at the pace he set in the regular season is something very, very few players in history would ever be able to accomplish, and none of them would do it without help (aside from Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr.. but they all had help). Dionne's regular seasons, despite having little help on his team, is astounding. The other team focuses more on him in the playoffs, and because there is nobody else to help him much, he is not able to be as effective. Happens a lot.
He was a point per game in the play-offs during his prime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
So.. you're going to make a conclusive judgment based on the smallest sample size you could possibly find that suited you?
How does it suit me either way? I don't have any Soviet forwards, so I'm not sure how any of that benefits me.

The point of the study was to see how the top end Soviet scorers performed against the best competition. 41 goals in 50 games against Finland doesn't really impress you, does it?

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Old
04-15-2011, 01:58 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
As far as Dionne's playoff record, the numbers have been broken down a million times. I would love to hear the accounts of people who watched Mr. Dionne play in the playoffs before I decide whether his playoffs were good or not. No matter how you slice it, continuing his production at the pace he set in the regular season is something very, very few players in history would ever be able to accomplish, and none of them would do it without help (aside from Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr.. but they all had help). Dionne's regular seasons, despite having little help on his team, is astounding. The other team focuses more on him in the playoffs, and because there is nobody else to help him much, he is not able to be as effective. Happens a lot.



So.. you're going to make a conclusive judgment based on the smallest sample size you could possibly find that suited you?
You should hang out on the HoH board more often. Plenty of posters saw Dionne. BC generally defends him, most others (Dark Shadows and Canadiens1958 come to mind but there were others) say he really was that bad.

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Old
04-15-2011, 04:43 PM
  #31
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Biggest Steal of the draft I dunno...we're getting to the point where there are no longer major steals
Biggest Reach of the draft Mats Sundin
Smartest/best strategic pick in the draft John Leclair
Biggest blunder selection of the draft Mats Sundin
A Player finally getting respect in the draft Reg Noble
A player always taken too high, finally getting picked where he should in the draft Cam Neely
A player you've discovered in this draft Al Rollins
Most underrated player taken Rod Gilbert
Most overrated player taken Alexander Ragulin
Favourite line of the draft Lindsay - Primeau - Conacher
Best assembled line of the draft Paul Kariya - Mario Lemieux - Boris Mikhailov
Worst assembled line of the draft Dave "Tiger" Williams (GOON) - Doru Tureanu (???) - Allan "Scotty" Davidson (DEAD)
Favourite pairing of defensemen Brad Park-Bill White
Most puzzling pairing of defensemen Nikolai Sologubov (A) - Glen Harmon
Team in the other conference it'd be interesting to meet in the finals Toronto St. Pats
Team in the other conference you wouldn't want to meet in the finals Guelph
A funny/dramatic story (related to the ATD) you've learned about since the start of the draft Charlie Conacher's 14 inch dong

---

Best selection: You cannot vote for players you own
1st round: Guy Lafleur #21
2nd round: Andy Bathgate #67
3rd round: Peter Stastny #115
4th round: ???
5th round: Babe Siebert #161
6th round: Vladimir Martinec #225
7th round: Martin St. Louis #248
8th round: Patrick Elias #319
9th round: Ron Ellis #346
10th round: Don McKenney #366
11th round: Lester Patrick, coach #410
12nd round: Bob Nevin #454
13th round: ???
14th round: Rick Nash #531
15th round: Calle Johansson #593
16th round: Dave Trottier #623
17th round: Jamie Macoun #655
...eh, that's enough

'Worst' Selection
1st round: Syl Apps Sr. #40
2nd round: Mats Sundin #53
3rd round: Sidney Crosby #101
4th round: Vladimir Konstantinov #124
5th round: Pavel Datsyuk #194
6th round: Vladimir Krutov #232
7th round: Gerry Cheevers #253
8th round: Vsevolod Bobrov #316
9th round: Michael Peca #321
10th round: ???
11th round: Vic Hadfield #425
12nd round: ???
13th round: Mike Vernon #513
14th round: Dion Phaneuf #535
15th round: Oldrich Machac #592
16th round: ???
17th round: Kirk Maltby #673
...
What do you have against Hadfield? I thought he was the best offensive glue guy remaining.

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Old
04-15-2011, 05:22 PM
  #32
TheDevilMadeMe
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Biggest Steal of the draft Jan Starsi in the last round was robbery when you consider the number of less impressive coaches drafted earlier

Biggest Reach of the draft Mats Sundin

Smartest/best strategic pick in the draft Frank Patrick seems like the perfect counterpart to Tarasov

Biggest blunder selection of the draft Vsevolod Bobrov, given team needs

A Player finally getting respect in the draft Dead Puck era stars like Patrik Elias, Martin St. Louis, Daniel Alfredsson, and Marion Hossa who used to get picked behind 1980s compilers

A player always taken too high, finally getting picked where he should in the draft I didn't pay all that much attention to past draft position this time, but I guess Eric Lindros around 150 sounds about right

A player you've discovered in this draft Tommy Phillips on my own team, George Hay and Hugh Lehman on other teams. Digging into the early years via google archives has been most enlightening. Lennart Svedberg actually seems worthy of his draft position, too (something I doubted in the past).

Most underrated player taken Eddie Gerard really seems like he could go closer to Langway and Savard.

Most overrated player taken George Hainsworth

Favourite line of the draft - Paul Kariya - Mario Lemieux - Boris Mikhailov

Best assembled line of the draft Smokey Harris - Frank McGee - Ken Hodge. It's hard to assemble lines around the early era star centers who are basically one-man shows, but this one just works, even if the wings aren't the best talent. Doug Bentley - Henrik Zetterberg - Jaromir Jagr is another well assembled line around a player hard to build around.

Worst assembled line of the draft John Ferguson - Jonathan Toews - Viktor Shalimov puzzles me.

Favourite pairing of defensemen King Clancy - Hap Day, Chris Chelios - Marcel Pronovost, Eddie Gerard - Chris Pronger

Most puzzling pairing of defensemen Dion Phaneuf- #4 Dave Ellett

Team in the other conference it'd be interesting to meet in the finals Gwinett Gladiators. Paul Coffey vs. Henri Richard would be an interesting matchup of a forward defending against a defenseman more than the other way around.

Team in the other conference you wouldn't want to meet in the finals Regina Pats. If for no other reason than tired of arguing with 70s in the playoffs.

A funny/dramatic story (related to the ATD) you've learned about since the start of the draft Have to second Charlie Conacher's gigantic dong with this one.

Best selection:
I already did this part in the other thread. Maybe I'll edit it in.

'Worst' Selection
1st round: Al MacInnis
2nd round: Mats Sundin
3rd round: Yvan Cournoyer
4th round: Vladimir Konstantinov, George Hainsworth
5th round: Sergei Zubov
6th round: Adam Foote
7th round: Gary Roberts, Nikolai Sologubov
8th round: Vsevolod Bobrov
9th round: Bill Barilko
10th round: Stan Smyl, Wendel Clark
11th round: Adam Graves, Vic Hadfield
12nd round: Willie Mitchell
13th round: Dennis Kearns, HM: Ken Daneyko
14th round: John Ogrodnick, HM: Boris Mayorov
15th round: Ron Stackhouse
16th round: Duane Sutter
17th round: Kirk Maltby
18th round: Lyle Odelein
19th round: John Tortorella, Coach
20th round: Boris Kulagin, Coach
21st round: Dave Semenko, LW
22nd round: Rob Niedermayer, Doru Tureanu?, Alf Smith, Coach?
23th round: Aaron Ward
24th round: Manny Malhotra, Gary Roberts, Conditioning Coach, Paul MacLean, Coach
25th round: Chris Nilan

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Old
04-15-2011, 05:49 PM
  #33
jarek
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
He was a point per game in the play-offs during his prime.
Don't care about stats. We've seen them 305, 732 times. I want to know what the people thought of his performances.

Quote:
The point of the study was to see how the top end Soviet scorers performed against the best competition. 41 goals in 50 games against Finland doesn't really impress you, does it?
Maybe it isn't AS impressive, but it certainly is important to note. It definitely adds to his legacy.

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Old
04-15-2011, 06:08 PM
  #34
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Biggest Steal of the draft I'll say Lemieux, nothing wrong with Harvey again. But Lemieux instantly sparks any teams offense, and I can't recall any others.
Biggest Reach of the draft Mats Sundin
Smartest/best strategic pick in the draft Sergei Makarov, birthed a very strong top-6 for the Fighting Saints
Biggest blunder selection of the draft Dennis Kearns, Willie Mitchell, Mats Sundin, Manny Malhotra
A Player finally getting respect in the draft Hooley Smith, Bert Olmstead
A player always taken too high, finally getting picked where he should in the draft Cam Neely, to reiterate what Sturm said, even though he's my own player. 125 is a perfect position for Bam-Bam. Esa Tikkanen as well.
A player you've discovered in this draft Cecil Dillon
Most underrated player taken Vladimir Petrov
Most overrated player taken Brad McCrimmon
Favourite line of the draft Ted Lindsay - Joe Primeau - Charlie Conacher and Paul Kariya - Mario Lemieux - Boris Mikhailov
Best assembled line of the draft The two mentioned above and Johnny Bucyk - Mark Messier - Teemu Selanne
Worst assembled line of the draft Wendel Clark - Denis Savard - Jean Pronovost, sorry Reen, I just don't see enough "flavor" or potential for this line to succeed.
Favourite pairing of defensemen Pierre Pilote - Babe Siebert
Most puzzling pairing of defensemen Rod Langway - Eduard Ivanov
Team in the other conference it'd be interesting to meet in the finals Halifax Mooseheads
Team in the other conference you wouldn't want to meet in the finals Toronto St. Pats
A funny/dramatic story (related to the ATD) you've learned about since the start of the draft The Life and Times of Reen Machine

---

Best selection: You cannot vote for players you own
1st round: Stan Mikita - 13
2nd round: Valeri Kharlamov - 47
3rd round: Alex Delvecchio - 99
4th round: Fern Flaman - 157
5th round: Babe Siebert - 161
6th round: Vladimir Petrov - 202
7th round: Ed Litzenberger - 216
8th round: Reggie Leach - 308
9th round: Bill Mosienko - 338
10th round: Hugh Lehman - 372
11th round: Derek Sanderson - 406
12th round: Eric Nesterenko - 442
13th round: Dan Bain - 510
14th round: Sven Johansson - 525
15th round: Louis Berlinguette - 562
16th round: Bernie Nicholls - 602
17th round: Mickey Redmond - 643
18th round: Tony Amonte - 708
19th round: Vasili Pervukhin - 736
20th round: Al MacAdam - 782
21st round: Michal Handzus - 832

'Worst' Selection
1st round: Al MacInnis - 28
2nd round: Mats Sundin - 53
3rd round: Billy Smith - 108
4th round: Vladimir Konstantinov - 124
5th round: Allan Stanley - 181
6th round: Toe Blake - 215
7th round: Mike Grant - 274 (Love him, but taken way too early)
8th round: Vsevolod Bobrov - 316
9th round: Bill Barilko - 354
10th round: Wendel Clark - 399
11th round: Harry Westwick - 434
12nd round: Willie Mitchell - 458
13th round: Mike Vernon - 513
14th round: Dion Phaneuf - 535
15th round: Andre Dupont - 594
16th round: Anders Eldebrink - 608
17th round: Clem Loughlin - 678
18th round: Pekka Lindmark - 688 and Jonathan Toews - 709
19th round: John Tortorella - 721
20th round: Boris Kulagin - 796
21st round: Peter Zezel - 826

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Old
04-15-2011, 07:04 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
22nd round: Rob Niedermayer, Doru Tureanu?, Alf Smith, Coach?
So Pete Green wins 6 Cups in 13 seasons as Ottawa's coach and is OK pick in round 13 as head coach, but Alf Smith who won 4 Cups in 11 seasons coaching the same franchise is a bad pick as assistant coach in round 22?

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Old
04-15-2011, 07:12 PM
  #36
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So Pete Green wins 6 Cups in 13 seasons as Ottawa's coach and is OK pick in round 13 as head coach, but Alf Smith who won 4 Cups in 11 seasons coaching the same franchise is a bad pick as assistant coach in round 22?
Was Alf Smith a player/coach for all of them or was he ever behind the bench? What exactly did he do as "coach?"

That's why I put a question mark by it. I honestly don't know the answer.

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Old
04-15-2011, 07:18 PM
  #37
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Was Alf Smith a player/coach for all of them or was he ever behind the bench? What exactly did he do as "coach?"

That's why I put a question mark by it. I honestly don't know the answer.
He was playing coach only for 4 seasons.

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Old
04-15-2011, 07:26 PM
  #38
TheDevilMadeMe
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Well if it makes you feel better, I take it back.

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Old
04-15-2011, 07:29 PM
  #39
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Id beg to differ about Lindros. He should go around 125-130 IMO (a little lower than where he usually goes) I thought he was a bit of a steal at 150.

Cam Neely is the answer to that question.

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Old
04-15-2011, 08:01 PM
  #40
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Id beg to differ about Lindros. He should go around 125-130 IMO (a little lower than where he usually goes) I thought he was a bit of a steal at 150.

Cam Neely is the answer to that question.
Cam Neely still went a little high for my tastes, to be honest.

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Old
04-15-2011, 08:03 PM
  #41
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Also, you may be right about Eric, simply because his size creates matchup problems that make him more valuable here than centers who might be "ranked" higher.

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Old
04-15-2011, 08:20 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Also, you may be right about Eric, simply because his size creates matchup problems that make him more valuable here than centers who might be "ranked" higher.
Well theres no way Larionov or Barry were better hockey players (guys taken ahead of him), thats just off the top of my head.

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Old
04-15-2011, 08:30 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Well theres no way Larionov or Barry were better hockey players (guys taken ahead of him), thats just off the top of my head.
Barry, no. Larionov, quote possibly if you value longevity and consistency a lot.

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Old
04-15-2011, 10:52 PM
  #44
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I personally think Ed Litzenberger should be lower

between 300 and 350

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Old
04-15-2011, 11:16 PM
  #45
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I personally think Ed Litzenberger should be lower

between 300 and 350
Kaberle, Steve Thomas and Stephane Richer should be drafted ahead?

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Old
04-15-2011, 11:25 PM
  #46
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Well theres no way Larionov or Barry were better hockey players (guys taken ahead of him), thats just off the top of my head.
Barry's playoff scoring changes relative to peers is phenomenal.

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Old
04-16-2011, 12:01 AM
  #47
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Most puzzling pairing of defensemen Rod Langway - Eduard Ivanov
What's not to get? It's a shutdown first pairing. Langway is a top defensive defenseman, and Ivanov is a physical defensive defenseman that provides adequate offense.

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Old
04-16-2011, 12:36 AM
  #48
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Biggest Steal of the draft: Vladimir Martinec
Biggest Reach of the draft: Mats Sundin
Smartest/best strategic pick in the draft: Sedin & Sedin
Biggest blunder selection of the draft: Wendel Clark
A Player finally getting respect in the draft: Russell Bowie
A player always taken too high, finally getting picked where he should in the draft: Cam Neely
A player you've discovered in this draft: Frank McGee
Most underrated player taken: Pit Martin
Most overrated player taken: Vsevolod Bobrov
Favourite line of the draft: Simmer-Dionne-Howe
Best assembled line of the draft: Moore-Stastny-Cournoyer
Worst assembled line of the draft: Courtnall-Reay-Kovalev
Favourite pairing of defensemen: Harvey-Flaman
Most puzzling pairing of defensemen: Munro-Baker
Team in the other conference it'd be interesting to meet in the finals: Inglewood, they have a unique team setup.
Team in the other conference you wouldn't want to meet in the finals: Swamp Devils
A funny/dramatic story (related to the ATD) you've learned about since the start of the draft: Frank McGee being knocked unconscious multiple times in the same game, and still having a hat trick, including the GWG.

---

Best selection: You cannot vote for players you own
1st round: Mario Lemieux
2nd round: Henri Richard
3rd round: Anatoli Firsov
4th round: Ching Johnson
5th round: Hap Day
6th round: Vladimir Martinec
7th round: Craig Ramsay
8th round: Randy Carlyle
9th round: Tommy Dunderdale
10th round: Joe Klukay
11th round: Ziggy Palffy
12nd round: Gennady Tsygankov
13th round: Ken Linseman
14th round: Boris Mayorov
15th round: Andre Dupont
16th round: Pit Martin
17th round: Kimmo Timonen
18th round: Clint Smith
19th round: Vasili Pervukhin
20th round: Leo Labine
21st round: Jaroslav Jirik
22nd round: Cully Dahlstrom
23th round: Lubomir Visnovsky
24th round: Weldy Young
25th round: Don Grosso

'Worst' Selection
1st round: Al MacInnis
2nd round: Mark Howe(too high)
3rd round: Sidney Crosby
4th round: Vladimir Konstantinov
5th round: Bob Gainey
6th round: Esa Tikkanen
7th round: Nikolai Sologubov
8th round: Vsevolod Bobrov
9th round: Bill Barilko
10th round: Wendel Clark
11th round: Vincent Damphousse
12nd round: Terry O'Reilly
13th round: Ken Daneyko
14th round: Ivan Tregubov
15th round: Roberto Luongo
16th round: Duane Sutter
17th round: Tomas Homstrom
18th round: Jonathon Toews
19th round: Alexei Kovalev
20th round: Brian Skrudland
21st round: PJ Axelsson
22nd round: Ed Olczyk
23th round: Anton Volchenkov
24th round: Gary Roberts, conditioning coach
25th round: Chris Nilan

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Old
04-16-2011, 02:27 AM
  #49
seventieslord
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Team in the other conference you wouldn't want to meet in the finals Regina Pats. If for no other reason than tired of arguing with 70s in the playoffs.
Amen brotha!

Quote:
A funny/dramatic story (related to the ATD) you've learned about since the start of the draft Have to second Charlie Conacher's gigantic dong with this one.
This is a popular one, haha...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Cam Neely still went a little high for my tastes, to be honest.
Same here. But not much.

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Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
I personally think Ed Litzenberger should be lower

between 300 and 350
Same here. I'm not sure why he gets picked as high as he does. He doesn't have the offensive or defensive record of anyone in that range.


----------------

About Eldebrink - he seems to be getting a lot of love as the worst pick of his round. He was taken in the AAA draft and we all recognized it to be a very solid pick at that time. Of course that doesn't mean he's a good pick at #608 necessarily, BUT...

- he deserved some sort of jump
- he was taken by a guy who knows perhaps more about him than all of us combined (correct me if I'm wrong, jkrx), let's hear what he has to say
- with this being the round Duane Sutter, 1950s Soviet Yevgeny Babich, and (I'm reaching here...) Dave Langevin, all of whom we can be pretty sure were mediocre, I see no need to anoint him the worst of the round when he is just an unknown. Given when he played and what little I know of what he accomplished, my gut says he ain't the worst.

I fully realize he might be a homer pick on jkrx's part; I was hoping he'd teach us some more about him.

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04-16-2011, 02:37 AM
  #50
Sturminator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
What do you have against Hadfield? I thought he was the best offensive glue guy remaining.
Other than Hadfield's one great season, he was pretty much just a grinder who wasn't special defensively. Offensively, he's pretty much Jonathan Cheechoo (ok, without the AHL demotion). Left wing glue guys still available who I think provide better offense and all-around play include Bruce Stuart, Vic Stasiuk, Smokey Harris, and Shane Doan. I don't include Jack Adams here only because I'm not convinced he was a regular left wing.

There are a few guys I "traditionally" don't like - Hadfield is one of them, with Ragulin and Krutov (and to an extent Lalonde) being my other favorite whipping boys.


Last edited by Sturminator: 04-16-2011 at 02:43 AM.
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