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Old
04-16-2011, 01:42 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Same here. I'm not sure why he gets picked as high as he does. He doesn't have the offensive or defensive record of anyone in that range.
He was one of pappy's guys, and I think there was also a misconception in the past that because of his size, Litzenberger was a physical player who could be used as a puckwinner on a scoringline. Hell, I had him as the primary puckwinner on the second line of my first ATD championship team and there wasn't a peep of criticism about the line or Litzenberger's role on it.

His positional flexibility and well-rounded offense are still quite useful, though.

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04-16-2011, 01:48 AM
  #52
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Sturm, what on earth happened to Hadfield that season? 4th in league scoring, but never even top 30 again, playing with stars Ratelle and Gilbert. He actually outscored Gilbert I his one great season I think

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04-16-2011, 01:50 AM
  #53
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I don't include Jack Adams here only because I'm not convinced he was a regular left wing.
OK, you did see my answer to this one, didn't you?

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04-16-2011, 03:25 AM
  #54
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The point of the study was to see how the top end Soviet scorers performed against the best competition. 41 goals in 50 games against Finland doesn't really impress you, does it?
So, what I'm getting here is that according to you, just any old Canada (like, say, the one that played in the 1969 WC and finished 4th) is "the best competition" (?)

As far as I'm concerned, both Mikhailov and Yakushev played eight games against best possible Team Canada (1972); WHA's Team Canada in 1974 and those who played in the World Championships until 1969 and post 1977 aren't what I would call "the best competion". Sorry, but your so called study is getting more dubious by the minute.

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04-16-2011, 07:50 AM
  #55
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OK, you did see my answer to this one, didn't you?
Actually, no.

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04-16-2011, 07:52 AM
  #56
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Sturm, what on earth happened to Hadfield that season? 4th in league scoring, but never even top 30 again, playing with stars Ratelle and Gilbert. He actually outscored Gilbert I his one great season I think
Actually very much like Cheechoo. Hadfield legitimately developed into a great offensive player (also complementing well the skill of his linemates) and then the next season started to break down physically and was never the same. It's really a shame about Vic, because he was on his way, but it ended up being a flash in the pan because he just got too beat up.

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04-16-2011, 08:27 AM
  #57
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He was obviously still a very useful member of the line. I mean, he would not have stuck there for as long as he did otherwise.

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04-16-2011, 03:52 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Actually, no.
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Adams actually played all over the place. When you look at the playoff games in The Trail in which he was not listed as a "sub" (1920-1925), it seems he could never stay at the same position: Rover, Rover, W (most likely LW based on the other W, the other team, and the order they are usually listed), W (most likely LW), RW, C, C, C, C, W (most likely LW), W (most likely LW), C, C, C, C, C, Rover, W (most likely LW), C, C.
that was 6 of 20 playoff games, as well as 3 as a rover and one as a RW, so he appears to have been more of a multi-positional guy than most were.

At least in the playoffs, that is. And 16 of those 20 games were either PCHA or St-Cup with Vancouver, too.

So what's difficult about this, is that we know what he played in the playoffs, and it is an indication of what the regular seasons may have been like, but it's not conclusive. When I find game reports listing positions, they are always from his Toronto years (and he's always a center there) and very rarely regular season games from his Vancouver years.

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04-16-2011, 10:33 PM
  #59
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What's not to get? It's a shutdown first pairing. Langway is a top defensive defenseman, and Ivanov is a physical defensive defenseman that provides adequate offense.
Yeah sorry Billy, I was pretty lazy and didn't bother going through rosters at this point. Not a huge fan of this pairing, but there are worse ones. Like Munro and Baker, as you stated.

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04-16-2011, 11:24 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Kaberle, Steve Thomas and Stephane Richer should be drafted ahead?
richer has the talent to be drafted ahead of eddie litz for sure but his other intangibles hold him back.

kaberle isn't on my team so....

and steve thomas wasn't drafted before eddie.


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Old
04-17-2011, 01:42 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
He was obviously still a very useful member of the line. I mean, he would not have stuck there for as long as he did otherwise.
Jean Ratelle didn't really develop until around 1967 - he was quite old for a breakout player and a lot of people were pretty skeptical at the time. At any rate, he and Gilbert started playing together fairly early, but if I remember, the GAG line wasn't actually assembled until 1968-69. Before that, the Rangers used Don Marshall with Gilbert and Ratelle and Hadfield was a lower line grinder. So I guess he played on the GAG line for 5-6 seasons.

Another issue with Hadfield is that the Rangers desperately needed a physical presence on the line (as much for fighting as puckwinning - it was the pinnacle of goon hockey), and Vic was a worse and less willing fighter than he looked. The biggest reason Hadfield stuck on the GAG line in my opinion is simply that the Rangers didn't have any better options for somebody who could dig the puck out for Ratelle and Gilbert.

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04-17-2011, 01:50 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Jean Ratelle didn't really develop until around 1967 - he was quite old for a breakout player and a lot of people were pretty skeptical at the time. At any rate, he and Gilbert started playing together fairly early, but if I remember, the GAG line wasn't actually assembled until 1968-69. Before that, the Rangers used Don Marshall with Gilbert and Ratelle and Hadfield was a lower line grinder. So I guess he played on the GAG line for 5-6 seasons.

Another issue with Hadfield is that the Rangers desperately needed a physical presence on the line (as much for fighting as puckwinning - it was the pinnacle of goon hockey), and Vic was a worse and less willing fighter than he looked. The biggest reason Hadfield stuck on the GAG line in my opinion is simply that the Rangers didn't have any better options for somebody who could dig the puck out for Ratelle and Gilbert.
Interesting. I think Hadfield belongs in the MLD.

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04-17-2011, 01:51 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
that was 6 of 20 playoff games, as well as 3 as a rover and one as a RW, so he appears to have been more of a multi-positional guy than most were.

At least in the playoffs, that is. And 16 of those 20 games were either PCHA or St-Cup with Vancouver, too.

So what's difficult about this, is that we know what he played in the playoffs, and it is an indication of what the regular seasons may have been like, but it's not conclusive. When I find game reports listing positions, they are always from his Toronto years (and he's always a center there) and very rarely regular season games from his Vancouver years.
Ah...you meant that answer. Yeah, I saw that. I still find it problematic because he always seems to be listed as a center during the regular season. I just recently found an article on the 1921-22 PCHA all-stars which lists Adams at center. We should note that this was Adams' best season in Vancouver. We should also note that Eddie Oatman apparently played one the blueline this season, which is a rather large feather in his cap considering he was picked as a 1st team all-star.

It looks to me like Adams spent basically his entire peak as a center. Playing 6 playoff games probably on the left wing is not enough to convince me that he should be used there in the ATD.

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04-17-2011, 02:04 AM
  #64
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Interesting. I think Hadfield belongs in the MLD.
If you want a physical fourth line, he's better than a lot of guys.

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04-17-2011, 02:05 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Ah...you meant that answer. Yeah, I saw that. I still find it problematic because he always seems to be listed as a center during the regular season. I just recently found an article on the 1921-22 PCHA all-stars which lists Adams at center. We should note that this was Adams' best season in Vancouver. We should also note that Eddie Oatman apparently played one the blueline this season, which is a rather large feather in his cap considering he was picked as a 1st team all-star.

It looks to me like Adams spent basically his entire peak as a center. Playing 6 playoff games probably on the left wing is not enough to convince me that he should be used there in the ATD.
- I'm aware that he was definitely an all-star at centre.

- Adams' peak was the Vancouver years, and that's when he was playing some games on the wing, at least in the playoffs.

- It would be quite the anomaly if he played LW in five of 20 playoff games, not all at the same time, either, but didn't do so at all in the regular season, wouldn't it?

- the word "probably" should be replaced with "almost certainly" when the player opposite Adams is a LW, and the other wings on his team and his opponents are known RWs.

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04-17-2011, 04:54 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
- I'm aware that he was definitely an all-star at centre.

- Adams' peak was the Vancouver years, and that's when he was playing some games on the wing, at least in the playoffs.

- It would be quite the anomaly if he played LW in five of 20 playoff games, not all at the same time, either, but didn't do so at all in the regular season, wouldn't it?

- the word "probably" should be replaced with "almost certainly" when the player opposite Adams is a LW, and the other wings on his team and his opponents are known RWs.
My best guess is that MacKay was rotated to center for certain checking matchups. Whether or not this was exclusive to the playoffs or also carried over into the regular season is unclear to me. Both scenarios seem possible.

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04-17-2011, 08:50 AM
  #67
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Interesting. I think Hadfield belongs in the MLD.
Debatable, a one-time 50 goal scorer who can win puck battles in the corner at a successful rate. Is a nice glue guy to have on any line in the ATD. Hey it worked for Ratelle and Gilbert, that line had immaculate success.

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04-17-2011, 10:33 AM
  #68
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My best guess is that MacKay was rotated to center for certain checking matchups. Whether or not this was exclusive to the playoffs or also carried over into the regular season is unclear to me. Both scenarios seem possible.
Agree, that is possible. Whether the switch was made for the purposes of matching up MacKay, or something else, it was made seemingly frequently.

Adams, for a center, was a much better scorer than playmaker, and played quite the power forward's game. So his game translates fairly well to the wing.

I'll just add that I don't necessarily consider this ideal. I only expect Adams to be an average 2nd line winger considering all factors. I do expect that voters will still prefer him over the likes of Wendel Clark, even if Wendel's playing his natural position.

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04-17-2011, 10:35 AM
  #69
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Agree, that is possible. Whether the switch was made for the purposes of matching up MacKay, or something else, it was made seemingly frequently.

Adams, for a center, was a much better scorer than playmaker, and played quite the power forward's game. So his game translates fairly well to the wing.

I'll just add that I don't necessarily consider this ideal. I only expect Adams to be an average 2nd line winger considering all factors. I do expect that voters will still prefer him over the likes of Wendel Clark, even if Wendel's playing his natural position.
I'll take Jack Adams 9 times out of 10 over Wendel Clark.

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04-17-2011, 10:54 AM
  #70
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Agree, that is possible. Whether the switch was made for the purposes of matching up MacKay, or something else, it was made seemingly frequently.

Adams, for a center, was a much better scorer than playmaker, and played quite the power forward's game. So his game translates fairly well to the wing.

I'll just add that I don't necessarily consider this ideal. I only expect Adams to be an average 2nd line winger considering all factors. I do expect that voters will still prefer him over the likes of Wendel Clark, even if Wendel's playing his natural position.
I'm just going to say that it is not a foregone conclusion that a guy can switch from C to W seamlessly, regardless of whether or not his game translates well in theory. We've all seen guys fail playing in a different position in the past.

I don't think it's an issue with Adams specifically, just that it would be best to exercise some caution.

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04-17-2011, 11:24 AM
  #71
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I'm just going to say that it is not a foregone conclusion that a guy can switch from C to W seamlessly, regardless of whether or not his game translates well in theory. We've all seen guys fail playing in a different position in the past.

I don't think it's an issue with Adams specifically, just that it would be best to exercise some caution.
I agree. I think I've at least demonstrated that with Adams it's far less problematic than it has the potential to be with some other guys, being that he did actually compete for the Stanley Cup as a winger. Doesn't mean it's ideal, unfortunately.

(if there was any tough, goalscoring winger at all I could get who I'd have been satisfied with, I'd have taken him!)

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