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Old
04-15-2011, 03:25 PM
  #26
mpp9
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When cooke comes back I'd love to see a cooke-letestu-dupuis third line. If Asham keeps playing well and we remain healthy, max may find himself in the press box. Craig Adams will never leave the 4th line, ever. Rupp has played too well recently and Byslma's in love with him. No room for maximum talbot i fear.

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04-15-2011, 03:52 PM
  #27
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I think he needs to be pointed out that he's faced a few tough injuries this year, which hasn't helped him with intrinsic streakiness of being a rookie, AHL call-up in the NHL.

I don't really know how to project players so I'm going to take any guesses as to production or anything of that sort, but he's handled this year very well and solidified his status as an NHL player. I don't think the Pens will have trouble finding him 14-17 minutes a night going forward.

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04-15-2011, 03:54 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by spcastlemagic View Post
I think he needs to be pointed out that he's faced a few tough injuries this year, which hasn't helped him with intrinsic streakiness of being a rookie, AHL call-up in the NHL.

I don't really know how to project players so I'm going to take any guesses as to production or anything of that sort, but he's handled this year very well and solidified his status as an NHL player. I don't think the Pens will have trouble finding him 14-17 minutes a night going forward.
If on the 4th line...yes. If on the 3rd line...I don't think 12-14 is out of the question

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04-15-2011, 04:07 PM
  #29
Jeff Goldblum
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
If Letestu's ideal NHL role is third-line center, then he will never supplant Staal (the best in the business, when he's actually our third-line center). So, sometimes it's best to do right by a player and give him a chance somewhere else.
Management clearly wants to try putting Malkin on the wing. Letestu makes it possible to try that without losing much down the middle. If it doesn't work out, then you find a solution to the problem. Until then though, you're trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist yet.

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Besides, Jeffrey is better than Letestu...and more versatile, it seems to me.
Based on what? Letestu is the smarter and more proven of the two. Jeffrey probably has a little more innate offensive ability, but Letestu scored at just under a 20G-20A pace as a rookie playing mostly with grinders and dealing with a couple of injuries. Letestu doesn't play wing as well as Jeffrey (not yet, at least), but Letestu is the better center for a third line role. He can play anywhere in the lineup and thus can take draws whenever the situation calls for a right-handed player to do so. As I said above, Letestu makes moving Malkin to wing possible. If it doesn't work, then you consider a trade. It'd be silly to waste an opportunity to safely experiment with the line-up though.

To be clear, I really like both players going forward. I think that Jeffrey on Letestu's wing could form an incredible third line.

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04-15-2011, 04:30 PM
  #30
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Completely agree Jeff... I'm not sure what people want out of a 3rd/4th line with a Salary Cap.

Neal Crosby Malkin
Kunitz Staal Kennedy

Cook Letestu Jeffrey
Rupp XXXX Adams

After the record, the big guns going down, etc. I don't think they'll try to find new Wingers (and Free Agency RW's are not strong)

I can see the bottom 12 shifting depending our own FA signings but I doubt they'll spend 3-4 million on Talbot and Dupuis. Maybe, Kovy takes 1.5 million to play another year but....

Also, I know everybody keeps saying Staal is the perfect 3rd line center but I'm pretty sure at 4 million, the salary cap, and the pride of playing in the top 6, the PENS can not keep him their for 2-3 more years...

LLama

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04-15-2011, 05:00 PM
  #31
Jag68Sid87
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Originally Posted by Jeff Goldblum View Post
To be clear, I really like both players going forward. I think that Jeffrey on Letestu's wing could form an incredible third line.
I don't disagree, but it's a third line we don't need because of Cooke-Staal-Kennedy.

And I've always maintained, why move the franchise center to wing and not Letestu to wing? Letestu either finds a niche on the wing, plays fourth-line C or has to move on.

Management felt the need to move Malkin to wing BEFORE the acquisition of James Neal. Also since then, some of our winger prospects have developed into good near-future and down-the-road options. Also since then, we added Kovy (who MIGHT be exactly what Geno has needed on his wing since winning the Conn Smythe), who may be willing to take a paycut to play with Geno next season.

Heading into next season, we have Kunitz, Neal, Kennedy, Cooke as four of the first six wingers on the team. We have other internal options like Jeffrey and Tangradi. We might be able to bring Kovy back. And/or we might be able to bring in someone else for a similarly cheap deal. And/or bringing back one of Talbot or Dupuis to play wing remains an option.

Do you really think management still thinks we have to move Geno out of position? Is Mark Letestu so good that we have to move one of the top 5 centers in the game? This has gone from necessity to absolutely unnecessary.

Which is why I suggest Letestu might be best off somewhere else.

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04-15-2011, 05:02 PM
  #32
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Also, I know everybody keeps saying Staal is the perfect 3rd line center but I'm pretty sure at 4 million, the salary cap, and the pride of playing in the top 6, the PENS can not keep him their for 2-3 more years...
He plays 20 minutes a night, regardless of third-line status. He's the third-most important forward regardless of third-line status. It's a non-issue.

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04-15-2011, 06:01 PM
  #33
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Has anyone else noticed that regardless of who our 3rd line has been, they have looked quite good?

The "you need Cooke-Staal-Kennedy line to have a great 3rd line" argument is just pure bunk.

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04-15-2011, 07:19 PM
  #34
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Testy is not someone that you bring to war on your top scoring line in the playoffs.

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04-15-2011, 08:13 PM
  #35
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No. He's not a top 6'er, IMO, but when he is put in a position where he can succeed (i.e. a secondary scoring role), you're not going to find many better. I definitely think he can be a 20-20 guy on the 3rd line next season, and has some ability to make guys around him better.

I really like him as a player, and he's dirt cheap for the next couple years.

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04-15-2011, 09:17 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
No. He's not a top 6'er, IMO, but when he is put in a position where he can succeed (i.e. a secondary scoring role), you're not going to find many better. I definitely think he can be a 20-20 guy on the 3rd line next season, and has some ability to make guys around him better.

I really like him as a player, and he's dirt cheap for the next couple years.
i agree he is a good value 3rd line player, but he is being asked to play above his head at the moment.

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04-15-2011, 10:14 PM
  #37
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For whatever reason, I think as he rounds out his game he could become a lot like a Manny Malhotra or Eric Belanger type of 3rd line C. 30-35 points, very good defense and forechecking, PK and faceoff abilities, and enough talent to occasionally have one of those games that makes you think they're more explosive than they really are. Which isn't to say they're not talented, but sometimes they surprise you and play way above their head for a few games when you need them to.

Maybe Letestu has a bit better offensive upside, but probably not by all that much really. More to the point, I think Letestu as he matures will become even more comfortable with defensive aspects of the game, and with a bit of an improvement on his faceoffs he could be the sort of ideal 3rd line C that would allow Staal to move up permanently.

I think 40 points is about his max, not just in terms of "on this team," but probably in general. But he's a very promising NHL player who can do a lot for a team.

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04-16-2011, 09:17 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
Has anyone else noticed that regardless of who our 3rd line has been, they have looked quite good?

The "you need Cooke-Staal-Kennedy line to have a great 3rd line" argument is just pure bunk.
When has that ever been the argument? The argument is the Cooke-Staal-Kennedy line (or now with Kunitz replacing Cooke) is the best third line in the NHL. So, if you want to have the best third line, then we already have it. Combine that with the best No. 1 center and best No. 2 center in the game, when healthy of course, I still fail to see why we wouldn't want this as the model and recipe for success next season. ESPECIALLY when we have winger options now.

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04-16-2011, 09:21 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Fraction Jackson View Post
For whatever reason, I think as he rounds out his game he could become a lot like a Manny Malhotra or Eric Belanger type of 3rd line C. 30-35 points, very good defense and forechecking, PK and faceoff abilities, and enough talent to occasionally have one of those games that makes you think they're more explosive than they really are. Which isn't to say they're not talented, but sometimes they surprise you and play way above their head for a few games when you need them to.

Maybe Letestu has a bit better offensive upside, but probably not by all that much really. More to the point, I think Letestu as he matures will become even more comfortable with defensive aspects of the game, and with a bit of an improvement on his faceoffs he could be the sort of ideal 3rd line C that would allow Staal to move up permanently.

I think 40 points is about his max, not just in terms of "on this team," but probably in general. But he's a very promising NHL player who can do a lot for a team.
Letestu needs to become like Kyle Wellwood: a natural center who has salvaged his career this year by moving successfully to wing on a team with far better center options. The Sharks did it the right way. You keep your best centers down the middle, and move the rest to wing. Keep Thornton, Couture and Pavelski down the middle, move Marleau, Wellwood, Mitchell to wing.

For us, it should be the same deal. Keep Crosby, Malkin and Staal at center, move Jeffrey, Letestu et al to wing.

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04-16-2011, 10:28 AM
  #40
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Testy is not someone that you bring to war on your top scoring line in the playoffs.
I don't agree with that at all. He's always sound positionally, goes along the boards and into traffic areas and is strong on his skates for a player his size. He doesn't fit his linemates more than anything but would be perfect for a winger like a Gaborik, a Kessel or Hall.

His downfall is that he's slow. Some of the time he can make up for that with sense and hustle but he's not the type of player to drive into the offensive zone. He needs his wingers to do that for him as he has to play like most centers... headman the pass and then follow up plays. IMO his sense is off the charts though and he kind of reminds me of an older Igor Larionov.

I would actually like to see...

Kunitz-Staal-TK
Neal-Talbot-Kovy
Dupuis-Letestu-Conner

I'm sure that I'll take some flak for putting Talbot on a scoring line but Neal and Kovy need that player that can drive up ice. Talbot does that and can do some of the dirty work for them along the offensive end boards. He also has some sense to his game and can support his wingers when they get the puck to the wall and lure players to them.

With Testy, he gets fast, active wingers that can bring plays up ice for him. I actually like the idea of him trailing plays in the offensive zone. He's really sneaky around the high slot and seems to be one of the only Pens to know that being on top of the goalie isn't always the best net presence.


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04-16-2011, 11:05 AM
  #41
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I don't agree with that at all. He's always sound positionally, goes along the boards and into traffic areas and is strong on his skates for a player his size. He doesn't fit his linemates more than anything but would be perfect for a winger like a Gaborik, a Kessel or Hall.

His downfall is that he's slow. Some of the time he can make up for that with sense and hustle but he's not the type of player to drive into the offensive zone. He needs his wingers to do that for him as he has to play like most centers... headman the pass and then follow up plays. IMO his sense is off the charts though and he kind of reminds me of an older Igor Larionov.

I would actually like to see...

Kunitz-Staal-TK
Neal-Talbot-Kovy
Dupuis-Letestu-Conner

I'm sure that I'll take some flak for putting Talbot on a scoring line but Neal and Kovy need that player that can drive up ice. Talbot does that and can do some of the dirty work for them along the offensive end boards. He also has some sense to his game and can support his wingers when they get the puck to the wall and lure players to them.

With Testy, he gets fast, active wingers that can bring plays up ice for him. I actually like the idea of him trailing plays in the offensive zone. He's really sneaky around the high slot and seems to be one of the only Pens to know that being on top of the goalie isn't always the best net presence.
So you are saying he is in fact an impact first line center? Then you have him listed as the 3rd line center on your lines?

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04-16-2011, 11:15 AM
  #42
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Decent, solid player. Unfortunately, I have no idea where he fits with this org. going forward.

Maybe the best thing for Letestu (and for the Pens) is to deal him in the off-season for a draft pick or prospect. I mean, even IF Geno can't start the season, we should still be OK at center with Crosby, Staal, Jeffrey (who would move to wing when Geno returns) and either a re-signed fourth line C like Adams or rookie Vitale. Then there's also the emerging presence of Veilleux.

I just don't know where Letestu fits.
You're assuming that the Pens will play Malkin at wing.

Now, for someone like you or me (someone who has seen how Jordan Staal has performed in an enhanced role as a playmaker and distributor of the puck as the pivot in the Pens transition game), this may seem insane.

For someone like you or me, the idea of resigning Kovy and Dupuis on the cheap and going into next year with Kunitz-Sid-Dupuis (or one of the kids if they can supplant Dupuis . . . either way, Kunitz-Sid-Dupuis was the best line in hockey because of Sid with a major assist to Kunitz), Neal-Malkin-Kovalev (the makings of Malone-Malkin-Sykora 2.0, i.e., one of the best second lines in hockey), and Cooke-Staal-TK (the quote "best third line in hockey") might seem like a logical and cap feasible way to return to create lines with the necessary winger depth to return to the three center model that was the basis for the Pens overwhelming the East in the playoffs for two years.

But, I still think the coaching staff (not to mention a lot of people here) see it differently.

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04-16-2011, 11:16 AM
  #43
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So you are saying he is in fact an impact first line center? Then you have him listed as the 3rd line center on your lines?
An impact first line center? No not at all. I do think he's a quality player but just doesn't fit what Neal-Kovy do. If the Pens had a winger that can skate plays over the blue line, bring plays up ice and drive back defenses then I wouldn't mind seeing Letestu play first line mins.

Its more about getting the right mix than saying one players a first line guy and this is a checking line player.

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04-16-2011, 11:19 AM
  #44
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Completely agree Jeff... I'm not sure what people want out of a 3rd/4th line with a Salary Cap.

Neal Crosby Malkin
Kunitz Staal Kennedy

Cook Letestu Jeffrey
Rupp XXXX Adams

After the record, the big guns going down, etc. I don't think they'll try to find new Wingers (and Free Agency RW's are not strong)

I can see the bottom 12 shifting depending our own FA signings but I doubt they'll spend 3-4 million on Talbot and Dupuis. Maybe, Kovy takes 1.5 million to play another year but....

Also, I know everybody keeps saying Staal is the perfect 3rd line center but I'm pretty sure at 4 million, the salary cap, and the pride of playing in the top 6, the PENS can not keep him their for 2-3 more years...

LLama
Cooke-Staal-Kennedy would work as a third line for me. Seemed to work pretty well for the Pens two during a cup run. And, with the Neal trade and the availability of Kovy on the cheap (yes, I know, there will be ulcer moments), it's feasible next year.

As for Testy, he should be the fourth line guy who, for cap reasons, is going to replace Max when someone gives him a deal in the high 1M range.

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04-16-2011, 11:21 AM
  #45
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An impact first line center? No not at all. I do think he's a quality player but just doesn't fit what Neal-Kovy do. If the Pens had a winger that can skate plays over the blue line, bring plays up ice and drive back defenses then I wouldn't mind seeing Letestu play first line mins.

Its more about getting the right mix than saying one players a first line guy and this is a checking line player.
Posted this in reply to your question on the post-game thread. He's got some chemistry with Kovy OR Neal. Neal and Kovy have chemistry together. BUT, he's the wrong center for those two in a situation where, unfortunately, the best alternatives are not available.

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04-16-2011, 11:49 AM
  #46
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Cooke-Staal-Kennedy would work as a third line for me. Seemed to work pretty well for the Pens two during a cup run. And, with the Neal trade and the availability of Kovy on the cheap (yes, I know, there will be ulcer moments), it's feasible next year.

As for Testy, he should be the fourth line guy who, for cap reasons, is going to replace Max when someone gives him a deal in the high 1M range.
Anyone we have put on the 3rd line has worked well. It has been kind of funny. The Buzz line was being called one of the best 3rd lines in hockey. Our 3rd line now has been working well. I don't believe it has to be Cooke-Staal-Kennedy to be a good line. All it needs are some guys who can create some offense. Letestu and Jeffrey can do that.

Not mentioning, both Staal and Kennedy could use bigger minutes. If given those bigger mins, you can squeeze more out of them, which we are seeing. Both Staal and Kennedy are maxed out on the 3rd line as to what they can put up. If you replace them with Letestu and Jeffrey, I'd think you would see very similar results, except you aren't pigeonholing 4 good hockey players. Staal and Kennedy get their top 6 mins, Letestu and Jeffrey get their 3rd line mins.

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04-16-2011, 12:02 PM
  #47
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Anyone we have put on the 3rd line has worked well. It has been kind of funny. The Buzz line was being called one of the best 3rd lines in hockey. Our 3rd line now has been working well. I don't believe it has to be Cooke-Staal-Kennedy to be a good line. All it needs are some guys who can create some offense. Letestu and Jeffrey can do that.

Not mentioning, both Staal and Kennedy could use bigger minutes. If given those bigger mins, you can squeeze more out of them, which we are seeing. Both Staal and Kennedy are maxed out on the 3rd line as to what they can put up. If you replace them with Letestu and Jeffrey, I'd think you would see very similar results, except you aren't pigeonholing 4 good hockey players. Staal and Kennedy get their top 6 mins, Letestu and Jeffrey get their 3rd line mins.
You know, I'm not even going to disagree with what you're saying about Staal and TK, because I don't. At the same time, I don't see how Geno works on Staal's wing. Don't get me wrong. They'll both be better for it. But, if you're going to play Geno on the wing, then make the top two lines Neal-Sid-Geno and Kunitz-Staal-TK (just not sure if putting Geno on Sid's wing is any less counter-productive given their disparate styles.

That said, on a greater level, what exactly should be the primary consideration of whether you run or abdicate the three center model full time? If the primary consideration is "Staal and TK are maxed out in a third line role when Sid and Geno are on lines one and two respectively", then I completely get an agree with the argument. If the primary consideration is a generic "Staal deserves better", then I even get that. Side Note: It's not as if you couldn't play Staal 20 minutes a night as the quote third line center, just like the Pens did on a lot of nights during the cup run.

On the other hand, if the primary consideration is winning playoff series, then it's the three center model for me. You can stop one. You might stop two. BUT, since their first year together, name one team, outside of Detroit in the 2007-2008 finals, that has stopped all three in a seven games series.

For me, it's not about who deserves what or who could play where. It's about (a) whether the three center model makes for a better top three lines collectively than moving Malkin to wing and having Letestu center L3 and (b) whether the Pens have the minimum amount of talent on the wings necessary to make the three center model work.

This year, they didn't. Next year, they could. And, in that event, until I see some pretty compelling evidence as to why the three center model isn't the best option for the playoffs, I'm going to look at the 2007-2008 and 2008-2009 runs as pretty overwhelming evidence of how the three center model works when you have enough on the wings.

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04-16-2011, 01:21 PM
  #48
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How is it not the 3 center model with Letestu?

If he can be good for 15-20 and 35-40 points, you're not giving up that much, especially if Staal and Kennedy can significantly increase their point totals, which I think they can.

If you want to look at the Cup run, you'd see compelling evidence of Geno playing wing and doing very well switching up responsibilities with he and Talbot.

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04-16-2011, 01:46 PM
  #49
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He's kind of one of those guys that would be a top two line center on a really bad team or a bottom-6 utility guy on a contender. He's not your typical utility guy, he doesn't hit or kill penalties (though he might play PK in the future), but he still contributes. It helps that he's good on face-offs and a right-handed shot.

I'm not really his biggest supporter, but if used properly, he can help any team win. He's kind of like Erik Christensen but with better character.

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04-16-2011, 01:56 PM
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I see a parallel to Dominic Moore. Letestu has the same stretches Moore has had where you stop and wonder...is there more to this guy than what we normally see? Moore does the same thing.

Like Jacob said, on a bad team, I could see him putting up good numbers, but if on a contending team, he's a bottom 6'er.

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