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Old
04-19-2011, 12:45 PM
  #1
Luck 6
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Which roster?

Obviously it's easy to look at things in hindsight and say "we made a mistake". With our Vancouver team, trading Grabner was essentially a slap in the face. No diss on Ballard, but Schroeder would have clearly been the better prospect to let go.

So then, what about you guys? What with all the trades that occured last season, would you rather have the line-up you have now, or one similar to the one below? Also what must be factored in is the prospects that were received for the traded players. Ya, maybe THIS year the Hawks are kind of thin, but 2-3 years from now some of those prospects may be stepping into the line-up on their ELCs while some of the guys from last season who left might be looking for raises.

Obviously to keep those guys, you'd likely have to let a guy like Kane go.

Ladd(2.35)-Toews(6.3)-Hossa(5.233)
???-Sharp(3.9)-Versteeg(3.083)
Stalberg(0.85)-Bolland(3.375)-Byfuglien(3)
Eager(0.965)-Burish(1.15)-Brouwer(1.025)

Keith(5.55)-Seabrook(3.75)
Campbell(7.14)-Hjalmarsson(3.5)
???-Leddy(0.9)

Crawford(0.85)
Turco(1.3)

That line-up is worth 54.22mil with a top 6 forward spot to fill and ideally another top 4 capable defenseman. By trading Kane, you could have easily brough in quality, cheap players to fill those voids.

So what do you think? In hindsight, what would you have done?

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04-19-2011, 12:52 PM
  #2
DayNah
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Kane is going no where for the next while. No one wants to get rid of him and even if we did he's got a NMC.

I'm hoping something can be done about the Brian Campbell contract. That's the real killer on the roster. Great d-man, but not worth the spot of 2 great guys. Hoping Bowman can figure out Tallon's mess this summer and we can have a contender next year.

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04-19-2011, 12:53 PM
  #3
Blackhawkswincup
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
Obviously it's easy to look at things in hindsight and say "we made a mistake". With our Vancouver team, trading Grabner was essentially a slap in the face. No diss on Ballard, but Schroeder would have clearly been the better prospect to let go.

So then, what about you guys? What with all the trades that occured last season, would you rather have the line-up you have now, or one similar to the one below? Also what must be factored in is the prospects that were received for the traded players. Ya, maybe THIS year the Hawks are kind of thin, but 2-3 years from now some of those prospects may be stepping into the line-up on their ELCs while some of the guys from last season who left might be looking for raises.

Obviously to keep those guys, you'd likely have to let a guy like Kane go.

Ladd(2.35)-Toews(6.3)-Hossa(5.233)
???-Sharp(3.9)-Versteeg(3.083)
Stalberg(0.85)-Bolland(3.375)-Byfuglien(3)
Eager(0.965)-Burish(1.15)-Brouwer(1.025)

Keith(5.55)-Seabrook(3.75)
Campbell(7.14)-Hjalmarsson(3.5)
???-Leddy(0.9)

Crawford(0.85)
Turco(1.3)

That line-up is worth 54.22mil with a top 6 forward spot to fill and ideally another top 4 capable defenseman. By trading Kane, you could have easily brough in quality, cheap players to fill those voids.

So what do you think? In hindsight, what would you have done?
1st off , Trade Kane =



2nd problem is that we were limited by bonus's so your roster would further need drastic cut or 2 to fill final 2 spots and leave room for injuries

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Old
04-19-2011, 12:54 PM
  #4
HockeySensible
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Who else is missing? Kane alone doesn't make up for Ladd, Versteeg, and Buff's contracts.

In either case, no, obviously. Any Hawk fan that says yes doesn't understand Kane's importance.

Would you trade H.Sedin so you could keep Torres, Raymond and a few 4th liners?

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Old
04-19-2011, 01:02 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
Obviously it's easy to look at things in hindsight and say "we made a mistake". With our Vancouver team, trading Grabner was essentially a slap in the face. No diss on Ballard, but Schroeder would have clearly been the better prospect to let go.

So then, what about you guys? What with all the trades that occured last season, would you rather have the line-up you have now, or one similar to the one below? Also what must be factored in is the prospects that were received for the traded players. Ya, maybe THIS year the Hawks are kind of thin, but 2-3 years from now some of those prospects may be stepping into the line-up on their ELCs while some of the guys from last season who left might be looking for raises.

Obviously to keep those guys, you'd likely have to let a guy like Kane go.

Ladd(2.35)-Toews(6.3)-Hossa(5.233)
???-Sharp(3.9)-Versteeg(3.083)
Stalberg(0.85)-Bolland(3.375)-Byfuglien(3)
Eager(0.965)-Burish(1.15)-Brouwer(1.025)

Keith(5.55)-Seabrook(3.75)
Campbell(7.14)-Hjalmarsson(3.5)
???-Leddy(0.9)

Crawford(0.85)
Turco(1.3)

That line-up is worth 54.22mil with a top 6 forward spot to fill and ideally another top 4 capable defenseman. By trading Kane, you could have easily brough in quality, cheap players to fill those voids.

So what do you think? In hindsight, what would you have done?
That lineup doesn't work because the Hawks are already at their cap there without a top 6 forward or a 6th defenseman and its only a 20 man roster. They'd have to dump 1 or 2 more of those guys. On top of that Buff would be a UFA and they couldn't afford it and they couldnt have afford to extend Seabrook.

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Old
04-19-2011, 01:04 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
Who else is missing? Kane alone doesn't make up for Ladd, Versteeg, and Buff's contracts.

In either case, no, obviously. Any Hawk fan that says yes doesn't understand Kane's importance.

Would you trade H.Sedin so you could keep Torres, Raymond and a few 4th liners?
But Toews is clearly so much better than Kane, what's the point in wasting money on Kane?

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04-19-2011, 01:06 PM
  #7
Luck 6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
Who else is missing? Kane alone doesn't make up for Ladd, Versteeg, and Buff's contracts.

In either case, no, obviously. Any Hawk fan that says yes doesn't understand Kane's importance.

Would you trade H.Sedin so you could keep Torres, Raymond and a few 4th liners?
A bit different... Ladd, Byfuglien, and Versteeg are better than guys like Raymond and Torres by a fair margin. Plus, you guys still have high end talent in Sharp, Toews, and Hossa which is more than most teams could say.

So the general consensus in Hawk land then is the right moves were made, and this offseason something needs to be done about Campbell? My only "beef" with that is you HAVE to assume they tried to move the Campbell contract last summer before moving out all this depth, there were no takers. I don't forsee this season being any different. Do you think there's a chance Campbell gets waived ala Wade Redden?

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04-19-2011, 01:06 PM
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For the record, there would be no Stalberg with Versteeg, they were part+parcel of the same trade.

In truth, I am of the opinion that pricing the past is irrelevant, b/c we don't know what these guys wanted from CHI to stay here. Could have been even more then they got elsewhere, so to quantify things of historical data is easy without knowing the context of what it would take to resign them HERE.

IMO, to truly answer your question, I think Kane<Toews>Sharp can be one of the best lines in the NHL, Hossa gets traded 1st b/c of his lack of ability to really find a chemistry groove here, or I invest some picks and prospects in the trading of Campbell. I for one, do not like out blend of Dmen. I do not hate the players themselves, just our blend is not edgy enough on the back end. Look where we're at with Seabs out tonite. Kane would also not be traded b/c he is one of the duo that brought the franchise back from the dead both on and off the ice. He is worth as much as he is paid to the team+mgmt, that, and more. He put points on the ice, and butts in the seats.

Anyway, I'm rambling a bit, but no, Kane goes nowhere at the end of last year, period.

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Old
04-19-2011, 01:10 PM
  #9
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A simple reality is that we were forced to purge our roster a summer early due to cap bonus's and Campbell contract

Buff and Ladd would not have been affordable longterm

So even if we moved a big salary guy both Ladd/Buff would have been unaffordable this summer

So we would have lost more in reality

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04-19-2011, 01:14 PM
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Rob Zepp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
Who else is missing? Kane alone doesn't make up for Ladd, Versteeg, and Buff's contracts.

In either case, no, obviously. Any Hawk fan that says yes doesn't understand Kane's importance.

Would you trade H.Sedin so you could keep Torres, Raymond and a few 4th liners?
Kane is an Art Ross/Hart winner with more than 200 points over past two seasons?

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04-19-2011, 01:20 PM
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HockeySensible
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Originally Posted by Rob Zepp View Post
Kane is an Art Ross/Hart winner with more than 200 points over past two seasons?
What was H.Sedin doing at 22?


....




....






.......







That's right. Not very much.

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04-19-2011, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob Zepp View Post
Kane is an Art Ross/Hart winner with more than 200 points over past two seasons?
Kane is also about 8 years younger.

Or how about, Sedin has showed up in the second round of the playoffs?

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04-19-2011, 01:24 PM
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I think the way contracts were setup and all, the Hawks were kind of doomed for thsi season regardless of how they purged the salary. It is what it is. They got too soft as it turned out. If they had gone a different route maybe they would have had too much trouble scoring or controlling the puck. Woulda, coulda, shoulda...

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04-19-2011, 01:31 PM
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Rob Zepp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
What was H.Sedin doing at 22?


....




....






.......







That's right. Not very much.
He was growing as a player at clearly a different rate than many. Lidstrom didn't win a Norris until he was after 30....Thomas same with Vezina. Other players come on first few years in 19-22 range and look like superstars in making and fade into oblivion.

The age argument is a very poor one as for every example of someone getting progressively better, there are plateau and regression examples galore.

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04-19-2011, 01:35 PM
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I take the guy that has scored the Cup Winner with the Calder trophy over this Swede with his 23622x Assist and Ross Trophy any day.

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04-19-2011, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob Zepp View Post
He was growing as a player at clearly a different rate than many. Lidstrom didn't win a Norris until he was after 30....Thomas same with Vezina. Other players come on first few years in 19-22 range and look like superstars in making and fade into oblivion.

The age argument is a very poor one as for every example of someone getting progressively better, there are plateau and regression examples galore.
I guess Kane has stopped growing as a player then? He can't possibly get better. The Sedin's are the exception and Kane is the rule. A player has hit their peak at 22. If you're somehow insinuating that Kane will fade away, or drop off from his current production then, I'm sorry to say, you're crazy. He's not a flash in the pants, he's not a player who got a chance with great players and was made to look good. Kane stirs the offensive drink, he's not a by-product of anyone else.

Lidstrom didn't suddenly become a great player at 30, he was competing with fewer great players and got more recognition. He was a great player before 30, even if the awards weren't there.

Looking at Awards in an attempt to judge a players worth/skill/talent/ability is flawed. D.Sedin won the Art Ross this year, he may win the Hart, but he wasn't the best player in the NHL this season, that player was sitting at home recovering from a concussion.

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04-19-2011, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
I take the guy that has scored the Cup Winner with the Calder trophy over this Swede with his 23622x Assist and Ross Trophy any day.
You go with whatever makes you feel best as this all seems very important to you.

Simply trying to point out that projections are just that, actual performance is tangible. Cannot have much success with just intangibles.

Cheers!

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04-19-2011, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob Zepp View Post
You go with whatever makes you feel best as this all seems very important to you.

Simply trying to point out that projections are just that, actual performance is tangible. Cannot have much success with just intangibles.

Cheers!
So true, so again, I'll take the guy who excells in the biggest of games vs. the guy who fades away when his team needs him most.

Cheers!

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04-19-2011, 01:53 PM
  #19
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Hawks with Toews and Kane - 1 Cup
Nucks with Sedin - not even made the SC Finals

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04-19-2011, 01:54 PM
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Kane helped win Chicago a Stanley Cup...Henrik won himself an art ross...both good but as a fan and rather my team win a championship and have a parade, instead of cheering at the nhl awards.

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04-19-2011, 01:57 PM
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HockeySensible
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Hawks with Toews and Kane - 1 Cup
Nucks with Sedin - not even made the SC Finals
The SC finals? They've never even been out of the 2nd round.

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04-19-2011, 02:01 PM
  #22
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yep, I know. But man are these Ross Trophys great

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Old
04-19-2011, 02:02 PM
  #23
HockeySensible
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Here's some interesting stats.

Henrik Sedin stats:

Olympic Games - GP 12, G 3, A 3
NHL Playoffs - GP 68, G 17, A 31

Patrick Kane stats:

Olympic Games - GP 6, G 3, A 2
NHL Playoffs - GP 41, G 19, A 25

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