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ATD 2011 Draft Thread XI - The Aftermath

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Old
04-27-2011, 05:32 AM
  #451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
No love for Benedict? Interesting.

I read an article that I can no longer find that said, in short terms, "the only reason Benedict isn't perfect is because he is human". It wasn't as hyperbolic as that, but it does convey the level of praise this article had for Benedict. The article said that Benedict essentially had no help at all defensively during his time with the Maroons.
There is a ton of source material which praises Benedict's play. I do not believe, at all, that he was a product of the Ottawa system. His (and Lehman's) placement below Percy Lesueur is another example of why we have to take the cross-generational comparisons in the list with a heavy grain of salt.

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04-27-2011, 06:15 AM
  #452
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Let's be honest: the old-timers are pretty well overrepresented here.
Really?

Half of the players listed were still playing when this article came out. A handful of others had just finished playing a couple years earlier. Another handful were currently coaching. Only a few retired prior to 1920 and were not still involved in the game.

Hod Stuart's career ended in 1907, and he is the "oldest" player named on the teams. He is one of only 5 players who had been retired for 10 or more years.

Stuart's career started in 1898-99, which makes him the first to start playing (along with Bowie). Not a single player named played a game in the first 12 years of organized amateur hockey.


Here's how the list breaks down in terms of when the player retired:
1907
1909
1910
1912
1914
1916
1917 (currently coaching)
1922 (currently coaching)
1923
1923 (currently coaching)
current
current
current
current
current
current
current
current
current
current


Last edited by Dreakmur: 04-27-2011 at 06:23 AM.
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Old
04-27-2011, 06:31 AM
  #453
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Really?
Yes really. Unless you want to take up the argument that Scotty Davidson was seriously the best right wing of all-time as of 1925 or that Percy Lesueur was better than Clint Benedict, I suggest you don't dry hump Hod Stuart's ranking here too much. Contemporary players are universally underrated relative to their historical importance, then as now.

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04-27-2011, 06:35 AM
  #454
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Contemporary players are universally underrated relative to their historical importance, then as now.
By whom? Mainstream media and casual fans actually grossly overrate active players.

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04-27-2011, 06:43 AM
  #455
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For the record, I made a quick comment that Gerard could be ranked closer to Rod Langway and Serge Savard in an assassination. I meant more in his ranking as a very high end #2 than style, though I do think of Gerard as more defensive than offensive.

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04-27-2011, 06:49 AM
  #456
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
By whom? Mainstream media and casual fans actually grossly overrate active players.
Relative to hockey history? I'm not sure I agree with that statement. The THN top-100 project is probably the best modern comparable to what MacLeans did in 1925, and I don't think there was a discernable modern bias in that document. I would say there was more O6 bias than anything else in THN's list, which is not surprising, as the oldest and most respected of the pundits who put together that list came up as reporters during the O6 era, just as the oldest of the reporters in 1925 were watching hockey during Stuart and Bowie's primes.

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04-27-2011, 07:18 AM
  #457
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Yes really. Unless you want to take up the argument that Scotty Davidson was seriously the best right wing of all-time as of 1925 or that Percy Lesueur was better than Clint Benedict, I suggest you don't dry hump Hod Stuart's ranking here too much. Contemporary players are universally underrated relative to their historical importance, then as now.
Not every list is going to follow your own opinion 100%. That doesn't mean it is biased.

I don't agree with the entire list, but, again, that doesn't mean there's a bias in it. Maybe they're wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you're wrong.

The numbers show there is no bias towards older players. In fact, they show there is a bias towards modern players.

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04-27-2011, 07:37 AM
  #458
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
There is a ton of source material which praises Benedict's play. I do not believe, at all, that he was a product of the Ottawa system. His (and Lehman's) placement below Percy Lesueur is another example of why we have to take the cross-generational comparisons in the list with a heavy grain of salt.
I am beginning to believe that Benedict's "Hasek-like statistical dominance over his peers" was largely a product of the team; though not entirely, as part of the case was how much better Ottawa did with Benedict in the lineup.

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04-27-2011, 07:38 AM
  #459
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
The numbers show there is no bias towards older players. In fact, they show there is a bias towards modern players.
Heh. You are fumbling around with history like a pubescent boy trying to unhook a bra. Your "numbers" only show that there was a modern bias circa 1925 if you believe that the elder generation of hockey players was equal in size and quality to the then current generation, which is so obviously not the case that it doesn't warrant discussion.

This document is a perfect example of why one must be careful when dealing with historical source material. History is always biased, and insofar as bias is discernable, it should be identified and underlined. That the document is extremely eastern biased is beyond doubt. It's rather hard to insulate a document from accusations of one type of bias while acknowledging another...or do you think Cyclone Taylor was the third best left wing of all-time as of 1925?

It's a biased document, plain and simple. We know that it is eastern biased - hell, the western paper that printed it implied as much. We have strong reason to believe it is old-time biased. As a group, we need to learn to start dealing with historical documents in a nuanced way - seeing them as pieces of a puzzle, rather than jumping on them and waving them around like flags whenever they serve to aggrandize one of our players. The ATD has been moving in the wrong direction in this regard for some time, and the current abundance of information available to us makes the need for sobriety all the more critical. We can do this like historians, or like lawyers. Either way, history will judge us.

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04-27-2011, 08:02 AM
  #460
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Ok. I had actually already read those profiles, but given Devil's comments earlier, I had thought there was more. I will need a day or so to pull together all the contemporary articles I have which describe Gerard's play, but I think I can shed considerably more light on the subject than has been provided thus far. Eddie Gerard was definitely not, as Devil described him, anything close to an old-time Rod Langway stylistically. I'll post what I have in the Dirt thread.

I have to say...I find the information posted on Gerard thus far rather disappointing. The "I've been reading..." comments from pitseleh and Dark Shadows in nik jr's profile are complete throwaways, and the all-time picks from Red Dutton and Shorty Green are extremely suspect considering that neither man played either with or against Gerard during their careers, but both were managed by Gerard in Montreal. Dutton, in particular, dedicated his entire "all-star team" project to Gerard, which smacks of extreme bias. Foster Hewitt's testimony in 1961 is of somewhat more value, though he is not old enough to have any real knowledge of pre-NHL hockey. At any rate, as a starter, here are the results of the MacLean's Magazine 1925 "All-Star, All-Time, Canadian Hockey Team" project.

The date of this document and the fact that it represents the composite opinion of hockey experts "throughout the Dominion" makes it of considerably more value than much later choices made by people who could not have possibly seen enough hockey to make an informed all-time list. It is an interesting document, though I think demonstrates a rather strong eastern bias - the complete exclusion of Moose Johnson and the placement of Cyclone Taylor as third team left wing being the notable head-scratchers. There also seems to be some bias in favor of old-time players, but at any rate, it remains the best comparison I have seen on all-time players up to that point.

One other comment: it was almost certainly not the shoulder injury which ended Gerard's career, but a severe throat infection sometime later in 1923. I'll post that information along with everything I have when I have time.
I figured you had read the profiles, but that's basically all there was.

Some other things I read about Gerard (off-ice stuff, so I didn't put it in his profile).

As you probably know, he was a football star. He had been pursued by the Ottawa hockey club for some time before they signed him for a substantial sum. He retired as a football player and coached instead (this was at the beginning of his hockey career, 1914 or 1915).

He played his first hockey game with Ottawa at centre. He moved to LW within the next year, I don't know why he didn't stick at C.

In terms of his style of play, he had a reputation as a clean, sportsmanlike player, but he was also hard-hitting.

It was definitely the throat problem that ended his career. Swelling in his throat caused him to have difficulty breathing, and his doctor told him he had to retire. There was speculation that was the same thing that later killed him, which seems plausible.

He was in demand as a hockey coach as soon as he retired.

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04-27-2011, 08:08 AM
  #461
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I am beginning to believe that Benedict's "Hasek-like statistical dominance over his peers" was largely a product of the team; though not entirely, as part of the case was how much better Ottawa did with Benedict in the lineup.
There is no doubt in my mind that the GAA differences are heavily influenced by the respective teams. The old ATD argument which centered around Benedict's GAA as evidence of his dominance is of very little value. I have been suspicious of those numbers for a long time and honestly expected to find, when digging into source documents from the period, that Benedict was mostly a product of Ottawa's system, but that does not seem to be the case. He was legitimately a great goalie in his own right.

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04-27-2011, 08:09 AM
  #462
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Relative to hockey history? I'm not sure I agree with that statement. The THN top-100 project is probably the best modern comparable to what MacLeans did in 1925, and I don't think there was a discernable modern bias in that document. I would say there was more O6 bias than anything else in THN's list, which is not surprising, as the oldest and most respected of the pundits who put together that list came up as reporters during the O6 era, just as the oldest of the reporters in 1925 were watching hockey during Stuart and Bowie's primes.
You're talking about one specific case, but the average hockey journalists/broadcasters/TV personas and fan masses are a completely different matter. There's a very strong presence of Bilrosian school of thought, and the level to which some active players get overrated (even in the ATD!) simply boggles the mind. Just go to the HOH section, there's a great display of the absurd overratedness of active players going on in the Crosby vs. Clarke thread.

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04-27-2011, 08:17 AM
  #463
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It's a biased document, plain and simple. We know that it is eastern biased - hell, the western paper that printed it implied as much. We have strong reason to believe it is old-time biased.
Yes, the western paper pointed out that it was biased against the west. That's proof enough for me

You beleive it is biased. That doesn't make it so.

You don't even know who the voters were, so how can you possibly assume you know what their bias is?

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04-27-2011, 08:22 AM
  #464
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seventies! release the votes!

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04-27-2011, 08:23 AM
  #465
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Just go to the HOH section, there's a great display of the absurd overratedness of active players going on in the Crosby vs. Clarke thread.
These are not, however, the kind of people who are asked by respected magazines to put together their all-time lists.

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04-27-2011, 08:34 AM
  #466
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
You're talking about one specific case, but the average hockey journalists/broadcasters/TV personas and fan masses are a completely different matter. There's a very strong presence of Bilrosian school of thought, and the level to which some active players get overrated (even in the ATD!) simply boggles the mind. Just go to the HOH section, there's a great display of the absurd overratedness of active players going on in the Crosby vs. Clarke thread.
That thread is pretty unique to Clarke though because most of he comments against him are really resentment for how dirty he was.

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04-27-2011, 08:35 AM
  #467
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Yes, the western paper pointed out that it was biased against the west. That's proof enough for me.

You beleive it is biased. That doesn't make it so.
The "know nothing" argument - one of GBC's favorite old saws. Nothing in history can be proven, dreak, but imperfect knowledge does not prevent us from moving forward in a rational way. That I can't prove a bias precisely doesn't change in any way the fact that we have very strong reason to believe that one existed.

Quote:
You don't even know who the voters were, so how can you possibly assume you know what their bias is?
I know how the hockey world turned circa 1925. That the mass of hockey fans and pundits were clustered around Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal is beyond doubt. The bias here is not hard to discern.

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04-27-2011, 08:53 AM
  #468
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
The "know nothing" argument - one of GBC's favorite old saws. Nothing in history can be proven, dreak, but imperfect knowledge does not prevent us from moving forward in a rational way. That I can't prove a bias precisely doesn't change in any way the fact that we have very strong reason to believe that one existed.
Your reason to beleive there is a bias is what? Their list isn't the same as yours?

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I know how the hockey world turned circa 1925. That the mass of hockey fans and pundits were clustered around Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal is beyond doubt. The bias here is not hard to discern.
Who said they asked those people? The votes were cast from "all over the dominion", were they not?

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04-27-2011, 09:02 AM
  #469
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Your reason to beleive there is a bias is what? Their list isn't the same as yours?
No...my reason for believing that the list is biased is that specific aspects of the comparative values in it (specifically east vs west and pre-NHL vs NHL) fly in the face of the mass of accumulated knowledge on the subject.

Quote:
Who said they asked those people? The votes were cast from "all over the dominion", were they not?
Your faux naïveté is cute.

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04-27-2011, 09:28 AM
  #470
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Now that I think about it, I did say something like "was Eddie Gerard the Rod Langway of his time?". That was pretty careless of me; I knew that his offensive numbers were pretty good among other things. I still think of Gerard as more D than O, but he's definitely not a Langway.

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04-27-2011, 11:11 AM
  #471
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When are prelim votes being tallied? I can vote sometime between 3-7 but don't hold the process up becuase of me. If they're coming out before then it's no big deal.

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04-27-2011, 11:20 AM
  #472
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I'm not sure if everyone sent to both seventies and I but I only have 15ish votes so far. I'm not sure of the next step yet...

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04-27-2011, 11:44 AM
  #473
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I'm not sure if everyone sent to both seventies and I but I only have 15ish votes so far. I'm not sure of the next step yet...
You got my votes right? I don't know if Dave sent his in yet though.

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04-27-2011, 12:02 PM
  #474
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I sent my votes in. Let me know if you guys didn't get them

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04-27-2011, 12:57 PM
  #475
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juts noticed i had to vote , damn , sorry guys

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