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What % of credit does Yzerman deserve and what % does Brian Lawton deserve?

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Old
04-28-2011, 04:36 AM
  #1
JamieG
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What % of credit does Yzerman deserve and what % does Brian Lawton deserve?

This could be getting a bit ahead of things, although unless TB completely embarrasses themselves against the Caps, this season will be considered a success. But let's say TB were to win the Cup or even have a long run this year...

When Chicago won, most of the hockey world gave the majority of the credit to the previous GM - Dale Tallon. To a lesser degree, the argument rages on about how much credit Brian Burke deserved for Anaheim and how much was the previous GM - Bryan Murray.

So the question I ask is this: If TB were to have a long run this playoffs, how much of the credit does Steve Yzerman deserve and how much does Brian Lawton and the previous regime deserve?

Trust me, if the Lightning were to knock off the Caps or make it to the Finals, this will start to surface. And as a fan of the Red Wings in the late 80s and 90s, the fact that Yzerman is so frigging humble, will only lead to more of this discussion. And I could tell it was coming way back in the summer or early fall when Brian Lawton was on TSN's Off The Record program and was already campaigning that if Yzerman had success, he (Lawton) would deserve most of the credit because he left Yzerman in such a great position when Lawton got sacked.

So the question for die hard Lightning fans, objectively, how much credit does Yzeramn deserve and how much does Lawton deserve? 90% for Yzerman and 10 for Lawton? 50/50?

Anyone care to analyze the personnel in detail?

Just off the top of my head, what has Yzerman been responsible for?

Hired the coach, Boucher.

Traded for the goalie - Roloson.

Either through trade or free agency - Brought in Moore, Bergenheim, Gagne, Kubina, Brewer, Clark....

Lecavalier, St.Louis (although Yzerman re-signed him but really...), Stamkos, Hedman already in place.

So how much is Yzerman and how much is Lawton? If Tampa were to win, would it bother you if Brian Lawton went around screaming to anyone that would listen that he deserves the credit? (because if that were to happen - I am pretty certain that is exactly what would happen).

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04-28-2011, 04:45 AM
  #2
JamieG
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Personally, I would say Yzerman would deserve the majority of credit, maybe 85%.

If TB were to go far, it would probably mean Roloson would have to be the MVP as game 7 vs Pitt showed.

And hiring the right coach was huge.

I think some of the lesser moves, like the Moore and Bergenheim signings are looking pretty awesome right now.

During the season, some were saying the Gagne trade was a bust because of his regular season, but he seems to be contributing now. And Brewer has been a nice addition.

I don't believe Lawton was even around for St. Louis and Lecavalier (Feaster?)...so how far do you really go back when an organization turns the corner...

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04-28-2011, 05:02 AM
  #3
TheDaysOf 04
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One way to look at it

Players acquired by OK, LB, and BL:

Purcell - trade
Ohlund - FA signing
Stamkos- drafted
Hedman - drafted
Downie - trade
Malone - FA signing
Hall - FA signing
Thompson - waiver claim
Smith - trade


Players acquired by SFY:

Brewer - trade
Roloson - trade
Moore - FA signing
Bergenheim - FA signing
Gagne - trade
Clark - FA signing
Jones - FA signing
Kubina - FA signing
Bergeron - FA signing
Ritola - waiver claim


Players in the org. before both:

Lecavalier
St. Louis
Smaby
Lundin
Tyrell
B. Jones

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04-28-2011, 05:18 AM
  #4
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Yzermans credibility and smartness means a lot, it's a big chunk of it. At the same time it was really easy to blame and pour crap on Lawton but he made some great things, which is also part of this and is perhaps easy to forget.

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04-28-2011, 05:47 AM
  #5
JamieG
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Thanks 'Days of '04', that's what I was looking for.

I'd have a hard time giving Lawton a lot of the credit when Yzeramn brought in the coach, the goalie 2/3 of the line that is quickly establishing themselves as unsung heroes (Bergenheim and Moore) and some other key contributors right now.

I'm also reluctant to give too much credit for drafting Stamkos. When you're drafting in that position, it's pretty much a no brainer.

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04-28-2011, 07:49 AM
  #6
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I actually was a fan of Lawton and one of the few defenders of him on this board until he sabotaged both the Lightning and Admirals in an attempt to save his job with a Hail Mary in firing Walz and bringing up Johnson.

That being said I don't give Lawton much credit at all. Stamkos and Hedman were no brainers and every GM would have made the same decision, Malone and Hall were brought in before Lawton was hired, Thompson wasn't anything special until he played under Boucher who of course was brought in by Yzerman.

Lawton did make some very good trades in Purcell and Downie but he also made some horrible ones that hurt the Lightning. Just think how nice it would be if we actually got something of value for Recchi and a high 2nd round pick? Trading Recchi who is still useful today and pick #36 for 17 games of Matt Lashoff and 18 games of Martins Karsums counteracts a great trade like Purcell and a 3rd for Halpern.

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04-28-2011, 09:41 AM
  #7
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The only thing i'm willing to give Lawton full credit for is trading for Purcell.

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04-28-2011, 12:20 PM
  #8
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Roloson was the difference maker in that series.
No rolo = no series win! Seriously a shutout last night.
Love Yzerman!

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04-28-2011, 01:25 PM
  #9
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Yzerman was definitely the architect of the team this season, he gets full credit since he ultimately gets to decide who stays and who goes. But I give Lawton a lot of credit too, I thought that overall he had a positive influence on the team asset wise, and things could have gotten pretty sickening without him.

He convinced ownership to dump Melrose, which must have been no small feat considering how much money wasted that was, and he helped block the Stamkos deal, and who knows what else.

Unfortunately his legacy will be the fumbling of the coaching situation which cost us, and Norfolk, the playoffs. Without the anarchy with the ownership, and being able to pick his own coach, he probably would have been a lot more successful.

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04-28-2011, 03:42 PM
  #10
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Lawton wasn't a bad GM..and he deserves a little credit, or acknowledgment, for having somewhat of a "stamp" on this team...

But at the end of the day this is a new era. This is Vinik/Yzerman/Boucher's team now, period. This team wouldn't have made the playoffs without the management staff we have on board here, which is just absolutely exemplary. Add that in with our current group of players, a Hart trophy nominee, two former rocket richard winners, at times a seemingly unbeatable goaltender, a ton of character and leadership in the locker room...its no wonder we've made it to the semi-finals.

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04-28-2011, 04:30 PM
  #11
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Originally Posted by The Hockey Hitman View Post
Lawton wasn't a bad GM..and he deserves a little credit, or acknowledgment, for having somewhat of a "stamp" on this team...

But at the end of the day this is a new era. This is Vinik/Yzerman/Boucher's team now, period. This team wouldn't have made the playoffs without the management staff we have on board here, which is just absolutely exemplary. Add that in with our current group of players, a Hart trophy nominee, two former rocket richard winners, at times a seemingly unbeatable goaltender, a ton of character and leadership in the locker room...its no wonder we've made it to the semi-finals.
This.

Lawton's stamp on the team has to come somewhat with an asterisk. Very early on in the Koules-Barrie ownership, they were trying to be much more involved, and that frequently resulted in something Lawtron had to end up fixing later. Even if his time was slow paced in the progress department. Given what (and who) he had to work with, he did a great job.

But he's no SFY.

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04-28-2011, 04:45 PM
  #12
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I've always felt Lawton got too much of a bad rap because of the ownership fiasco he had to deal with. OK/LB were just too active in player movement and that led to three guys making the moves during their first year. Once Lawton was allowed to be the GM, he made some pretty good moves of getting Purcell and a pick for Halpern along with picking up Nate. He simply got desperate with the coaching fiasco like Patrick mentioned and that will always leave a black mark on his time here. I think he would have done an alright job if he didn't have two clowns running the show above him.

With that said, Yzerman deserves more of the credit. Just about every piece he brought in: Roloson, Moore, Beregenheim, Brewer, Kubina played a big part in last night's win. I don't think his start as a GM could have gone any better at this point.

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04-28-2011, 05:02 PM
  #13
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Players acquired by OK, LB, and BL:

Purcell - Good
Ohlund - Absurd contract
Stamkos- No brainer
Hedman - No brainer
Downie - Shouldn't have happened in the first place
Malone - Horrible contract
Hall - Meh
Thompson - Turned out well
Smith - You know the story


Players acquired by SFY:

Marty-Good
Brewer - Good
Roloson - Good
Moore - Good
Bergenheim - Good
Gagne - Good
Clark - Good
Jones - Meh
Kubina - Bad
Bergeron - Weak
Ritola - Excuseable

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04-28-2011, 05:04 PM
  #14
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The few good things Lawton did, were evened out by the god awful things he did. Such as Vrbata for Fedoruk & Hale deal. Buying out Prospal, Recchi for Lashoff & Karsums, hiring Rick Wilson, signing Tanguay, all the other crappy deals made in '08-'09 for bums like Petiot and Welch.

SFY has made one mistake in signing Ellis, but rectified his mistake within 3 months by trading for Roli before things got out of hand. SFY fixed the Norfolk relationship, got an ECHL affiliate, hired a Jack Adams candidate (assuming), and found bargain deals for guys like Serge, Moore, Jones, and helped Vinny get back to being old Vinny. Picking Connolly is still too early to tell. No one predicted Skinner would explode like he did and probably wouldn't of even made our team had we picked him.

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04-28-2011, 05:21 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Alaskan Assassin View Post
Players acquired by OK, LB, and BL:

Purcell - Good
Ohlund - Absurd contract
Stamkos- No brainer
Hedman - No brainer
Downie - Shouldn't have happened in the first place
Malone - Horrible contract
Hall - Meh
Thompson - Turned out well
Smith - You know the story


Players acquired by SFY:

Marty-Good
Brewer - Good
Roloson - Good
Moore - Good
Bergenheim - Good
Gagne - Good
Clark - Good
Jones - Meh
Kubina - Bad
Bergeron - Weak
Ritola - Excuseable
Not a downie fan? 7 points in the last series. Good move in my book. Agree with the rest.

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04-28-2011, 05:49 PM
  #16
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Ohlund's contract is a tough pill to swallow...but pretty much every team has an overpaid or "bad" contract or two. I wouldn't count Malone in that category because for all the grit and leadership he brings to the table. Hes produced seasons of 26, 21 & 14 goals, during of which his it should be notated that his games played has decreased three consecutive seasons. Thats the wear and tear on his body from putting it on the line out there every night, catching up to him. Its not crazy to think he could score 30 as a Bolt, if he played all 82 reg. season games.

When you add in Downie to Ohlund & Malone those are arguably are three most physical players on our team, so they're ultimate worth to your team isn't going to be reflected in goals or assists.

All this talk is pointless though. This team has made it to the semi-finals and lets be honest, realistically before the season began not many said TB would make the playoffs, let alone advance to the 2nd round. I am happy with the player personnel we have here now and think any evaluations or decisions on next seasons team needs to wait till we're officially eliminated.

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04-28-2011, 05:59 PM
  #17
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Building a team isn't always about just stockpiling bodies, and Yzerman's arrival has added a ton of legitimacy to the organization, restoring a lot of that momentum from 2004. For example, I doubt Gagne picks Tampa as a team to waive his NTC to go to if it was still Lawton in charge.

But when I look at the Lawton 'era' you basically had to have a guy do the dirty work and lay the foundation, take the hit for failure on the ice, like making no brainer draft picks. Without that dirty work done, Yzerman's regime would have involved a lot of hardship before things got going again.

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04-28-2011, 06:02 PM
  #18
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Originally Posted by BoltzBalla View Post
Not a downie fan? 7 points in the last series. Good move in my book. Agree with the rest.
I'm probably as big a Downie fan as there is, I love the guy. When I say it shouldn't have happened in the first place, however, I'm referring to the fact that we traded Carle to Philly because he didn't work out for us after the Boyle deal, which as we all know was a train wreck.

Overall, I definitely think Lawton was a bad GM surrounded by an even worse ownership. Sure, he's got a few noteworthy moves that look good, but there are plenty that screwed us over. His issues with Tocchet should not be overlooked either.

Seriously,

The Ohlund contract
The Walker contract
The Boyle trade
The Meszaros trade
The Recchi trade
The Vrbata trade
Marek Malik

...And many more. Yzerman has had to clean up a lot of the mess as well, and thankfully we don't have to live with the severe effects that some of these moves could have had if we didn't hire a very competent GM.

However, if we pulled off Vinny for Price, Subban and Plekanec, he'd likely be absolved of a lot


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04-28-2011, 07:24 PM
  #19
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Malik. *shudders*

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04-28-2011, 09:09 PM
  #20
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Originally Posted by The Alaskan Assassin View Post
I'm probably as big a Downie fan as there is, I love the guy. When I say it shouldn't have happened in the first place, however, I'm referring to the fact that we traded Carle to Philly because he didn't work out for us after the Boyle deal, which as we all know was a train wreck.

Overall, I definitely think Lawton was a bad GM surrounded by an even worse ownership. Sure, he's got a few noteworthy moves that look good, but there are plenty that screwed us over. His issues with Tocchet should not be overlooked either.

Seriously,

The Ohlund contract
The Walker contract
The Boyle trade
The Meszaros trade
The Recchi trade
The Vrbata trade
Marek Malik

...And many more. Yzerman has had to clean up a lot of the mess as well, and thankfully we don't have to live with the severe effects that some of these moves could have had if we didn't hire a very competent GM.

However, if we pulled off Vinny for Price, Subban and Plekanec, he'd likely be absolved of a lot
Ohlund contract isnt bad at all. Considering the second he retires it comes off the books. Got a solid dman for however long he wants to play at a fair cap hit. Sure hes regressed but thats his age. I believe he will retire after next year (if not after this year possibly). And Poof "contract gone". I could see maybe saying getting Ohlund was a bad move (even though I dont think it was), but theres no problems with the contract.

Walker contract...yes... haha.

He had NOTHING to do with the Boyle trade.

Im pretty sure he had limited input in the Mez trade as well..not 100% on that though. Even if he did, Kuba and Picard have done great things since moving on right? So really it was a 1st for Mez and at the time it looked like a steal. Cant always predict how things will work out though. I dont think there were many Lightning fans who hated this trade when it happened.

Rechhi trade was a bad one. Mainly because of giving up the 2nd round pick. The players we got back obviously werent scouted very well either, but the pick was the worst thing about it.

Vrbata wasnt a trade he was UFA (unless you mean trading to get rid of him? ) in which case it had to be done and we got serviceable players in return. Vrbata was never a great fit, but again, most Lightning fans liked the signing.

Malik....ummm yeah shhhh. Shootout wizard duh!

I agree with Textbook on this one. He was a solid GM with seriously bad owners who made him look very bad. I think he did decently under what the had to deal with, up until the point where he made the fatal mistake for both teams of the coaching debacle.

Dont get me wrong though. Im glad hes gone and couldnt be happy with what we currently have.

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04-28-2011, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
Ohlund contract isnt bad at all. Considering the second he retires it comes off the books. Got a solid dman for however long he wants to play at a fair cap hit. Sure hes regressed but thats his age. I believe he will retire after next year (if not after this year possibly). And Poof "contract gone". I could see maybe saying getting Ohlund was a bad move (even though I dont think it was), but theres no problems with the contract.
His contract is horrible, LOL. I won't try to justify it by counting on him to retire, either. His level of play has severely dropped, and like you said, he ain't getting younger. The contract is what made it a bad move, and it's the reason he's practically unmovable.


Quote:
He had NOTHING to do with the Boyle trade.
That's my bad, as I originally copied the poster who said moves made under BL, OK and LB, so that's why I mentioned it.

Quote:
Im pretty sure he had limited input in the Mez trade as well..not 100% on that though. Even if he did, Kuba and Picard have done great things since moving on right?

So really it was a 1st for Mez and at the time it looked like a steal. Cant always predict how things will work out though. I dont think there were many Lightning fans who hated this trade when it happened.
I seem to recall the reaction to be overwhelmingly negative. Mez was considered overrated, and Picard was playing very, very well for us. Kuba wasn't a stud but he wasn't a plug either, and the 1st rounder just sealed the deal. Then the Mez contract? Forget about it
Quote:
Rechhi trade was a bad one. Mainly because of giving up the 2nd round pick. The players we got back obviously werent scouted very well either, but the pick was the worst thing about it.
This deal reeked of bad GM.

Quote:
Vrbata wasnt a trade he was UFA (unless you mean trading to get rid of him? ) in which case it had to be done and we got serviceable players in return. Vrbata was never a great fit, but again, most Lightning fans liked the signing.
Yes, I was talking about the trade to get rid of him."Two servicable players in return"? LMFAO. One was a complete shell of his former self (who we are still paying) and the other was arguably the worst player in hockey.

Quote:
Malik....ummm yeah shhhh. Shootout wizard duh!
I think we can both agree on this one.

Quote:
I agree with Textbook on this one. He was a solid GM with seriously bad owners who made him look very bad. I think he did decently under what the had to deal with, up until the point where he made the fatal mistake for both teams of the coaching debacle.
Dont get me wrong though. Im glad hes gone and couldnt be happy with what we currently have. [/QUOTE]

I see your points, but I think Lawton was weak. I'm sure that the current GM makes Lawton look worse though.

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04-28-2011, 09:54 PM
  #22
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Don't forget Lawton's signing of Niitymaki for dirt cheap. He (Nitty) nearly singlehandedly got us into the playoffs until the coaching implosion. I don't think Lawton was necessarily that bad, just not SFY.

When you look at it Stevie Y improved our top 6 with Gagne, ridiculously improved our bottom 6 with Bergie and Moore, acquired solid defensemen in Kubina and Brewer, and stabilized goaltending after the Ellis experiment failed. Not much else you can ask for in one year's work.

I'm really curious what will happen with our D and goaltending in the offseason. I vote one or two top 4 defensemen, at least one who can move the puck, and resigning both Roli and Smith. I root for Smith so hard; his situation is sooooo sh**y and the guy just doesn't deserve it.

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04-28-2011, 10:34 PM
  #23
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I liked Nitty alot. He was either flat out unbeatable at times but other odd times he was a sieve. lol That run before the Olympics he was one of the best in the league stats wise but after the Olympics he, like the rest of the team tanked. I was kind of bummed we didn't re-sign him. **** Ellis man, disaster from the start with the whole Twitter BS and being best buddies with Smith. Feel sorry for the Ducks, they got him for one more year since SFY pawned off another bad contract on someone.

Thank god for Roli.

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04-28-2011, 11:52 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by TheDaysOf 04 View Post
One way to look at it

Players acquired by OK, LB, and BL:

Purcell - trade
Ohlund - FA signing
Stamkos- drafted
Hedman - drafted
Downie - trade
Malone - FA signing
Hall - FA signing
Thompson - waiver claim
Smith - trade


Players acquired by SFY:

Brewer - trade
Roloson - trade
Moore - FA signing
Bergenheim - FA signing
Gagne - trade
Clark - FA signing
Jones - FA signing
Kubina - FA signing
Bergeron - FA signing
Ritola - waiver claim


Players in the org. before both:

Lecavalier
St. Louis
Smaby
Lundin
Tyrell
B. Jones
To be fair, you need to also show the key departures that occurred under SFY and the grouping immediately before him. It's not so much who you bring in, but who got sent out that hurt the team OR was a help to the team in either acquiring a better player in return, or the "addition via subtraction" role.

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04-29-2011, 12:38 AM
  #25
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Reading more praise out there for a certain former TB GM for TB success - thinking some need to dig a little deeper before heaping praise
hmm which one of you is EE...

Is it possible that FP is Michael Jackson, Dan Ellis, and Erik Erlendsson?

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