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Winnipeg misses the Jets........

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Old
07-12-2004, 02:00 AM
  #26
Hellboy30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XavierX
hmm

600,000 in Winnipeg
5,000,000+ in Phoenix

I wonder.....
700 000 in Winnipeg, with around 200 000 hardcore hockey fans and 200 000 casual fans
3 400 000 in Phoenix, with around 100 000 hardcore hockey fans and perhaps 300 000 casual fans

It doesnt matter what the actual population of the region is. You could put a team in Mexico City (population : 24 000 000), but how many die hard hockey fans are there in Mexico? Saskatoon would have better attendance, even though they are roughly the same size as Green Bay.

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07-12-2004, 02:08 AM
  #27
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bill watters (ex-maple leaf exec) was on a local winnipeg radio station a few months ago. during an interview, he mentioned that is winnipeg can sell out its arena (with tix averaging 40 bucks a pop), its possible the city would have a stable NHL franchise. however, its unlikely this would happen given the lack of strong local businesses here to support the team. as well, many families here certainly wouldn't be able to afford to watch a game 42 times per year. for instance, it would cost a family of four around 7 grand to watch all home games. that's obviously very expensive.

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07-12-2004, 08:15 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Puddy
If a business man (or woman) from Winnipeg could operate a team for a small profit, he might be inclined to do so if the conditions were right. Under a new CBA, one with a hard cap, it might be possible for a team in Winnipeg to operate at a profit.
Sorry but that isn't going to happen unless Winnipeg is one of the top 30 (or however many teams there are) markets in the NHL.

Use my previous example of a new CBA where the players have decided they'll do it for the love of the game and volunteer. Obviously pretty much anywhere could turn a huge profit on the operations side. But because the NHL has become such a profitable business, the value of the franchises skyrockets. Teams have values similiar to that of the NFL.

In order for Winnipeg to have a team they have to buy one for $500M (or some other number based upon what the projected profits would be in the 30th best market in the NHL). They'd either buy the team with cash but have a really poor return on that investment (i.e. they'd make more money by putting that cash in the bank) or they'd have to borrow the money to buy the team but the profit from the operations wouldn't be enough to pay off the loan.

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Old
07-12-2004, 09:55 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
Sorry but that isn't going to happen unless Winnipeg is one of the top 30 (or however many teams there are) markets in the NHL.

Use my previous example of a new CBA where the players have decided they'll do it for the love of the game and volunteer. Obviously pretty much anywhere could turn a huge profit on the operations side. But because the NHL has become such a profitable business, the value of the franchises skyrockets. Teams have values similiar to that of the NFL.

In order for Winnipeg to have a team they have to buy one for $500M (or some other number based upon what the projected profits would be in the 30th best market in the NHL). They'd either buy the team with cash but have a really poor return on that investment (i.e. they'd make more money by putting that cash in the bank) or they'd have to borrow the money to buy the team but the profit from the operations wouldn't be enough to pay off the loan.
500 Million??? What have you been smoking? We could get a team for as low as 1/10 of that figure.

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Old
07-12-2004, 09:56 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jets4Life
700 000 in Winnipeg, with around 200 000 hardcore hockey fans and 200 000 casual fans
3 400 000 in Phoenix, with around 100 000 hardcore hockey fans and perhaps 300 000 casual fans

Lol, where exactly do you get these numbers from?

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Old
07-12-2004, 09:59 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jets4Life
700 000 in Winnipeg, with around 200 000 hardcore hockey fans and 200 000 casual fans
3 400 000 in Phoenix, with around 100 000 hardcore hockey fans and perhaps 300 000 casual fans
Um, did you do a survey or something?

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Old
07-12-2004, 10:00 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jets4Life
You know a city is ready for the NHL when WWE Wrestling comes to town, and over 12 000 people sporatically chant "Go Jets Go" throughout the event. Unfortunately the chant was never heard as it was dubbed over on the WWE program "Raw".


With our new state-of-the-art downtown arena, a supportive community, and most importantly, corporate support this time around, the NHL in Winnipeg will be economically viable this time around if the NHL manages to curb player salaries, and wins a small-market friendly CBA.

Never give up your hopes. Just ask the inhabitants of Minnesota and Denver.

I would love to see a team back in Winnipeg, and I totally agree with your assessment.

BTW that may have been TSN dubbing that (for whatever reason)

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07-12-2004, 10:05 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jets4Life
500 Million??? What have you been smoking? We could get a team for as low as 1/10 of that figure.
Can you read? If so, try applying that skill to my previous post.

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Old
07-12-2004, 10:30 AM
  #34
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Quote:
The Penguins have averaged 14,811 fans per game over the last five seasons. That includes this past season’s unusually low figure of 11,877 per opening. Morganti spoke wistfully of giving Winnipeg or Quebec City a second chance.

But the Winnipeg Jets averaged 12,835 per game in the five seasons before moving to Phoenix in 1996. The Quebec Nordiques averaged 14,435 per game in the five seasons before moving to Denver in 1995.

Those figures are both below the Penguins’ average for the last five years, Winnipeg’s significantly so.


12,000 fans showed up to games in the last 5 years for the Jets + the way the dollar is up North...keep dreaming

http://www.espnradio1250.com/listing...PT=MARK+MADDEN

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Old
07-12-2004, 10:49 AM
  #35
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Do any of you clowns know why the Jets left Winnipeg?

1 - No new arena deal could be worked out.

2 - Winnipeg Enterprises(owners of the arena) owned the parking $$$$.

3 - The Jets got ZERO % of all concession sales.

So the Jets relied solely on ticket and merchandise sales.

To be profitable in todays NHL, teams must own the rights to parking and concession $$$.

Oh ya, when the Jets got sold, Shenkarow transfered all his money to Quebec to bypass the taxes in Manitoba, therefore screwing the city out of $$$.

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07-12-2004, 11:08 AM
  #36
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I miss the Jets every day. From their gorgeous jerseys, to that Selanne rookie season, the Dale Hawerchuk days, Bob Essensa guarding the net. You know the NHL is @#$%'d when a city like Winnipeg loses a team to a city in the desert...JUST BRUTAL!

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Old
07-12-2004, 11:15 AM
  #37
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My only problem with Winnipeg is when some of their fans act like it's the worlds fault that they are no longer around. I think hockey does belong in Winnipeg, but not at the expense of a current NHL franchise.

Flame away.

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Old
07-12-2004, 11:43 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luongofan
My only problem with Winnipeg is when some of their fans act like it's the worlds fault that they are no longer around. I think hockey does belong in Winnipeg, but not at the expense of a current NHL franchise.

Flame away.
Why would you get flamed? It sounds reasonable. I too, thnk the same thing.

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Old
07-12-2004, 11:46 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jets4Life
500 Million??? What have you been smoking? We could get a team for as low as 1/10 of that figure.
Heh, yeah, if you're buying the Oilers or Flames.

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Old
07-12-2004, 01:51 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Backin72
Do any of you clowns know why the Jets left Winnipeg?

1 - No new arena deal could be worked out.

2 - Winnipeg Enterprises(owners of the arena) owned the parking $$$$.

3 - The Jets got ZERO % of all concession sales.

So the Jets relied solely on ticket and merchandise sales.

To be profitable in todays NHL, teams must own the rights to parking and concession $$$.

Oh ya, when the Jets got sold, Shenkarow transfered all his money to Quebec to bypass the taxes in Manitoba, therefore screwing the city out of $$$.
Finally, someone in the thread who actually has a clue as to what he's talking about.

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Old
07-12-2004, 10:08 PM
  #41
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Yeah really. The Jets didn't leave Winnipeg because it's "too small" or "not hockey enough", they left because of the poor business state of the modern NHL and the poor business state of the '90s Jets. Plain and simple.

Let's all just be fair here - if a city can sell most tickets every game, and get games watched on TV, why shouldn't they have a team? Tickets would be speculation (although the demand seems to be there) but judging by this past season, Canadians will watch any hockey team when it comes down to it. I hope the NHL gets some of its financial oddities worked out so the league can work again.

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Old
07-12-2004, 10:15 PM
  #42
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Why should Atlanta get a second chance and not Winnipeg?

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Old
07-13-2004, 02:25 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hootchie Cootchie
Why should Atlanta get a second chance and not Winnipeg?
Not to mention Denver, the Bay Area, Minnesota.

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Old
07-13-2004, 04:37 AM
  #44
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I'm glad we have some posters who are intelligent enough to realize this is not
a simple debate.

Winnipeg's not big enough + The arena's not big enough + If it's not a top 30 market it's out, etc, etc, are much to simple to say when really it runs much deeper than that.

The city's size is not as important as the population of hockey fans in the area. It's obvious the popularity of NHL hockey is enormous in Winnipeg. The Go Jets Go chants at WWE Raw were ridiculous. The jerseys, shirts and signs were everywhere. It's safe to say the demographic is hockey friendly.

Also the math was done as to how much ticket revenue would need to be generated at the new MTS Centre to sustain a team. If the rink sells out every night at its current size and the average ticket price is $53 (I believe, if not right
it's close), it will generate the NHL average. And realistically if the NHL were to come back there would definitely be some modifications to the seating.

The argument that the city needs to be in the top 30 markets in North America is
also bunk. Ever heard of 'local ownership groups'? If a group of wealthy Winnipeggers decide to pursue a team here they will, regardless of whether or not they could generate slightly more revenue elsewhere. Asking a wealthy outsider to bring a team here might not be possible if it's not a top 30 market, but doesn't mean it can't happen.

The reasons the Jets were sold were stated earlier by another poster who obviously knows more about the situation than 99 per cent of the people here. The arena, concession revenue, parking revenue etc have been corrected by the MTS Centre and the fall of Winnipeg Enterprises. That alone makes the city much more capable of supporting a franchise.

Another interesting point that has yet been discussed is the Sam Katz factor. For people unfamiliar with him, Sam Katz was elected mayor of Winnipeg less than a month ago. He is a self made multi-millionaire who owns the professional baseball team and stadium in Winnipeg. He built his wealth using entertainment and promotion. He was one of the main people called upon during the Save The Jets campaign and didn't want to get involved because the franchise's hands were tied by Winnipeg Enterprises and the Winnipeg Arena. During the campaign he stated bringing the NHL back was something that had to be looked at. A lot of his votes came from people hoping he will lead a charge to bring the NHL back to the city. He's huge into commerce and development of downtown business which only helps.

The determination to get a franchise back in Winnipeg is picking up a ton of steam. If you don't live here you don't know. It's written about in the papers weekly, talked about at coffee shops everywhere - every single day. There's a big buzz and I have a feeling it's going to grow for a couple more years before someone is ready to make a serious bid for a team. Whether or not it means Winnipeg will get a team remains to be seen, but you can bet the momentum building up is leading to something big.

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Old
07-13-2004, 05:41 AM
  #45
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no more canadian teams please

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Old
07-13-2004, 07:59 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Cherry
The argument that the city needs to be in the top 30 markets in North America is
also bunk. Ever heard of 'local ownership groups'? If a group of wealthy Winnipeggers decide to pursue a team here they will, regardless of whether or not they could generate slightly more revenue elsewhere. Asking a wealthy outsider to bring a team here might not be possible if it's not a top 30 market, but doesn't mean it can't happen.
No it isn't bunk.

If an NHL team can generate enough revenues to be worth $150M in, for example, Kansas City but only enough revenues to be worth $100M in Winnipeg how does Winnipeg get a team?

The magical "local ownership group" isn't going to get financially viable NHL team for Winnipeg? There's only two ways to get a team, one is to buy an existing team and relocate it and the other is to purchase an expansion team.

Either way, there's would be an ownership group willing to pay $150 M for a team in Kansas City. Winnipeg's magical "local ownership group" would have to do either convince the relocating franchise / NHL to sell them a team for $100M, which isn't going to happen since they can sell it for $150M to KC or they can overpay by $50M and meet the bid by KC.

If they overpay, they'd have to pay in cash because no bank is going to loan $150M for an asset worth $100M. And how many people have enough cash that they can sink $150M into a business that will provide a rate of return far below the market rate IF EVERYTHING GOES PERFECTLY? Are there that many rich but stupid people in Winnipeg?

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Old
07-13-2004, 11:20 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reilly311
no more canadian teams please
Why? Something against Canada?

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Old
07-13-2004, 01:18 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
No it isn't bunk.

If an NHL team can generate enough revenues to be worth $150M in, for example, Kansas City but only enough revenues to be worth $100M in Winnipeg how does Winnipeg get a team?

The magical "local ownership group" isn't going to get financially viable NHL team for Winnipeg? There's only two ways to get a team, one is to buy an existing team and relocate it and the other is to purchase an expansion team.

Either way, there's would be an ownership group willing to pay $150 M for a team in Kansas City. Winnipeg's magical "local ownership group" would have to do either convince the relocating franchise / NHL to sell them a team for $100M, which isn't going to happen since they can sell it for $150M to KC or they can overpay by $50M and meet the bid by KC.

If they overpay, they'd have to pay in cash because no bank is going to loan $150M for an asset worth $100M. And how many people have enough cash that they can sink $150M into a business that will provide a rate of return far below the market rate IF EVERYTHING GOES PERFECTLY? Are there that many rich but stupid people in Winnipeg?
Enlighten us on how your theory relates if only one group is interested in buying a franchise that's been put up for sale? I don't want to hear you talk about how that's not possible. Just address the question.

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Old
07-13-2004, 02:02 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Cherry
There's a big buzz and I have a feeling it's going to grow for a couple more years before someone is ready to make a serious bid for a team. Whether or not it means Winnipeg will get a team remains to be seen, but you can bet the momentum building up is leading to something big.
Like a big loss of interest somewhere down the road.

Really, how can Winnipeg be taken seriously when they totally missed the boat on the new arena? They were at a crossroad, had an opportunity and they took the wrong way going for a midget arena. It's idiotic and shows a lack of seriousness in bringing a new franchise.

Couple that with the fact Canada is struggling right now just to keep its current six teams and you think the Jets are on their way back? It seems unlikely.

I think the best bet to be a serious candidate is a revitalization of the economy overall in Canada and in Winnipeg. Until that happens, I doubt a team is coming back.

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Old
07-13-2004, 02:10 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Like a big loss of interest somewhere down the road.

Really, how can Winnipeg be taken seriously when they totally missed the boat on the new arena? They were at a crossroad, had an opportunity and they took the wrong way going for a midget arena. It's idiotic and shows a lack of seriousness in bringing a new franchise.

Couple that with the fact Canada is struggling right now just to keep its current six teams and you think the Jets are on their way back? It seems unlikely.

I think the best bet to be a serious candidate is a revitalization of the economy overall in Canada and in Winnipeg. Until that happens, I doubt a team is coming back.
I don't disagree with you. It does seem unlikely to happen but it isn't impossible. Manitoba isn't a rich province by any means but there has been somewhat of a commercial resurgence in the past 3-5 years and the next 10 will get better, especially with the current vision of city hall here. It's all about commercial growth and downtown redevelopment. And Manitoba had it's highest population growth rate in decades this past year.

Many things have to happen to make Winnipeg a viable market but it's comforting to know that if they do happen, the local interest is here.

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