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Winnipeg misses the Jets........

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Old
07-13-2004, 02:48 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Cherry
Enlighten us on how your theory relates if only one group is interested in buying a franchise that's been put up for sale? I don't want to hear you talk about how that's not possible. Just address the question.
Why would there only be one group interested?

If the new magical CBA that Winnipeggers are hoping for so badly arrives, why wouldn't its magical effect work on all the markets that are better then Winnipeg?

If, for example, KC with their new building that is actually NHL calibre, is the 30th best NHL market and a better market then Winnipeg, why would someone not buy a team that needs to relocate?

If an NHL franchise is worth $100M in Winnipeg then if someone spent a little more then that they could make a lot of money by getting a franchise for a little over $100M and moving it to KC.

But your question is nonsensical. There are plenty of prospective buyers of NHL franchises. Every NHL franchise that has sold recently has had multiple parties interested in purchasing it. And that's without the magical CBA that Winnipeggers want! Why would the number of interested parties dwindle to one with the magical CBA in place? Wouldn't the number go up?

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07-13-2004, 03:23 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
Why would there only be one group interested?

If the new magical CBA that Winnipeggers are hoping for so badly arrives, why wouldn't its magical effect work on all the markets that are better then Winnipeg?

If, for example, KC with their new building that is actually NHL calibre, is the 30th best NHL market and a better market then Winnipeg, why would someone not buy a team that needs to relocate?

If an NHL franchise is worth $100M in Winnipeg then if someone spent a little more then that they could make a lot of money by getting a franchise for a little over $100M and moving it to KC.

But your question is nonsensical. There are plenty of prospective buyers of NHL franchises. Every NHL franchise that has sold recently has had multiple parties interested in purchasing it. And that's without the magical CBA that Winnipeggers want! Why would the number of interested parties dwindle to one with the magical CBA in place? Wouldn't the number go up?
Not answering my question and simply calling it 'nonsensical' doesn't add anything to this discussion.

And what's up with the name change? Were you making too many enemies under your old handle?

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07-13-2004, 03:31 PM
  #53
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Quote from Winnipeg's mayor/entrepreneurial multimillionaire/owner of a professional baseball team Sam Katz :

"If a better CBA can be reached then yes, we should be looking seriously at regaining an NHL franchise for Winnipeg. Of course."

Quote from internet discussion board poster BlackRedGold :

"Winnipeg is either one of the top 30 NHL markets in North America or it isn't. If it is, it will probably get a team. If it isn't it won't regardless of what the CBA is like."

You should tell Mr. Katz how the world operates before he losses all his money.


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07-13-2004, 03:42 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by ObeySteve
Besides, Edmonton is arguably the most struggling franchise outside of the Pens
You are correct that this is arguable: the Oilers made a profit this year without any playoff revenue, which is better than many teams in the league. I'd say places like Phoenix or Carolina where the fan base is growing are struggling more.

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07-13-2004, 03:48 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Bohologo
You are correct that this is arguable: the Oilers made a profit this year without any playoff revenue, which is better than many teams in the league. I'd say places like Phoenix or Carolina where the fan base is growing are struggling more.
I disagree. The Oilers are on Life Support as it is. What with one owner bailing out already, and the rest of the group not committed to the franchise long-term, the Oilers are definitely at risk of becoming to the next franchise to go. Factor in an outdated arena and the writing is on the wall if a favourable CBA fails to materialize.

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07-13-2004, 03:56 PM
  #56
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Cherry
I don't disagree with you. It does seem unlikely to happen but it isn't impossible. Manitoba isn't a rich province by any means but there has been somewhat of a commercial resurgence in the past 3-5 years and the next 10 will get better, especially with the current vision of city hall here. It's all about commercial growth and downtown redevelopment. And Manitoba had it's highest population growth rate in decades this past year.

Many things have to happen to make Winnipeg a viable market but it's comforting to know that if they do happen, the local interest is here.
I'm not really up to speed on how Manitoba projects to grow ecomically.

If what you are saying is true then yes, one day we could see the Jets come back. The direction the NHL will take is also a factor. We should all know more about this after the next CBA (where I unfortunately expect ownership to bend over).

Also, one thing I would like is for other Canadian teams to get involved. It is in THEIR interest that Winnipeg comes back IMO because it means rivalries and interest across Canada. I would like to see more support in that end.

I think it's admirable that Winnipeg fans go crazy (in Quebec City, they have been lethargic about losing the team) but I guess I am cynical and do not have much hope. I think it's a possibility and I am glad to see there are people showing both optimism and realism.

I don't like to name names and point fingers. But there are a couple of franchises in this league who suck. There are weak ownerships, weak markets. All sorts of stuff can happen. I just doubt it will for now.

In a couple of years everything could be a different ball game. Gary Bettman will not last forever, there will new TV deals, new CBAs. We'll see how our currency does. Tons of things that could get better or worse.

There's no law against keeping your hopes up but I am just afraid that after a while, people will just give up and get sick of the whole thing. If it was up to me, there would be NHL hockey in a couple of classic cities but what can you do

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07-13-2004, 04:01 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
But your question is nonsensical. There are plenty of prospective buyers of NHL franchises.
That isn't true as of now. The value has taken a dive and some teams that were put on the market have been kept instead. There are few new markets interested and there are few buyers interested even in keeping a team in its current market.

Interest in acquiring NHL franchises has gone down across the board.

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07-13-2004, 04:02 PM
  #58
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One thing Winnipeg needs is for the young local millionaires get involved. If Chipman is involved, ( He owns the rink ) combined with the Asper's, and say Marty Weinberg, they definately have the money to bring a team here. The biggest problem is population. Will they get enough people to support the team. I question this because i am a HUGE hockey fan, 29 years old, single, and with a good job. I l would probably only go to say 15 games ( Not counting Flyer games ) Would there be enough fans to support the team. Just because some teams only get 10,000 fans, that does not mean if we get 13,000 fans, that makes it a healthy franchise.
I hope we get a team back, until then I keep going to Minnesota for games.

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07-13-2004, 04:09 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bicycle Repairman
the Oilers are definitely at risk of becoming to the next franchise to go.
If I had a dollar for every time I've heard that in the last decade, I'd have enough money to buy an NHL hockey team.

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07-13-2004, 04:19 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cawz
If I had a dollar for every time I've heard that in the last decade, I'd have enough money to buy an NHL hockey team.
I'd be rich too. We would all be.

And yet, that doesn't change the fact that a couple of times, the Oilers were at risk. A risk is not a certainty.

They still could be at risk. It's certainly not the best ownership arrangement possible as it is.

My first guess is that their rich (and recent) history of success may have saved their ass as they were a more marketable product. But a couple more years of mediocre performances and they may become vulnerable.

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Old
07-13-2004, 04:37 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
I'd be rich too. We would all be.

And yet, that doesn't change the fact that a couple of times, the Oilers were at risk. A risk is not a certainty.

They still could be at risk. It's certainly not the best ownership arrangement possible as it is.

My first guess is that their rich (and recent) history of success may have saved their ass as they were a more marketable product. But a couple more years of mediocre performances and they may become vulnerable.
Ya, I agree. When they were at their biggest risk though, the city and fans pulled through. And that was in the mid 90s, when people were still adjusting to the death of the dynasty. New fans now are used to the Oilers not being the most dominant team in the league, and fan support is still higher than most other cities. On this board, activity on the Oilers board is 2nd only to the Montreal board, which is the most storied franchise in NHL history.

Makes you wonder if the Jets had the same history as the Oilers, if they would still be around. Of all the teams that have relocated, have any of them actually had any franchise success? How many cups have the North Stars, Jets, Whalers, Rockies and Nordiques won collectively?

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07-13-2004, 05:07 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jets4Life
700 000 in Winnipeg, with around 200 000 hardcore hockey fans and 200 000 casual fans
3 400 000 in Phoenix, with around 100 000 hardcore hockey fans and perhaps 300 000 casual fans

It doesnt matter what the actual population of the region is. You could put a team in Mexico City (population : 24 000 000), but how many die hard hockey fans are there in Mexico? Saskatoon would have better attendance, even though they are roughly the same size as Green Bay.
Where in thell did you get those numbers? 1995? The 5th largest city in the US only has 3.4 million people? WHATS GOING ON!? Phoenix is so sprawled out, there are easily 5 million within reach of the Arena (~25 min ride) Bottomline: Winnipeg needs more people.

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Old
07-13-2004, 05:08 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cawz
On this board, activity on the Oilers board is 2nd only to the Montreal board, which is the most storied franchise in NHL history.
LOL! And I'll bet none of them are members of the Edmonton Investment Group. Even if every post was worth a dollar, it wouldn't mean one iota to the Oilers' perilous financial situation.

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07-13-2004, 05:20 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bicycle Repairman
LOL! And I'll bet none of them are members of the Edmonton Investment Group. Even if every post was worth a dollar, it wouldn't mean one iota to the Oilers' perilous financial situation.
It means they have more fan support than most other places. In the 90s, when they almost moved, the fans had to pony up and buy enough season tickets to keep the team. And they did. Its why Green Bay is compared to Edmonton, the way they support their franchise. Not the biggest market, but per capita the best fans.

I'm talking about history and fan support. Capeesh Corky?

And the Oilers have a perilous financial situation? The Oilers lose their star players to teams whose debts amass over $200 million. This is the problem with the NHL. Its difficult for small market teams to compete with teams who overpay players setting an apparent market value, then declare bankruptsy

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07-13-2004, 05:34 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by XavierX
Where in thell did you get those numbers? 1995? The 5th largest city in the US only has 3.4 million people? WHATS GOING ON!? Phoenix is so sprawled out, there are easily 5 million within reach of the Arena (~25 min ride) Bottomline: Winnipeg needs more people.
What do you know about the city beyond the population number? Because, as has been stated numerous times throughout the thread, population isn't the reason the Jets left. And Phoenix's gaudy population certain hasn't helped the team sell-out either.

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07-13-2004, 06:11 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Cherry
Not answering my question and simply calling it 'nonsensical' doesn't add anything to this discussion.
I answered it unlike you who instead of providing a rebuttal to my statements just brings up worthless strawman arguments.

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07-13-2004, 06:14 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
That isn't true as of now. The value has taken a dive and some teams that were put on the market have been kept instead. There are few new markets interested and there are few buyers interested even in keeping a team in its current market.

Interest in acquiring NHL franchises has gone down across the board.
Just because they aren't interested at the current prices doesn't mean there aren't prospective owners out there.

Besides, why would anyone invest in the NHL when they don't know what the expenses are going to be in the new CBA. I suspect that the owners with franchises on the market are looking for valuations based upon a radical new CBA while prospective owners are basing their valuations upon the status quo.

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07-13-2004, 06:21 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Cherry
Quote from Winnipeg's mayor/entrepreneurial multimillionaire/owner of a professional baseball team Sam Katz :

"If a better CBA can be reached then yes, we should be looking seriously at regaining an NHL franchise for Winnipeg. Of course."
You should tell Mr. Katz how the world operates before he losses all his money.
Because politicians always tell the truth instead of telling the public what they want to hear.

Someone should tell you how the world works so you aren't so damn gullible.

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07-13-2004, 06:22 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bicycle Repairman
I disagree. The Oilers are on Life Support as it is. What with one owner bailing out already, and the rest of the group not committed to the franchise long-term, the Oilers are definitely at risk of becoming to the next franchise to go. Factor in an outdated arena and the writing is on the wall if a favourable CBA fails to materialize.
I disagree. A business making a profit cannot be accurately described as being on "Life Support". While the Oilers may not be Detroit or Colorado in terms of resources, they are being run as well as they could be in the current environment: good crowds, decent team, promising future. Arenas can be replaced like any business infrastructure. As to the CBA uncertainty, there will be more than one franchise in trouble should things turn out badly, as you intimate with your characterization of "favourable CBA"; by definition, an unfavourable CBA would not be, well, favourable.

Nice to see a Flames fan showing concern though; didn't the Flames just break even with their long playoff run? Does that mean they're on life support too? I don't think so-your alarmist posturing is perhaps unduly negative.

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07-13-2004, 06:24 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Bicycle Repairman
Even if every post was worth a dollar, it wouldn't mean one iota to the Oilers' perilous financial situation.
A business making a profit does not qualify for 'perilous financial situation'. Simple economics. Wait-did you go to U of C?

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07-13-2004, 06:29 PM
  #71
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The Flames? Oh, they're in the same leaky boat too. At least I'm realistic about their impending demise.

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07-13-2004, 07:57 PM
  #72
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There is onesimple reason why the Jets will never return...

There is simply not enough corporate sponsorship and money to support an NHL team. Period.

The New arena was not meant to house an NHL team. Don't you think when they designed it that they maynhave thought of the possibility of the NHL returning if it was even remotely feasable?

There will be no NHL in Manitoba ever again.

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07-13-2004, 08:09 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan
There will be no NHL in Manitoba ever again.
You'll never convince some of the Jets fans though. It's like Linus Van Pelt and the Great Pumpkin. Sad, really.

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07-13-2004, 08:21 PM
  #74
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I dont get it, why did the CBC guarantee the NHL will return to Winnipeg??? They did say they should return, they didnt say they may return, they guaranteed that they will return to the NHL.

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07-13-2004, 09:47 PM
  #75
Vlad The Impaler
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Originally Posted by Canadian_man
I dont get it, why did the CBC guarantee the NHL will return to Winnipeg??? They did say they should return, they didnt say they may return, they guaranteed that they will return to the NHL.
Define "the CBC"? Is it someone in particular at the CBC?

Also, did "the CBC" justify this so-called garantee? Did they give reasons?

Basically, I think it boils down to how prosperous the city will be over the years, as well as the CBA and finally our currency.

I wouldn't say the Jets will *never* come back. I think it is unwise to do so. But not under the current conditions.

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