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Who starts Game 6?

View Poll Results: SHOULD start, not would.
Niemi 28 22.40%
Nitty 97 77.60%
Voters: 125. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-24-2011, 01:58 AM
  #51
Led Zappa
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I can't even remember if I posted here, but there is no easy answer. Niemi wasn't at fault, but i see arguments for Nitty.

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04-24-2011, 02:03 AM
  #52
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I want to start Niitty, but there are parts of me that says "stick with Niemi". arghhh... headache...

I vote Niitty.

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04-24-2011, 02:04 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
I can't even remember if I posted here, but there is no easy answer. Niemi wasn't at fault, but i see arguments for Nitty.
thank you for being what seems to be the only sharks fan here who doesnt dump on niemi like he is nabokov

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04-24-2011, 02:05 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by rn277 View Post
you guys are unbelievable.....not a single goal was niemi's fault.....one was a 2 on 1, one was a screen/deflection, and the other was, yea, ill get blasted for this one, the result of the referees getting involved in the play and interfering with an easy sharks d-zone clear, all year everyone has questioned niemi, even to the point where people actually thought nitty was a better goalie at the beginning of the year.......

but maybe nitty should start cause its obvious the sharks dont play defense with niemi in net, for some reason they play defense when nitty is playing, i dont get it
The screen/deflection goal was his fault because Niemi turned it over. Two of the three goals were in large part due to Niemi. Now, he is not the only issue with those goals. McLellan made that pretty clear and everyone here knows it too. The D have to be better with the puck and the forwards have to be better supporting them. But that doesn't mean that Niemi should be let off the hook for his share of the responsibility.

The question is simple. Who gives the Sharks the best chance to win game six? With how Niemi has looked in this series, I'd have to go with Niittymaki. Besides that, there's really no downside for Niittymaki starting this game. Niemi could use the break and if it goes seven, he will get the start rested.

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04-24-2011, 02:06 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rn277 View Post
you guys are unbelievable.....not a single goal was niemi's fault.....one was a 2 on 1, one was a screen/deflection, and the other was, yea, ill get blasted for this one, the result of the referees getting involved in the play and interfering with an easy sharks d-zone clear, all year everyone has questioned niemi, even to the point where people actually thought nitty was a better goalie at the beginning of the year.......

but maybe nitty should start cause its obvious the sharks dont play defense with niemi in net, for some reason they play defense when nitty is playing, i dont get it
This.

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04-24-2011, 02:09 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rn277 View Post
thank you for being what seems to be the only sharks fan here who doesnt dump on niemi like he is nabokov
I'm not dumping on Niemi. It's the playoffs and you have to go with the hot hand. Right now that's Nitty. I'm sure after a few days off Niemi will be back to his old self.

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04-24-2011, 02:15 AM
  #57
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lol if niemi were nabby we would have already won this. niemi has let in 4 goals, 4 goals (in 1 period), 3 goals, 3 goals (in 1 period) in the past 4 games. these are pathetic numbers against the worst bunch of fwds that managed to make the playoffs the past 5 years. we might be playing subpar defense, but alot of those goals were shots that would have been saved by a solid good goalie who buys wins for his team.

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04-24-2011, 02:21 AM
  #58
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sorry about first post, i rant too much, its my first playoffs on these boards and i get carried away, but seriously now, if you guys advocate nitty in net do you also say the canucks should start schnieder and not luongo? and did you guys think bernier should have started today and not quick?

niemi is the stanley cup winning goalie and has been no worse than the other two....

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04-24-2011, 02:30 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rn277 View Post
sorry about first post, i rant too much, its my first playoffs on these boards and i get carried away, but seriously now, if you guys advocate nitty in net do you also say the canucks should start schnieder and not luongo? and did you guys think bernier should have started today and not quick?

niemi is the stanley cup winning goalie and has been no worse than the other two....
Realistically, any player should have to earn his spot with every game. But that is not how it plays out. There are players starting who should be on the bench or in the press box. The point now is that they have 7 games to win 4. At this point, Niemi is playing worse than Nitty. Over the long haul Niemi is better than Nitty, particularly with Nitty's injury issues which were apparent long before this season. There is too much mystique clouding the issue of merit in this case.

I had a couple of teachers a long time ago who did seating order on the basis of the last test results. Most of the time the first seat went to the same student, but there were occasions when someone else earned that seat. I think we are looking at the same situation here. Drop the mystique and go by merit because there isn't a lot of room for error if they are trying to win 4 in 7.

BTW, I think they should change out Luongo because he has played that bad, but I don't think they are losing on his play alone. I do think that Schneider would give the Nucks a better chance in a close game . . . right now. That may not be true in the long run. That change out will not happen, but that is the Nucks best shot at getting that final win. Same issue as the Sharks.

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04-24-2011, 02:34 AM
  #60
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wrong thread. fail.

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Old
04-24-2011, 02:37 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rn277 View Post
sorry about first post, i rant too much, its my first playoffs on these boards and i get carried away, but seriously now, if you guys advocate nitty in net do you also say the canucks should start schnieder and not luongo? and did you guys think bernier should have started today and not quick?

niemi is the stanley cup winning goalie and has been no worse than the other two....
There's a difference in the three situations. Bernier never relieved Quick in any game to make an argument for his case. When Schneider went in, he didn't look that good either. Niittymaki went in and has given up 1 goal on 30 shots in two appearances which included in both times the team turning around the shortcomings that befell Niemi.

And honestly, the 'Stanley Cup winning goalie' argument for keeping him in is a humongous fallacy. It completely ignores what his actual individual contributions were and ignores what made the team Niemi was on last year good enough to win it all.

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Old
04-24-2011, 02:45 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
But goaltending is about making the saves you're supposed to make and occasionally making the saves that you're not supposed to make...or big saves in big moments.
THIS ^^^


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
However, you're really oversimplifying it if you think it's just about covering everything low. Notice the three goals that happened tonight weren't low shots that got by. One was a deflection which all of the good teams can do. One was a rebound off the pads as a shot-pass. The other past that God awful glove of Niemi's. These teams can get the puck off the ice and hit the top shelf where mama hides the cookies. If you can only effectively cover half the net, you're an ineffective goaltender.
THIS ^^^


Though just for the record, that second goal was fairly weak, too. A terrible rebound.

A junior goalie can't leave that shot on top of the crease like that. Either you catch it, or you direct it into the corner.

Yes it was a 2-on-1, but you can't allow a puck to hit you in the glove and drop right in front of the open net. That is not simply not good enough. Kids are taught that stuff.


And I agree with the rest of what you said.

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04-24-2011, 02:50 AM
  #63
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Niitty. He's earned a shot with his two relief efforts. Niemi meanwhile has looked like crap most of the series outside of game 4.

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04-24-2011, 02:53 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJGoalie32 View Post
THIS ^^^




THIS ^^^


Though just for the record, that second goal was fairly weak, too. A terrible rebound.

A junior goalie can't leave that shot on top of the crease like that. Either you catch it, or you direct it into the corner.

Yes it was a 2-on-1, but you can't allow a puck to hit you in the glove and drop right in front of the open net. That is not simply not good enough. Kids are taught that stuff.


And I agree with the rest of what you said.
In that situation, I can give him a little bit of a break. The turnover by Boyle was in a spot that the team has made a point to tell the players it is the worst damn spot that you can turn the puck over in because it leads to the situation against.

Secondly, Murray did absolutely nothing but hang Niemi out to dry defending that. He didn't take the pass away. He didn't take the shot away. He didn't take the man crashing the crease. He didn't play the puck to clear the rebound. Niemi made the initial save and in that particular situation, unless it's a routine glove save, I'm not going to bash the goalie for a rebound popping out. It happens. If Murray did anything that resembled a defensive decision on the play, the rebound doesn't get buried.

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04-24-2011, 03:19 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by UniversalRemonster View Post
IMO, the saves a goaltender HAS TO make is EVERYTHING down low.
Your opinion is wrong. Or at least the simplicity of it is not shared by pretty much anybody officially associated with any level of hockey above high school age anywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UniversalRemonster View Post
If you allow the other team to roof the puck, you deserve to lose.
In the New York-Washington game from earlier today, there were approximately 8 shots taken by the Rangers above Michael Neuvirth's leg pads.

Even assuming total perfection on the other 19 shots he faced down low, I will let you ruminate on what happens to teams with goaltenders who give up 8 goals per game.

There are steps a defense can take to limit the number of high shots. A defense cannot stop them all. It is too easy, and especially on the power play (reason #1A why the Sharks PK has suffered so much this year) to have time and space to exploit such an obvious weakness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UniversalRemonster View Post
Your opinion? I'm guessing you think that goaltenders need to stop everything high? We already had that kind of goaltender. Didn't work.
Everything? No (though that would be nice.....and historic).

As far as what did work versus what didn't......once again, I shall remind you that what didn't work was having an offense unable to score an average of more than 2 goals per game. When the Sharks offense exceed that paltry total, they've won every series since 2002. When they've failed to reach that mark, they've lost every playoff series they've ever played, EVER.

If the Sharks were sub-2.00 goals per game for in this series, they'd already be 0-5 in this series......or hitting off the ladies tees at Castlewood, since the NHL has a 4-game mercy rule.


Quote:
Originally Posted by UniversalRemonster View Post
Quick stole a game today.

He made how many saves down low?
2 reasons:

First, the Sharks are TERRIBLE at shooting high (it's why the Sharks were the only playoff team Niemi has ever been effective against)

And second, Quick is a GOOD goaltender who DID make quite a few saves up high, too. He's not great......not yet anyway, if he ever will be......but his toolbag is bigger than Niemi's.

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04-24-2011, 03:26 AM
  #66
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Both Niitty and Niemi got us where we are.

Without Niitty in the beginning of the season we might not be in playoff contention, same goes for Niemi in the latter half of the season.

He should get the nod for game 6, give Niemi rest and reward Niitty for being here for the team when we needed him in game 3 and 5.

(This opinion comes from someone who knows nothing about goaltending)

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04-24-2011, 03:26 AM
  #67
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it doesn't matter who they start at this point if the team is going to play like crap.

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04-24-2011, 03:32 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
In that situation, I can give him a little bit of a break. The turnover by Boyle was in a spot that the team has made a point to tell the players it is the worst damn spot that you can turn the puck over in because it leads to the situation against.

Secondly, Murray did absolutely nothing but hang Niemi out to dry defending that. He didn't take the pass away. He didn't take the shot away. He didn't take the man crashing the crease. He didn't play the puck to clear the rebound. Niemi made the initial save and in that particular situation, unless it's a routine glove save, I'm not going to bash the goalie for a rebound popping out. It happens. If Murray did anything that resembled a defensive decision on the play, the rebound doesn't get buried.
Yeah. I'll agree with you to a point.

The one difference is that I harp on it specifically because it is a glaring weakness.

You are right that it is not an easy save, and is not a simple play. Normally I wouldn't harp on it. I am being a little hard on him with that, I admit it.

But someone like Brodeur gives up that save (puck hits him in the pocket of the glove) maybe once a month. Niemi gives it up frequently, if he even stops the initial shot at all. Obviously, even the best goaltenders will miss a save now and then. The difference is that the good goaltenders don't give up more questionable goals a few minutes later. And again in the next game. And again in the next game. And.....

It's like the difference between Lincecum or Cain giving up a home run on a hanging curveball, and Barry Zito giving up a home run on a hanging curveball. With Timmy or Cain, that might be the only one they give up that month, so you forgive them a bad pitch or two because they are studs who don't do that often. You simply can't ask any pitcher to go an entire season without ever thrwoing a bad pitch. Simplu not possible. But with Zito, that probably wasn't even the first bad pitch he threw in that AB. So it's hard to say it's just "bad luck" when Zito goes 5 ER, 8H, 6 BB in 4 2/3 IP. That's not much of an abberation for him. So for him, it wasn't really "luck" that put a ball 10 rows up in the LF bleachers.


Last edited by SJGoalie32: 04-24-2011 at 03:42 AM.
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04-24-2011, 03:36 AM
  #69
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It doesn't happen with Cain. Period. He's a stone cold killer.

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04-24-2011, 03:44 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by SJGoalie32 View Post
Yeah. I'll agree with you to a point.

The one difference is that I harp on it specifically because it is a glaring weakness.

You are right that it is not an easy save, and is not a simple play. Normally I wouldn't harp on it. I am being a little hard on him with that, I admit it.

But someone like Brodeur gives up that save (puck hits him in the pocket of the glove) maybe once a month. Niemi gives it up frequently, if he even stops the initial shot at all. Obviously, even the best goaltenders will miss a save now and then. The difference is that the good goaltenders don't give up more questionable goals a few minutes later. And again in the next game. And again in the next game. And.....

It's like the difference between Lincecum or Cain giving up a home run on a hanging curveball, and Barry Zito giving up a home run on a hanging curveball. With Timmy or Cain, that might be the only one they give up that month, so you forgive them a bad pitch or two because they are studs who don't do that often. You simply can't ask any pitcher to go an entire season without ever thrwoing a bad pitch. Simplu not possible. But with Zito, that probably wasn't even the first bad pitch he threw in that AB. So it's hard to say it's just "bad luck" when Zito goes 5 ER, 8H, 6 BB in 4 2/3 IP. That's not much of an abberation for him. So for him, it wasn't really "luck" that put a ball 10 rows up in the LF bleachers.
Well, my response to that would be to blame Posey for calling a curve ball with Zito.

The only reason I'm willing to give Niemi that break is because two cardinal sins occurred prior to that goal. You don't turn the puck over at the attacking blue line and you give the goalie the shooter on the odd-man against. Neither sin is terribly awful on their own but both happening is inexcusable for professional level defensemen of Boyle and Murray's caliber. I guess, it's a matter of picking your battle on what is going to be the best course of action to fix the issue. You're not fixing Niemi's glove now. You can fix the turnover and you can fix Murray doing absolutely nothing in that situation.

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04-24-2011, 03:58 AM
  #71
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Well, my response to that would be to blame Posey for calling a curve ball with Zito.
lol


Here's my best personal assessment......

First goal: Maybe 25% at fault........shot with screen/deflection.....didn't exactly help himself with his own turnover and then making himself late getting back into the crease and set for the shot on the far side. Still probably would've given up that goal, but didn't help his cause.

Second goal: 40% his fault.......it was a 2-on-1 on which he saved the primary shot.....but Murray gave him the primary shot, he flat out mishandled it, and left a terrible rebound. Not an easy save, but when the opposing forward obliges you by shooting it right into your mitt, you can't afford to return the favor by giving it back. At least put it into one of the corners. Again, certainly not all on him, but he didn't do himself any favors.

Third goal: 80% his fault.......bad defensive turnover.....but geez, 40-foot wrist shot? If the guy walks in further alright. But that's a pre-game warmup shot.

I'd give him the benefit of the doubt on any one of those if he had played like Quick the rest of the game and/or beyond. But all 3? With zero other saves to complement? With multiple other shaky goals in the series?

I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. I really do. I can't. He doesn't have the track record or consistent performance to support it.

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04-24-2011, 04:50 AM
  #72
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I gave Niemi the benefit of dobt after his first stinker and he managed to bounce back from that pretty well. However this game was just horrendous and I want to see Nitty start game 6.

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04-24-2011, 05:50 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJGoalie32 View Post
Your opinion is wrong. Or at least the simplicity of it is not shared by pretty much anybody officially associated with any level of hockey above high school age anywhere.



In the New York-Washington game from earlier today, there were approximately 8 shots taken by the Rangers above Michael Neuvirth's leg pads.

Even assuming total perfection on the other 19 shots he faced down low, I will let you ruminate on what happens to teams with goaltenders who give up 8 goals per game.

There are steps a defense can take to limit the number of high shots. A defense cannot stop them all. It is too easy, and especially on the power play (reason #1A why the Sharks PK has suffered so much this year) to have time and space to exploit such an obvious weakness.



Everything? No (though that would be nice.....and historic).

As far as what did work versus what didn't......once again, I shall remind you that what didn't work was having an offense unable to score an average of more than 2 goals per game. When the Sharks offense exceed that paltry total, they've won every series since 2002. When they've failed to reach that mark, they've lost every playoff series they've ever played, EVER.

If the Sharks were sub-2.00 goals per game for in this series, they'd already be 0-5 in this series......or hitting off the ladies tees at Castlewood, since the NHL has a 4-game mercy rule.




2 reasons:

First, the Sharks are TERRIBLE at shooting high (it's why the Sharks were the only playoff team Niemi has ever been effective against)

And second, Quick is a GOOD goaltender who DID make quite a few saves up high, too. He's not great......not yet anyway, if he ever will be......but his toolbag is bigger than Niemi's.
1) I disagree. The best goaltenders come out of Europe, not from NA. They put greater emhpasis on stopping pucks down low. Try again.

2) For someone so knowledgable about goaltending, you'd figure what I mean by defending your goaltenders from ANY high shot but you don't seem to see what simple adjustments could be made to be successful.

Anytime you leave any shooter the time and space to pick his spot, you might as well flip a coin if you leave them the space to elavate the puck in the slot. Picking the near corner or going across the grain is at times the hardest ones to stop unless you really challenge the shot.

There are zero excuses for not identifying the most dangerous shooters on the ice and playing the shooter tight. The biggest problem the Sharks face is that coupled with poor support from the center unable to pick up the second forward and pin him to the boards effectively. Its like they are trying to catch greased pigs in their zone.

3) again with the goal scoring excuse? You already know my thoughts on that. The ability to win a tight low scoring playoff game is completely on the back of goaltending. Not on the fact that they didn't score 3 goals that's night.

Your team can score 1 goal and give up 2 soft goals.
Your team can score 3 goals and give up 4 soft goals.
you still lost completely on the fault of poor goaltending.

Your team can score 1 goal and give up none.
your team can score 3 goals and give up 2.
You still win on the merit that the team took what it takes to win the game.

I don't buy into this garbage number of average goals to win the game.
You have to score more then you let in. Period.
leave numbers and what they mean to philosophers.

4) you're insane if you think Quick > Nemo.
Quick has PLENTY of flaws in his game.
The defense in front of him make him look far better then he actually is.

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04-24-2011, 06:52 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Jesus Toews View Post


/thread
We have the best and worst percentage wise. I wonder who we should play.
I think both guys will due the job it's just that Nitty is better against LA for some reason. I think the staff fears that if Niitty does win do we keep riding him thus leaving Niemi on the bench. ???????????? I say each series is different and you have to put the best man for the job that fits the unique job specifications. I will support both but hope if we see a shaky beginning from whoever that we change in time so we can at least have a chance.

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04-24-2011, 06:56 AM
  #75
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I would go with Nitty. I think he's always been a man of big games. In the season 1999-2000, when he played in Finland in his native TPS, he backupped Fredrik Norrena - he who played later some seasons in Columbus - almost through the whole season althought he got quite much games. But in playoffs he replaced Norrena in the fourht game and led his team to championship by playing every remaining game. Also in the Olympic games 2006 he was really solid and there he was elected MVP. So, I feel that the Sharks should proceed with him in the net.

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