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Old
04-27-2011, 05:56 PM
  #101
Saugus
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Zajac can get Parise or Kovalchuk to 40 goals, and that's all I care about.

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04-27-2011, 05:59 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
I'll agree that Zajac isn't your guy, nor should we trade him.

But how many 80-100 point centers are in this league? This year was Stamkos and H. Sedin. From the previous year, you can add Crosby, Backstrom, Richards, Thornton, and Kopitar. Back one more year, add Malkin, Datsyuk, Getzlaf, Savard, Carter, and the other Richards. So in the last 3 years, there are 13. Not too bad.

How many are somewhat acquirable? I'll say Stamkos because of his RFA status, Richards, and Savard. Narrowed down to 3, at best.

I don't think Yzerman will let Stamkos go under any circumstances, and I don't think Savard is the guy you want given his contract and injury status. So you're left with one guy in Brad Richards.

Richards would be perfect for the Leafs honestly. I'm not sure if Kessel becomes the 40+ goal forward that you want him to be, but he definitely is the guy you should be going after. Aside from that, the only way you're gonna land this center is through drafting one. The NHL isn't exactly flooded with expendable "centers that can get Phil Kessel over 40 goals per year, while putting up between 80 - 100 points."
I agree, and outside of Brad Richards, there is no chance we start the season with the centerman we need. I believe that the Leafs can be a playoff team next year if they pick up where they left off, but I don't think we'll be launched to contender status until we fill a hole that's been empty since Mats Sundin left town.

I'm hoping that Joe Colborne will be ready to step in in 2012 - 2013, if we can't land Richards as a UFA, other than that I have no idea. I do know that posting proposals for players that don't fit the mold we are looking for is a waste of time for both fanbases.

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04-28-2011, 12:46 PM
  #103
Liferleafer
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Originally Posted by Saugus View Post
You're right, the numbers don't lie. Take a look at Jason's stats.

This was an off year for Zajac, and a career year for MacArthur. To say they are anywhere close in value because of that is ridiculous.
Yup...those are some awesome stats. Bottom line, playing on your best line he gets 44pts this year. Ya...i know, it was all the coach. He has been on your team for 5 seasons and his best 2 were 67 and 62pts. Beyond that he averages 39ish. Not exactly earth shattering.
Listen, i know because i'm a Leaf fan it is assumed i'm an idiot, not so. I know Zajac has more value, but to hammer on Leaf players just for fun is not really making a point. How about this, Zajac has played 5 seasons with the Devils (Obviously a better team than the leafs, right?) he has 249 points, average 50 points per year. Mikhail Grabovski has played 3 seasons, 2 of which were 59 games and 78 games for the inferior Leafs, and has 150 points for an average of 50 points per year. Why then is Grabovski said to be "at best" a second line center and Zajac is a "bonified" #1??

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04-28-2011, 12:51 PM
  #104
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Zajac is one of the best defensive centers in the league. Never heard anyone say that about Grabovski.

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04-28-2011, 01:00 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by MasterofGrond View Post
Zajac is one of the best defensive centers in the league. Never heard anyone say that about Grabovski.
Grabo has only had 1 minus year (-8) and that was his rookie season. Other than that, +3 and +14 on what a billion HF boards pros call the laughable Leafs. Put him with Parise or Kovi and they will bloat his +/- as well. Once again, bashing for sheer enjoyment, huh?

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04-28-2011, 01:29 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Grabo has only had 1 minus year (-8) and that was his rookie season. Other than that, +3 and +14 on what a billion HF boards pros call the laughable Leafs. Put him with Parise or Kovi and they will bloat his +/- as well. Once again, bashing for sheer enjoyment, huh?
I'm not bashing anything. Merely explaining one of the differences between Zajac and Grabovski.

And you replied by using +/- speculation to rebut my claim. Not exactly strong proof.

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04-28-2011, 01:31 PM
  #107
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I have a real hard time with the fact that some of the posters on here look at 1 season pt total stats and make a blanket statement about a players ability based on that, whether it be a good statistical season or a bad one. Good players have off years, and average players have career years, a players value is based on what they bring to a team as a whole, not as a 1 season point total.

Nik Backstrom is an elite scoring Centerman, I think everyone can agree on that, but this season he only had 65 points, so does that make him a 2nd line C with the same value as Krejci or Pavelski?

Zajac might not be an elite scoring Centre, but as pointed out in an earlier post, in the past 3 seasons there have only been 13 of those, so basically over half the league uses non-elite centres on there top line.

Zajac is a better all around Centre then anyone the Leafs currently have, he would instantly make them a better team. However he plays on the Devils top line so to pry him away from NJ, it would take a Centre upgrade (which the Leafs don't have), or a collection of talent too good for NJ to pass on. I don't buy the argument that he isn't what the Leafs need, if they could land him, they would plain and simple. And a collection of unproven AHL players, and average at best NHL players isn't going to get the job done.

I hope the Leafs continue to improve, I think it is good for the NHL when the biggest markets are successful (look at the positive impact of a good Chicago team). But these top line Centre's to Toronto for expendable pieces proposals have to stop, it makes a huge number of people (Leaf fans) look bad. Stay the coarse Toronto, develop your young players, be patient, draft well, sign support players as UFA's (the top tier players cost too much and mess with teams cap space), hope for some luck (no team becomes a contender without it), and in 3 years or so maybe the Leafs will be a dominate team.

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04-28-2011, 01:32 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Grabo has only had 1 minus year (-8) and that was his rookie season. Other than that, +3 and +14 on what a billion HF boards pros call the laughable Leafs. Put him with Parise or Kovi and they will bloat his +/- as well. Once again, bashing for sheer enjoyment, huh?
how is calling Grabovski "not elite defensivly", bashing him?

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04-28-2011, 01:50 PM
  #109
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I don't believe I said Zajac is a bona fide #1 centre. He plays on the our first line because he has great chemistry with each of our star wingers. That's all we really ask of him, he doesn't have to be a prodigious scorer to fulfil his role.

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04-28-2011, 01:50 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofGrond View Post
I'm not bashing anything. Merely explaining one of the differences between Zajac and Grabovski.

And you replied by using +/- speculation to rebut my claim. Not exactly strong proof.
Sorry, and i am sincere, i'm fairly new to HF and it just seems like Leaf bashing has become the nations #1 sport. Now, i can sometimes understand why, some of these proposals are a joke. So again, i apologise.

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04-28-2011, 01:52 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Boondock View Post
I have a real hard time with the fact that some of the posters on here look at 1 season pt total stats and make a blanket statement about a players ability based on that, whether it be a good statistical season or a bad one. Good players have off years, and average players have career years, a players value is based on what they bring to a team as a whole, not as a 1 season point total.

Nik Backstrom is an elite scoring Centerman, I think everyone can agree on that, but this season he only had 65 points, so does that make him a 2nd line C with the same value as Krejci or Pavelski?

Zajac might not be an elite scoring Centre, but as pointed out in an earlier post, in the past 3 seasons there have only been 13 of those, so basically over half the league uses non-elite centres on there top line.

Zajac is a better all around Centre then anyone the Leafs currently have, he would instantly make them a better team. However he plays on the Devils top line so to pry him away from NJ, it would take a Centre upgrade (which the Leafs don't have), or a collection of talent too good for NJ to pass on. I don't buy the argument that he isn't what the Leafs need, if they could land him, they would plain and simple. And a collection of unproven AHL players, and average at best NHL players isn't going to get the job done.

I hope the Leafs continue to improve, I think it is good for the NHL when the biggest markets are successful (look at the positive impact of a good Chicago team). But these top line Centre's to Toronto for expendable pieces proposals have to stop, it makes a huge number of people (Leaf fans) look bad. Stay the coarse Toronto, develop your young players, be patient, draft well, sign support players as UFA's (the top tier players cost too much and mess with teams cap space), hope for some luck (no team becomes a contender without it), and in 3 years or so maybe the Leafs will be a dominate team.
I agree with most of your post, and would like to clarify that at no time did I say the Leafs would pass on Zajac if the option were there. My point is that he doesn't fit the mold of what we are going to have to overpay for, so why make an offer at all?

These public addresses to Leaf nation regarding the caliber of our proposals needs to stop. Most of us don't waste our time drafting ideas that are sure to get torn to rat**** by other fanbases, but there are a small percentage of Leafs fans who just don't seem to get the message, they should be ignored in most cases, not provoked with inflammatory comments regarding the status of our team and it's players.

A few posts above yours, a Leafs fan posted career point totals for both Zajac and Grabovski, and determined that at this point they have both averaged 50 pts per season over their careers (this is not a single season statistic). To say that Zajac is light years beyond Grabo is obtuse. He's better in his own end, but doesn't contribute anything more offensively despite having all-star wingers.

If we can land Brad Richards as a UFA, terrific! Otherwise, I'm comfortable starting the season with the same line-up we finished with last season.

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04-28-2011, 01:54 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Sorry, and i am sincere, i'm fairly new to HF and it just seems like Leaf bashing has become the nations #1 sport. Now, i can sometimes understand why, some of these proposals are a joke. So again, i apologise.
Don't worry about it. I'd be lying if I said I've never become over-defensive on HF. Devils fans have been known to have a bit of a persecution complex, too.

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04-28-2011, 01:55 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tokenmetalhead View Post
To New Jersey:
Tyler Bozak
Carl Gunnarsson
Ben Scrivens

To Toronto:
Travis Zajac

Toronto trades two-way 3rd line C with high faceoff win%, a young PMD on the rise, and a decent goalie prospect that hasn't had under a .920 save % in years, for a guy who can be a top-6 scoring threat coming off a disappointing season. NJ also gains some cap relief from this deal even after Bozak and Gunnarsson are re-signed.

Bring it on!
Absolutely awful trade.... and when you're selling a forward based on Faceoff %, you know you're grasping at straws.

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Old
04-28-2011, 01:56 PM
  #114
Liferleafer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boondock View Post
I have a real hard time with the fact that some of the posters on here look at 1 season pt total stats and make a blanket statement about a players ability based on that, whether it be a good statistical season or a bad one. Good players have off years, and average players have career years, a players value is based on what they bring to a team as a whole, not as a 1 season point total.

Nik Backstrom is an elite scoring Centerman, I think everyone can agree on that, but this season he only had 65 points, so does that make him a 2nd line C with the same value as Krejci or Pavelski?

Zajac might not be an elite scoring Centre, but as pointed out in an earlier post, in the past 3 seasons there have only been 13 of those, so basically over half the league uses non-elite centres on there top line.

Zajac is a better all around Centre then anyone the Leafs currently have, he would instantly make them a better team. However he plays on the Devils top line so to pry him away from NJ, it would take a Centre upgrade (which the Leafs don't have), or a collection of talent too good for NJ to pass on. I don't buy the argument that he isn't what the Leafs need, if they could land him, they would plain and simple. And a collection of unproven AHL players, and average at best NHL players isn't going to get the job done.

I hope the Leafs continue to improve, I think it is good for the NHL when the biggest markets are successful (look at the positive impact of a good Chicago team). But these top line Centre's to Toronto for expendable pieces proposals have to stop, it makes a huge number of people (Leaf fans) look bad. Stay the coarse Toronto, develop your young players, be patient, draft well, sign support players as UFA's (the top tier players cost too much and mess with teams cap space), hope for some luck (no team becomes a contender without it), and in 3 years or so maybe the Leafs will be a dominate team.


I will not argue with any of your points, as you will see in my earlier replys, i said "no way NJ would or should do this deal" What got me going is when everyone starts saying that the Leafs entire roster is worthless. I for one am not looking to upgrade via the trade route. I would like to see some UFA signings ie" Leno, and i guess Richards, although i'm not sold on that one. So, again, i apologise.

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Old
04-28-2011, 03:13 PM
  #115
Boondock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I will not argue with any of your points, as you will see in my earlier replys, i said "no way NJ would or should do this deal" What got me going is when everyone starts saying that the Leafs entire roster is worthless. I for one am not looking to upgrade via the trade route. I would like to see some UFA signings ie" Leno, and i guess Richards, although i'm not sold on that one. So, again, i apologise.
No apologize needed this is an open hockey forum, without opinions it would be pretty boring - my post wasn't directed at anyone in particular, just a blanket statement and my own opinion.

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