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Management's Vision - Building Around Young Core Players

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Old
03-02-2011, 11:12 AM
  #1
The Goalie Mask
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Management's Vision - Building Around Young Core Players

Our Management needs to better identify what young core players we need to build a Stanley Cup winning team around.

In my opinion our current young core players are:

Price, Subban & Pac

We need to target a young star core center player through the draft or trades.

Until we don't do this we will not be a top tier team.

Our current prospects are good but not great. They are not core players, just secondary support players. We need great!

Our current good prospects;

Eller, Poulliot, Weber, DD, Leblanc,Tinordi, Palushaj, maybe Kristo

Once we identify our core young star players we can than build around them with depth and vet leadership.

Core players would be our untouchables in terms of trades. Everybody else are support players and tradeable. Right now we need a core young center and that should be the focus.

Right now Gauthier doesn't not have young core player vision and that is why he only does patch work trading. He is overating our good prospects and our vets. Our vets are good but are not core star players.

Our current good vets (not to old):

Cami, Gionta, Markov,Pleks,Gorges, Wisniewski

Again we need to build are team around star young cores that are the same age so that they can peak together.

All young core players should be untradeable. Everybody else can be tradeable for the right price.

Keep in mind that vets with good leadership and experience are also important to guide and help develop our core young players but they don't need to be untouchables if the right trade comes along to get a core young player. Especially if you are not serious cup contenders yet.

Gauthier much like Gainey plays it safe because he's vision of core players is not the winning formula. Hence no big trade improvements or no top star draft picks. That is why are team is not improving to be a top tier team that can be a serious cup contender.

On another not, we should always be drafting best player available so that we can either use them for our team or trade them for what we need. Best player available strategy allows us to be more successful when we we need to trade.

Lets hear other peoples opinions about management strategy of core young players and top tier team building.

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03-02-2011, 11:17 AM
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Eller, and just because you expect him to be a stud right out the gate doesn't mean management didn't already make that move.

/thread

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03-02-2011, 11:19 AM
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Eller is the centre that you speak of. It takes some longer than others. That's exactly why they got him

Add that to Palushaj, Kristo, Avtsin, Leblanc, DD, Conboy and White, we have a nice group of forwards that play different roles (not to mention Gallagher!). Tinordi is the only D we really have to look forward to.

So what we have to do is focus our efforts on defense. With Subban and Weber up here, our cupboard is empty.


Last edited by Ginu: 03-02-2011 at 11:44 AM.
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03-02-2011, 11:20 AM
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Great(superstars) players usually get drafted 1st overall and it's unlikely we'll get a #1 pick anytime soon.

In the next 3-4 years we will have a core of veterans in Price Gionta Cammy Plekanec Gomez(possibly?) Gorges plus whatever d-men we sign as top 4 from our group and potentially UFA's(Markov Wisniewski etc). We are adding young guys very good upside in Subban Weber Pacioretty Pouliot(?)and Eller. The development of those young guys plus a solid veteran group is what we will need to form a contending team.

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03-02-2011, 11:26 AM
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I would like us to somehow be able to draft Duncan Seimens this year. He is a d-man with the Saskatoon Blades in the WHL, and will be a good NHLer, in my opinion. Most people figure he'll go somewhere just outside the top 10, though. So he'll probably be gone by the time we pick.

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03-02-2011, 11:29 AM
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Focus on the OHL. I'll say it again, the best players are coming from that league.

Jenner or Puempel for me.

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03-02-2011, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nittany View Post
Focus on the OHL. I'll say it again, the best players are coming from that league.

Jenner or Puempel for me.
I doubt Timmins ignores the OHL...we have gotten Subban and others from there...but most of the studs coming out of there(Doughty Skinner Tavares Gagner Kane Stamkos etc) have been top 10 picks.

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03-02-2011, 11:56 AM
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The Goalie Mask
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
Eller is the centre that you speak of. It takes some longer than others. That's exactly why they got him

Add that to Palushaj, Kristo, Avtsin, Leblanc, DD, Conboy and White, we have a nice group of forwards that play different roles (not to mention Gallagher!). Tinordi is the only D we really have to look forward to.

So what we have to do is focus our efforts on defense. With Subban and Weber up here, our cupboard is empty.
Eller is good but he will not be a first line center star for us. I think that his top upside is as second line center. And that's only if Martin allows him to develope at the center position.

That brings up another point, I really dislike how Martin keeps playing our young players out of their natural positions. He should be letting them develop at their natural strong position. This would speed up the their development path and it would build confidence quicker. They did the same thing Poulliot. If management wants a winger draft or trade for a winger not a center.

They are a nice group of young prospects for supporting roles but none of them are top line material.


I agree, with you are cupboard is empty on defense. That is another area that we need to build up as well for the future.

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03-02-2011, 12:06 PM
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I think Bournival will surprise. He never gets mentioned in these threads, but the kid is a very, very solid two-way player.

His offense probably won't translate to the NHL very well, but I definitely see this kid as a potential staple on the 3rd line for years to come. He's got a work ethic similar to Desharnais that I love. Until Leblanc's recent crazy scoring streak (14pts in 6gp), Bournival was actually producing at a similar rate despite being 2-years younger.

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03-02-2011, 12:17 PM
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I realize that Plekanec isn't in the age group of the players you listed of young, core players; but I'm pretty sure he's as important to the team's future success as any of those big three youngsters.

I also posit that Pouliot has a chance to rise up to that status next year. And hopefully, does.

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03-02-2011, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
Eller is good but he will not be a first line center star for us. I think that his top upside is as second line center. And that's only if Martin allows him to develope at the center position.

That brings up another point, I really dislike how Martin keeps playing our young players out of their natural positions. He should be letting them develop at their natural strong position. This would speed up the their development path and it would build confidence quicker. They did the same thing Poulliot. If management wants a winger draft or trade for a winger not a center.

They are a nice group of young prospects for supporting roles but none of them are top line material.

I agree, with you are cupboard is empty on defense. That is another area that we need to build up as well for the future.

Pacc was not much better at the same age...

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03-02-2011, 12:18 PM
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The Goalie Mask
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Great(superstars) players usually get drafted 1st overall and it's unlikely we'll get a #1 pick anytime soon.

In the next 3-4 years we will have a core of veterans in Price Gionta Cammy Plekanec Gomez(possibly?) Gorges plus whatever d-men we sign as top 4 from our group and potentially UFA's(Markov Wisniewski etc). We are adding young guys very good upside in Subban Weber Pacioretty Pouliot(?)and Eller. The development of those young guys plus a solid veteran group is what we will need to form a contending team.
Star player usually do get drafted first overall but you will also finds stars from 2 to 10.

So our drafting strategy should be "best player avaible" rated by the general concensis of the scouts so that their trading value is higher when we are negotiating trades.

We need to be more aggressive at the drafting table and make trades to move up the draft to get our core players. Once we have our young core players than we can work on depth and supporting players. We are currently missing a core center player. So we need to lock that down.

I Agree with you that having young guys and a good group of vets will build a good contender. But hanging on to our current vets at the expense of not getting a top young center core will hurt us from being a top contender. We are not a top conterder right now. Our vets Gomez, Gionta will be 33-34 in 3 for 4 years.Will they be able to perform in 3 for 4 years?

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03-02-2011, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
Star player usually do get drafted first overall but you will also finds stars from 2 to 10.

So our drafting strategy should be "best player avaible" rated by the general concensis of the scouts so that their trading value is higher when we are negotiating trades.

We need to be more aggressive at the drafting table and make trades to move up the draft to get our core players. Once we have our young core players than we can work on depth and supporting players. We are currently missing a core center player. So we need to lock that down.

I Agree with you that having young guys and a good group of vets will build a good contender. But hanging on to our current vets at the expense of not getting a top young center core will hurt us from being a top contender. We are not a top conterder right now. Our vets Gomez, Gionta will be 33-34 in 3 for 4 years.Will they be able to perform in 3 for 4 years?
I believe Eller has the potential to be a 1st line center, but no one should expect it before he is 25 though. And seeing where the Habs draft every year, it is going to be a similar path for any other center they draft. Eller has the tools, lets see if they can develop him properly though.

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03-02-2011, 12:30 PM
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This year or next year, they will probably pick a goalie in the first/2nd round. Because after Price and Ramo (which we don't know what'll happen with him), the goalie pool is pretty bad.

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03-02-2011, 12:31 PM
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The Goalie Mask
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlappyMcGee View Post
I realize that Plekanec isn't in the age group of the players you listed of young, core players; but I'm pretty sure he's as important to the team's future success as any of those big three youngsters.

I also posit that Pouliot has a chance to rise up to that status next year. And hopefully, does.
Pleks is a great 2 way center and Pk player. I wouldn't classify him as a star but I agree that he's important to the team. He's young enough to be part of a Stanley Cup team in 3-4 years.

Pouliot has a great potential....Very skilled, big, great shot,good hands....but seems to be developing very slowly. I think Martin's approach with young players as alot to do with that. His natural position is center. Why don't they let him develop as a center?....I find alot of our young guys are constantly moved out of their natural positions which plays with their confidence and slows their development down

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03-02-2011, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
Pleks is a great 2 way center and Pk player. I wouldn't classify him as a star but I agree that he's important to the team. He's young enough to be part of a Stanley Cup team in 3-4 years.

Pouliot has a great potential....Very skilled, big, great shot,good hands....but seems to be developing very slowly. I think Martin's approach with young players as alot to do with that. His natural position is center. Why don't they let him develop as a center?....I find alot of our young guys are constantly moved out of their natural positions which plays with their confidence and slows their development down
cant have 7 C in the lineup, you need wingers to play with them... Eller, Pouliot, Pyatt, DD are all centers... if you play them at their natural position, what happen to Plek and Gomez then ?

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03-02-2011, 12:36 PM
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The Goalie Mask
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Pacc was not much better at the same age...
That's true....keep in mind he was picked to be a power forward which takes longer to develop...and I think his development was missmanaged intially....they should of let him get top minutes in the minors sooner...that did wonders for his confidence....They should do the same with Eller...let him play first line minutes in Hamilton as a center to build up his confidence.

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03-02-2011, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
That's true....keep in mind he was picked to be a power forward which takes longer to develop...and I think his development was missmanaged intially....they should of let him get top minutes in the minors sooner...that did wonders for his confidence....They should do the same with Eller...let him play first line minutes in Hamilton as a center to build up his confidence.
Difference with Eller is that he isnt starting in the NHL with Carbo... so all should be fine at the end.

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03-02-2011, 12:41 PM
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Everyone always complains about Timmins, we have no insight on what he recommends and what he gets recommended to him by the OTHER scouts lol, there's a reason we fired a bunch last year (or the year before) and kept Timmins.

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03-02-2011, 12:43 PM
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The Goalie Mask
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
cant have 7 C in the lineup, you need wingers to play with them... Eller, Pouliot, Pyatt, DD are all centers... if you play them at their natural position, what happen to Plek and Gomez then ?
Well that's the whole point. It allows to identify who is the best for the position and the weakest link you can now trade for what you need.....playing players to their weaknesses only breaks their confidence and slows down their development.

It forces the GM to start making proper trades that address the needs to strengthen the team

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03-02-2011, 12:44 PM
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Management's vision is to be mediocre and make play-off revenue with no vision of real long term success.

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03-02-2011, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
Well that's the whole point. It allows to identify who is the best for the position and the weakest link you can now trade for what you need.....playing players to their weaknesses only breaks their confidence and slows down their development.

It forces the GM to start making proper trades that address the needs to strengthen the team
It's more that they want to see if they could do better in a different position... and not all of them have big problems adapting. Pouliot is a good example of someone doing fine on the wings (even though he was drafted as a C). Pyatt isnt any better or worse since he switched to wings.

and lest not forget Markov was drafted as a Center...

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03-02-2011, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Pacc was not much better at the same age...
Pacs is the same age. They're both from the 2007 draft.

Bournival, Kristo, Nattinen, and others all provide the same thing. Two-way play. It's nice, but we don't need our entire cupboard full of it.

Nattinen is 6'2 and hits anything that moves, but he's a terrible skater*
Bournival was just drafted and thus is the youngest, so more than likely the farthest away from being ready.
Kristo is the smallest, but in the World Juniors has been pretty key.


Gallagher is a small, speedy, skilled forward who doesn't take crap. A comparison could be Brad Marchand.

Gabriel Dumont is another small, but tough as nails guy. In the future he could be a Scott Nichol.

This summer is pretty much make, or break for Trunev (one of, it not our most skilled prospect) and Yemelin. If neither of them come over this year, then Yemelin more than likely never will and Trunev will be all but lost.

Tinordi is the type of defenseman we need. Not only did we trade up for him, but he's 1 of 3 defenseman we have of that type. Him, Pateryn and Yemelin. Considering he apparently had a slow transition to the OHL and now is just getting still puts him as our best defensive prospect ( Subban, and Weber are graduates imo) followed by Nash, who seems like a poor skater, well, you can see where our weakness lies.

We have Conboy/Schultz as our bottom 6 players who seem like they can play, forecheck and fight if need be. However, together, they could be a pretty slow/defensive reliability line. We really only need one.

Goaltending depth blows too. Price (NHL) Auld (NHL) Ramo (KHL) Simila (Finnish Elite League ?) Delams (ECHL/AHL) Sanford (AHL) and MacIntyre (AHL) 3 of them are UFA, Ramo is an RFA and probably won't come over for us. I think Delmas is an RFA ?

Colorado is looking for a goalie. Given Ramo's great stats in the KHL, we should be able to get something ok. Maybe they'd do Ryan Wilson for Ramo + Conditional pick if Ramo doesn't come over. Not sure if the honeymoon is over between Wilson and the avs yet.

With this draft, our 1st could land us one of.

Mika Zibanejad (could be the first line centre, but might be a more physical Eller)
Mark McNeil (could end up being a Mike Fisher type)
Nicklas Jensen - An hfer compared him to Jeff Carter in the O
Jaimeson Olesiak (could be a poor man's Tyler Myers, or a poor man's pylon)
David Musil.

Joel Armia - Should go top 15, but if he slips the habs could trade up for him if they like him enough, but that's a long stretch. Too big and too skilled to pass up on.

Basically, if the habs get lucky, we could add a real solid prospect to our pool.

Core prospects (Players currently not on the habs)

Louis Leblanc
Alexander Avitsin
Jarred Tinordi
Brendan Gallagher
Ian Schultz/Andrew Conboy.
+ This year's first round draftee

HM Andreas Engqvist (You need a defensive centreman.

Young players on the habs:
Carey Price
Pk Subban
Max Pacioretty
Lars Eller
Benoit Pouliot.
Ryan White

HM: David Desharnais - Guy is tremendously skilled and knows he had to work his ass off to get to the NHL. I wouldn't trade him for a ticket stub and peanuts, but if a fair offer came along, I'd be willing to take it.

Veterans:
Mike Cammalleri
Brian Gionta
Andrei Markov*
Josh Gorges
Tomas Plekanec
James Wisniewski*

We could lose 2 of them. Hopefully Gauthier doesn't have Bob Gainey mentality and waits till the end of the season. If we can re-sign Wiz, and Markov, I'd look to deal next year's first this year in either a package for a solid player (preferably 24, 25 range), or someone's first this year. Either a stretch, since it would be a while before the other team could get anything from the deal.

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03-02-2011, 12:59 PM
  #24
The Goalie Mask
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
It's more that they want to see if they could do better in a different position... and not all of them have big problems adapting. Pouliot is a good example of someone doing fine on the wings (even though he was drafted as a C). Pyatt isnt any better or worse since he switched to wings.

and lest not forget Markov was drafted as a Center...
Time is of essence when building a competitive team & developing young players with pottential.

It okay to experiment once a blue moon but not regularly as the Martin does all the time especially with young players that have already talent and success at their natural position.

Eller & Poulliot are both excellent examples....

They experimented with Eller and now finally they put him back at his natural position and hes playing much better with AK

With Poulliot...All his success was always at center but they have never tried to play him at his natural position....and development has been very slow and his confidence has taken along time to develop.....

Another point with these 2 players....they should not being playing on third & fourth lines with nonskilled players...if they can't lock down a top 6 role they should be playing in Hamilton on top lines in their natural position so that we can speed up their development

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03-02-2011, 01:03 PM
  #25
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I would build around:

Pacioretty - Plekanec - Gionta
Cammalleri - Leblanc - Kristo
xxxxx - Eller - Palushaj
Conboy - White - Schultz

Markov - xxxxx
Tinordi - Subban
xxxxx - xxxxx

Price
xxxxx

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