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Troy Brouwer to the Leafs

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Old
04-26-2011, 07:06 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Brouwer is 6'3 215 and excels in the dirty areas of the rink. That's exactly the kind of player Kessel needs on his left wing.
Lupul also excels in the dirty areas of the rink, he has a nose for the net, and he has a very good skill set. He's the perfect player to play left wing on the Kessel line.

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04-27-2011, 12:32 AM
  #27
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A guy who can pop 20 goals and throw 250+ hits in a season is worth a lot more than a mid-round pick.

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04-27-2011, 01:08 AM
  #28
seanlinden
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You've really gotta love the Leafs fans turning down a big powerforward that we've desparately needed because he'll get in the way of Frattin's ice time (a prospect with 1 NHL game experience).

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Originally Posted by QMJHLfollower View Post
Lupul also excels in the dirty areas of the rink, he has a nose for the net, and he has a very good skill set. He's the perfect player to play left wing on the Kessel line.
Some more wishful thinking by Leafs nation. Lupul is by no stretch of the imagination a guy who succeeds in the dirty areas of the rink no matter how much Leafs nation wants him to be. He's a guy that relies on open ice in the slot, much like Phil Kessel, which makes him a horrible fit.

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04-27-2011, 01:16 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Brouwer is 6'3 215 and excels in the dirty areas of the rink. That's exactly the kind of player Kessel needs on his left wing.
His offensive upside is not that of a top line winger. Colby Armstrong is a big guy who can bang and crash and work well in the dirty areas, but he would be quite out of place on the top line. Brouwer is better than Armstrong offensively, but I would rather have Lupul (who is good along the boards) with his superior offensive ability on Kessel's line.

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04-27-2011, 01:31 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by MoreMogilny View Post
His offensive upside is not that of a top line winger. Colby Armstrong is a big guy who can bang and crash and work well in the dirty areas, but he would be quite out of place on the top line. Brouwer is better than Armstrong offensively, but I would rather have Lupul (who is good along the boards) with his superior offensive ability on Kessel's line.
This is exactly what's wrong with Leafs nation -- people focused on his "level" as a player rather than whether or not he fullfills a need for our team and allows the others around him to utilize their skills to their full ability.. Brouwer does that, and for a very reasonable cost, and unlike Armstrong, he is skilled enough to compliment highly skilled players. No, he's not that much more skilled than Armstrong, and no he's not more skilled than Lupul, but the incremental amount of skill he has on Armstrong and the incremental amount of size / board presence he has on Lupul makes all the difference.

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04-27-2011, 01:40 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
This is exactly what's wrong with Leafs nation -- people focused on his "level" as a player rather than whether or not he fullfills a need for our team. Brouwer does that, and for a very reasonable cost, and unlike Armstrong, he is skilled enough to compliment highly skilled players. No, he's not that much more skilled than Armstrong, and no he's not more skilled than Lupul, but the incremental amount of skill he has on Armstrong and the incremental amount of size / board presence he has on Lupul makes all the difference.
"Level" does matter to an extent. No, not every player needs to have exact parameters to where they fit on a team, but if someone isn't skilled enough to be playing on the top line, he probably shouldn't be in that position, even though he may meet a specific need.

Am I saying that I love the idea of Lupul as a permanent solution on Kessel's line? No, not at all. I do agree with you in that we need someone that can do a bit more of the dirty work to substitute for Kessel's lack of board presence, but is the increased physical stature of Brouwer over Lupul enough to make up for his lack of offensive ability?

I just think that Lupul's albeit limited grinding ability is suitable, and frankly a better option to have than going out and spending additional assets to acquire a different player that in the grand scheme of things, probably isn't going to make enough of a difference when you factor in the difference in offensive ability.

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04-27-2011, 01:43 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
This is exactly what's wrong with Leafs nation -- people focused on his "level" as a player rather than whether or not he fullfills a need for our team and allows the others around him to utilize their skills to their full ability.. Brouwer does that, and for a very reasonable cost, and unlike Armstrong, he is skilled enough to compliment highly skilled players. No, he's not that much more skilled than Armstrong, and no he's not more skilled than Lupul, but the incremental amount of skill he has on Armstrong and the incremental amount of size / board presence he has on Lupul makes all the difference.
He's just being horribly underrated in this thread. Sjostrom and a 4th? He was 78th amongst forwards in terms of goals last year, and 134th this year while placing 15th last year in hits and 5th this year. That is a unique skillset

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04-27-2011, 01:49 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by MoreMogilny View Post
"Level" does matter to an extent. No, not every player needs to have exact parameters to where they fit on a team, but if someone isn't skilled enough to be playing on the top line, he probably shouldn't be in that position, even though he may meet a specific need.

Am I saying that I love the idea of Lupul as a permanent solution on Kessel's line? No, not at all. I do agree with you in that we need someone that can do a bit more of the dirty work to substitute for Kessel's lack of board presence, but is the increased physical stature of Brouwer over Lupul enough to make up for his lack of offensive ability?

I just think that Lupul's albeit limited grinding ability is suitable, and frankly a better option to have than going out and spending additional assets to acquire a different player that in the grand scheme of things, probably isn't going to make enough of a difference when you factor in the difference in offensive ability.
To a certain extent yes, but when you're dealing with a 1-dimensional player like Kessel, fit is much more important. Brouwer is absolutely skilled enough to play with Kessel, because what he lacks in scoring ability, he makes up for by creating time & space for a guy who is deadly given it.

Lupul's highly limited grinding ability (below NHL average) is nowhere near suitable. It may lead to a few goals from the forwards on that line, but it causes major problems from a defensive standpoint (the only way to keep Kessel in the + is to keep him in the offensive zone) and in getting production from the blueline (another major problem for us this year). Brouwer will keep Kessel in the offensive zone and help generate offence from the point, Lupul won't do either of those things.

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04-27-2011, 02:06 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
To a certain extent yes, but when you're dealing with a 1-dimensional player like Kessel, fit is much more important. Brouwer is absolutely skilled enough to play with Kessel, because what he lacks in scoring ability, he makes up for by creating time & space for a guy who is deadly given it.

Lupul's highly limited grinding ability (below NHL average) is nowhere near suitable. It may lead to a few goals from the forwards on that line, but it causes major problems from a defensive standpoint (the only way to keep Kessel in the + is to keep him in the offensive zone) and in getting production from the blueline (another major problem for us this year). Brouwer will keep Kessel in the offensive zone and help generate offence from the point, Lupul won't do either of those things.
If the scoring depth of the Leafs overall was a bit better than it is, perhaps the idea of having someone like Brouwer on the top line with Kessel would be a bit more enviable. I have watched a decent amount of Chicago this year (regular season) and often times he was used on a line with Toews and Kane, and worked well in the type of role he would be in here.

The problem there, obviously, is that the Leafs don't have anyone on the level of Kane or Toews, and you could even argue if anyone on the Leafs is as good as Sharp or Hossa either. The angle I'm coming from is, if we don't have the type of depth that a team like Chicago has, then we should probably be looking for someone with higher offensive upside than Brouwer.

I can't say I really disagree much about Lupul though. I think his board work is decent, and he can be rather aggressive at times, which is nice, but you're right in saying it's not enough, and his defensive zone play certainly isn't up to par. Ideally, he should be in more of a second line supporting role (which he could probably thrive in).

I don't mind Lupul as more of a temporary solution, and I think he has room to improve on what we have seen so far in his tenure as a Leaf. He was still dealing with the after effects of his injury, so I don't think we saw him at 100%. Either way, I think we are stuck with him, and his salary for the duration as I don't see Burke moving him out after he addressed how he felt about Lupul's ability to be a top line player.

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04-27-2011, 02:11 AM
  #35
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I have to think the top 3 Leafs lines will be:

Lupul - FA/trade - Kessel
MacArthur - Grabovski - Kulemin
Kadri - Bozak - Armstrong

I like Brouwer, good 3rd line winger, but I don't see where he fits on the Leafs. Troy may be big, but he's just not that talented offensively, he'd be a better 3rd line winger than Kadri if all we were worried about was winning now, but Kadri needs to develop in the NHL and the 3rd line LW is the best place for him to do so. All of our other top 9 wingers (Kessel, Lupul, Mac, Kule and Army) are better than Brouwer.

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04-27-2011, 02:58 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by ponder View Post
I have to think the top 3 Leafs lines will be:

Lupul - FA/trade - Kessel
MacArthur - Grabovski - Kulemin
Kadri - Bozak - Armstrong

I like Brouwer, good 3rd line winger, but I don't see where he fits on the Leafs. Troy may be big, but he's just not that talented offensively, he'd be a better 3rd line winger than Kadri if all we were worried about was winning now, but Kadri needs to develop in the NHL and the 3rd line LW is the best place for him to do so. All of our other top 9 wingers (Kessel, Lupul, Mac, Kule and Army) are better than Brouwer.
at 25 he's not a 'winning now" move he's a peice that fits our current age group tremendously

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04-27-2011, 03:35 AM
  #37
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God no to trading him to Toronto

After seeing the garbage we got for Steeger I have no desire to see what Bowman would get from Burke this time

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04-27-2011, 03:49 AM
  #38
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Brouwer and Campbell for Komi and 2nd (12)

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04-27-2011, 04:04 AM
  #39
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I don't see where Brouws will fit in with the Leafs long term? The Leafs I think have the small pieces there they need top-end cornerstones now, either through the draft (Yakupov, Galchenyuk, I don't know, look forward to something next draft) or through opening up their busty wallet.

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04-27-2011, 09:37 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by MoreMogilny View Post
If the scoring depth of the Leafs overall was a bit better than it is, perhaps the idea of having someone like Brouwer on the top line with Kessel would be a bit more enviable. I have watched a decent amount of Chicago this year (regular season) and often times he was used on a line with Toews and Kane, and worked well in the type of role he would be in here.

The problem there, obviously, is that the Leafs don't have anyone on the level of Kane or Toews, and you could even argue if anyone on the Leafs is as good as Sharp or Hossa either. The angle I'm coming from is, if we don't have the type of depth that a team like Chicago has, then we should probably be looking for someone with higher offensive upside than Brouwer.

I can't say I really disagree much about Lupul though. I think his board work is decent, and he can be rather aggressive at times, which is nice, but you're right in saying it's not enough, and his defensive zone play certainly isn't up to par. Ideally, he should be in more of a second line supporting role (which he could probably thrive in).

I don't mind Lupul as more of a temporary solution, and I think he has room to improve on what we have seen so far in his tenure as a Leaf. He was still dealing with the after effects of his injury, so I don't think we saw him at 100%. Either way, I think we are stuck with him, and his salary for the duration as I don't see Burke moving him out after he addressed how he felt about Lupul's ability to be a top line player.
Scoring depth has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion -- it's all about what will make Kessel more effective when he's on the ice -- that is to say -- improving the +/- of Kessel and whomever plays with him. When faced with the option a guy who's going to take away scoring chances by also going to the slot, not cycle the puck well, not crash the crease well, and do nothing to create space for Kessel (or point opportunities), or a guy who protects the puck well, crashes the crease, and creates space for Kessel and the defenceman -- the choice is obvious.

Kane & Toews are great players, but they're really not THAT great. Kessel can certainly be compared to Patrick Kane in terms of overall skill level, and our centre situation is going to have to improve regardless.

We should be looking for somebody with higher offensive upside than Brouwer -- but not if that offensive upside sacrifices the size / cycle game like Lupul does. When you admit that nobody better is going to become available, Brouwer is a darn good option.

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04-27-2011, 12:48 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
God no to trading him to Toronto

After seeing the garbage we got for Steeger I have no desire to see what Bowman would get from Burke this time
You'll take Lebda and a 6th and you'll like it.

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04-27-2011, 02:02 PM
  #42
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lupul and kessel have shown excellent chemistry thus far. sticking a grinder on kessels line was proven unsuccessfull many times this past year and kessel broke out of his slump when lupul was added to his lin. this was hardly a coincidence.

it doesn't make sense to take lupul off in favour of a less skilled winger to make kessel's line better defensively. that should be the job of whover's playing center next year. lupul is pretty good on the boards and hardly relies on the open slot for all his chances. alot of his goals came from crashing the net and grabbing rebounds. infact, he's one of the only leafs that actually screen the goalie, which has been one of the leafs biggest weaknesses in recent years. he may not be the powerforward everyone wants, but has the offensive instinct, size and hands to capitalize on chances he gets (unlike bozak). you don't need to be a power foward to open space for another player, having another scoring threat also opens space for guys like kessel.

kessel and lupul's production are proof that kessel is much more successfull with a player like lupul. he also isn't anywhere near as bad defensively as some posters in this thread make him out to be. luckily brian burke isn't a total moron and will be looking for a center instead of trading for more wingers that we don't need.

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04-27-2011, 05:05 PM
  #43
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God no to trading him to Toronto

After seeing the garbage we got for Steeger I have no desire to see what Bowman would get from Burke this time
all the more reason for us to want to pry him away from you. He'd likely cost us less.

I would do the Versteeg trade again with the hawks turning him into a 1st and 3rd made him a solid acqusition

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04-27-2011, 05:08 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by lance uppercut 83 View Post
lupul and kessel have shown excellent chemistry thus far. sticking a grinder on kessels line was proven unsuccessfull many times this past year and kessel broke out of his slump when lupul was added to his lin. this was hardly a coincidence.

it doesn't make sense to take lupul off in favour of a less skilled winger to make kessel's line better defensively. that should be the job of whover's playing center next year. lupul is pretty good on the boards and hardly relies on the open slot for all his chances. alot of his goals came from crashing the net and grabbing rebounds. infact, he's one of the only leafs that actually screen the goalie, which has been one of the leafs biggest weaknesses in recent years. he may not be the powerforward everyone wants, but has the offensive instinct, size and hands to capitalize on chances he gets (unlike bozak). you don't need to be a power foward to open space for another player, having another scoring threat also opens space for guys like kessel.

kessel and lupul's production are proof that kessel is much more successfull with a player like lupul. he also isn't anywhere near as bad defensively as some posters in this thread make him out to be. luckily brian burke isn't a total moron and will be looking for a center instead of trading for more wingers that we don't need.
I don't want to bring Brouwer in to play with Kessel I want to bring him in to play with Armstrong and if Mac gets traded and I think he might I want to move Kadri up to play with Grabo and Kuliemin thus not hurting his development either.

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