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05-03-2011, 11:32 AM
  #401
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Ill try to respond the best I can, but I have to admit Im a bit dizzy from the spinning being done regarding our prospect base.

Anyway, as others have pointed out, theres no large movement here to delegitimize the prospects/younger players. I think we can all agree we have great goaltending, a very good defense, and some good 2nd-4th line forwards. The whole issue was supposed to be about how/why the Rangers lack a top end homegrown forward talent when the majority of teams in the NHL have done so over the past several years.

I dont understand how "The Rangers have drafted better since the lockout" addresses that issue. I also dont understand why some people cant accept this fact for what it is and debate it intelligently. Resorting back to talking points about Gordie Clark or accusing people of hating on the prospects doesnt even remotely broach the issue. Neither does resorting back to a dead prospect or calling other team's "lucky."

Because the fact remains that the Rangers havent developed a legitimate first line forward in God knows how long, while every other team in the division has at least one.
Excellent post...I just went through 13 pages of this at the moment 16 page thread...nobody has **** on any of the prospects...I saw someone post that in 3 years we could be Cup Contenders that will only be 20 years after our last Cup win...I guess I should be doing cartwheels.

I don't expect people to agree with my POV that we should use some of the great prospects I keep hearing about to either move up in the draft or get a young player NHL'er who has the tools...but unlike the "Prospectors" I don't put them down for their POV...it seems if you aren't a "Prospector" then you're a delusional, Clark hating,
fake fan...well I'm sorry I'm tired of people telling me what a "real fan" should think.

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05-03-2011, 11:35 AM
  #402
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Since you have mIsquoted me, as the original poster, let me set you straight. I said up front that goaltending and defense are excellent. Our secondary players are very good. Iquestioned why we have zero top end talent.

You can moan all you want but you cannot disagree.
The defense isn't part of the top-end talent? As far as top-end forwards go it's simple: Since our little renaissance started in 04 we just haven't really focused on forwards too much in the first round. In 04 we took Korpedo, 07 Cherepanov, and 09 Kreider.

Korpikoski didn't turn out too well, but there wasn't a marquee top-end forward to grab there (Zajac would've been nice, but he's no high end guy). Cherepanov died. Not much else to say about that. And Kreider looks good and hopefully he's part of the answer. Most of the high end forwards get taken higher than we've had a chance to draft anyway.

The focus on defense has given us an excellent young defensive core. You said it yourself. We have to wait on see on our young forward prospects, but the signs are encouraging. In the mean time, it's not unlikely that Gaborik will return to form. Richards would certainly help too. I also think healthy seasons from Cally and Dubi and improvements for Anisimov and Stepan could be reasonably expected to help. If we're lucky, Del Zotto will bounce back too.

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05-03-2011, 11:36 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Ill try to respond the best I can, but I have to admit Im a bit dizzy from the spinning being done regarding our prospect base.

Anyway, as others have pointed out, theres no large movement here to delegitimize the prospects/younger players. I think we can all agree we have great goaltending, a very good defense, and some good 2nd-4th line forwards. The whole issue was supposed to be about how/why the Rangers lack a top end homegrown forward talent when the majority of teams in the NHL have done so over the past several years.

I dont understand how "The Rangers have drafted better since the lockout" addresses that issue. I also dont understand why some people cant accept this fact for what it is and debate it intelligently. Resorting back to talking points about Gordie Clark or accusing people of hating on the prospects doesnt even remotely broach the issue. Neither does resorting back to a dead prospect or calling other team's "lucky."

Because the fact remains that the Rangers havent developed a legitimate first line forward in God knows how long, while every other team in the division has at least one.
Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Semin, Backstrom, JVR, Tavares...these guys were high draft picks.

We haven't had the luxury of a #1 or #2 overall pick when a Generational talent was draft eligible.

We do need a high end forward. There is no debating it. That's what signing Richards would be about.

Would i rather have that player via the draft? Absolutely. But its not realistic to expect Clark to find that guy in the middle of the first round. The most you could realistically expect is a guy with top six upside.

We have a guy who could score 40 goals if he's consistent in his effort.

Richards would provide us with an elite playmaking center and a leader that has been there and done it, literally winning the Cup and Conn Smythe.

The Flyers, Penguins, Black Hawks, Sharks, Devils... even with star homegrown talent acquired more star talent externally.

So we lack the homegrown high end forward, we look externally. Does it make THAT much of a difference? Those guys get paid either way.

I can't say Sather has been good in the free agent department. He hasn't been overall. Some decent signings here and there.

But as far as trades and the draft since 2004, 6-7 years ago, he's been doing a very good job.

A few smart moves this summer and this team can go deep in the playoffs. The league is tight. No one is running away with it. The mighty Caps and Flyers aren't looking so hot right now. And as some have said the series with the Caps was closer then the result would have you believe. Several on XM like Boomer Gordon said the Rangers wore the Caps down mentally.

The quality of depth we have is very solid. The top line needs work. Not one person on here will debate that.

Again, x-Richards-Gaborik could go up against any top line in the league with assurance that our depth will wear out our opposition.

The depth is a result of solid drafting without the luxury of a gift generational talent. That can't be denied or scoffed at either.

Richards is spending some good time in New York the last couple weeks according to his twitter. Get him on board and the entire dynamic of the team changes. Power Play improves, top line becomes legit, younger guys like Stepan and Anisimov slot into more comfortable roles.

The Rangers can realistically be a top 4 seed in the East next spring.

A legit Power Play could do wonders for a team that had one of the better PK in the league.

If Del Zotto isn't ready to fill in on the 3rd pair and play the point on the PP, then they'll need to address that issue for next season.

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05-03-2011, 11:40 AM
  #404
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There's a way to laud the team for actually putting together a series of drafts that actually produce core guys. It's all about the process. They've been churning them out since the 2004 draft. You can congratulate the Rangers' scouting department on stringing together a series of productive drafts. It's different from pointing to one pick that we don't even know about yet and saying, "Ah ha! This proves the franchise is going nowhere fast." You might have a point if they had just had a bunch of bad drafts. They haven't. We've got more and more young guys making the team every year. To shut your eyes and cover your ears to that is just absurdity.[/QUOTE]

That wasn't the posters point...he was pointing out the irony of SSM stating you can't laud the pick until you see how it pans out, while at the same time almost guaranteeing Mac will be an NHL'er...here is the quote for context.

However, there's no way to really critisize the pick until we see how he pans out.
He'll be an NHL player, though.

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05-03-2011, 11:53 AM
  #405
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Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
Excellent post...I just went through 13 pages of this at the moment 16 page thread...nobody has **** on any of the prospects...I saw someone post that in 3 years we could be Cup Contenders that will only be 20 years after our last Cup win...I guess I should be doing cartwheels.
That's a problematic mentality. Smushing together everything post-cup is pointless. That's three eras of management directions at the very least. You've got Smith trading every prospect and pick in sight for over-the-hill veterans lumped with Glen Sather's attempt to buy a championship pre-lockout lumped with the post-lockout build through the draft strategy. Everything prior to the 2004 draft was a completely different era. The ascensions of Clark and Tortorella have really solidified that and shifted us away from the Drury, Gomez, and Redden group.

If we are cup contenders in the next three years you should be doing cartwheels. Anytime your team is a cup contender you should be thrilled. If it comes true, then I'll sure as hell be celebrating. I've never seen a contending Rangers squad, unless you count 97 (which I don't).

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Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
I don't expect people to agree with my POV that we should use some of the great prospects I keep hearing about to either move up in the draft or get a young player NHL'er who has the tools...but unlike the "Prospectors" I don't put them down for their POV...it seems if you aren't a "Prospector" then you're a delusional, Clark hating,
fake fan...well I'm sorry I'm tired of people telling me what a "real fan" should think.
Nobody's calling you a fake fan. It's just nuts to think we should trade our best prospects for veterans at this stage. That's something to look at doing if you're already a contender and looking for that piece to put you over the top. Doing it before then would just set us back. No one is going to put a franchise forward on the market without expecting a massive overpayment in return anyway. Ditto for the top picks in any draft with sure-fire superstars in it. Those picks just don't get dealt.


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05-03-2011, 12:02 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
That wasn't the posters point...he was pointing out the irony of SSM stating you can't laud the pick until you see how it pans out, while at the same time almost guaranteeing Mac will be an NHL'er...here is the quote for context.

However, there's no way to really critisize the pick until we see how he pans out.
He'll be an NHL player, though.
To be fair, even Sting, who hated the pick, has said it's likely he'll be an NHL player. He just thinks he'll be a bad NHL player. Either way, BRB cited McIlrath as supposed proof that nothing has really changed in this organization. To then go back and say nobody's ******** on the youth movement after that is disingenuous to say the least.

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05-03-2011, 12:08 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
Excellent post...I just went through 13 pages of this at the moment 16 page thread...nobody has **** on any of the prospects...I saw someone post that in 3 years we could be Cup Contenders that will only be 20 years after our last Cup win...I guess I should be doing cartwheels.

I don't expect people to agree with my POV that we should use some of the great prospects I keep hearing about to either move up in the draft or get a young player NHL'er who has the tools...but unlike the "Prospectors" I don't put them down for their POV...it seems if you aren't a "Prospector" then you're a delusional, Clark hating,
fake fan...well I'm sorry I'm tired of people telling me what a "real fan" should think.
You do realize how fetching and how hard it is to win the Stanley Cup. 20 years isn't that long in this regard.

The Canucks, Kings, Sabres, Capitals have been in the league 40 years at least and have yet to win the Cup once.

The Black Hawks won for the first time in nearly 50 years.

The Leafs haven't won in how long? 60s?

Bruins? 70s?

If the league went through a period of time where every team in the league won the Cup, it would take one team at least 30 years.

Even if you built a team with generational talent at every position on the roster, there would be no guarantees.

Your not making yourself look better then anyone else by diminishing the realistic possibility that this team could contend very soon.

They can't guarantee you a Cup. No team can. What they can do is put a team on the ice that can contend. We aren't far from that.

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05-03-2011, 12:15 PM
  #408
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That's a problematic mentality. Smushing together everything post-cup is pointless. That's three eras of management directions at the very least. You've got Smith trading every prospect and pick in sight for over-the-hill veterans lumped with Glen Sather's attempt to buy a championship pre-lockout lumped with the post-lockout build through the draft strategy. Everything prior to the 2004 draft was a completely different era. The ascensions of Clark and Tortorella have really solidified that and shifted us away from the Drury, Gomez, and Redden group.

If we are cup contenders in the next three years you should be doing cartwheels. Anytime your team is a cup contender you should be thrilled. If it comes true, then I'll sure as hell be celebrating. I've never seen a contending Rangers squad, unless you count 97 (which I don't).



Nobody's calling you a fake fan. It's just nuts to think we should trade our best prospects for veterans at this stage. That's something to look at doing if you're already a contender and looking for that piece to put you over the top. Doing it before then would just set us back. No one is going to put a franchise forward on the market without expecting a massive overpayment in return anyway. Ditto for the top picks in any draft with sure-fire superstars in it. Those picks just don't get dealt.
I did not say we should trade a propsect for a vet...I said we should trade some of the prospects for a YOUNG NHL'er who has the tools...I am against trading for guys on or close to the back end of their careers, and I'm not for signing Richards, I think he'll cost too much and he is gonna want a long term deal to retire on...so if Sather gives hinm a 6 year deal we will have a 37 year old making big bucks.

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05-03-2011, 12:16 PM
  #409
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There's a way to laud the team for actually putting together a series of drafts that actually produce core guys. It's all about the process. They've been churning them out since the 2004 draft. You can congratulate the Rangers' scouting department on stringing together a series of productive drafts. It's different from pointing to one pick that we don't even know about yet and saying, "Ah ha! This proves the franchise is going nowhere fast." You might have a point if they had just had a bunch of bad drafts. They haven't. We've got more and more young guys making the team every year. To shut your eyes and cover your ears to that is just absurdity.
That wasn't the posters point...he was pointing out the irony of SSM stating you can't laud the pick until you see how it pans out, while at the same time almost guaranteeing Mac will be an NHL'er...here is the quote for context.

However, there's no way to really critisize the pick until we see how he pans out.
He'll be an NHL player, though.[/QUOTE]

McIlrath can make it to the NHL and not be much in the NHL.

So, re reading what i said, it makes every bit of sense.

There is no way to criticize the pick because we don't know how he will pan out. He will be in the NHL though.


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05-03-2011, 12:17 PM
  #410
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What they can do is put a team on the ice that can contend. We aren't far from that.
Totally disagree.

Your not making yourself look better then anyone else by over inflating the long shot possibility that this team could contend very soon.

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05-03-2011, 12:20 PM
  #411
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I agree that the Rangers should have pulled at least a couple of top scorers in the Sather era.

However, the cure proposed by the fans here is the opposite of what's needed. A team moving up from#18 to #9 won't get that star scorer. No draft is going to have 9 guys who are identifiable as being likely to become first liners.

All you are doing is increasing the odds of your draftee being a second liner. But fans want to go for a sexier pick, even though professionals will know that his odds of becoming a first liner are miniscule.

This team cannot move up from the teens into the top 3 without giving up their whole roster. And a top-3 pick guarantees you nothing, which is why a team normally needs multiple top picks (plus early second round picks that are as good as late first rounders). Some top picks will bust, some underachieve and only a minority will become stars.

So what's the other option? Go for high-risk, high-return. But the problem with these prospects is that their risk is even higher than regular prospects. The vast majority of them will never crack the NHL. Even when they will, they will likely become P.A. Parenteau.

But a few of them will turn into a Marc Savard: players who consistently score more than a point per game.

If you just rely on your own picks, and get 1 high-risk, high return kid per draft, you will never succeed. Not enough of these kids can possibly make it.

But what if you trade away whatever non-long term assets you have for picks and draft offense-minded kids, no matter how risky they may be? Instead of 7 picks, get 15 picks. Take your first rounder and, horrors!, trade it for a later pick plus a second rounder and a midround pick.

Take a guy like Prospal and trade him at the deadline. Trade Christensen for a 7th rounder. Just stockpile 12-15 draft picks and use all of them on offensely-gifted players who may be slow or bad defensively or small. Obviously if someone is scoring in juniors, and yet they last until the 4th round, they must have problems. So what? Take them. Maybe they will become like Savard: small, bad D prospect turned into a superstar.

If you have a dozen or more of such prospects, you will probably be able to pull a rabbit out of a hat. Maybe not every draft. Maybe every other draft. Nevertheless, this team has enough 2-4 liners. I'd rather get one Marc Savard every other year than four more 45-point producers.

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05-03-2011, 12:21 PM
  #412
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Totally disagree.

Your not making yourself look better then anyone else by over inflating the long shot possibility that this team could contend very soon.
Yea, what ever you say.

Its not over inflating nor a longshot.

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05-03-2011, 12:24 PM
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I did not say we should trade a propsect for a vet...I said we should trade some of the prospects for a YOUNG NHL'er who has the tools...I am against trading for guys on or close to the back end of their careers, and I'm not for signing Richards, I think he'll cost too much and he is gonna want a long term deal to retire on...so if Sather gives hinm a 6 year deal we will have a 37 year old making big bucks.
You're assuming this young NHL talent is readily available for trade.

What team is handing over its young top line, high end forward?

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05-03-2011, 12:24 PM
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Yea, what ever you say.

Its not over inflating nor a longshot.
Disagree, its not whatever I say. Its being realistic about our chances. Looking at ALL of what goes into a Cup challenger, I'd say we have a lot of work to do, you think we just need one or two all star pieces. That simple huh?

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05-03-2011, 12:26 PM
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I did not say we should trade a propsect for a vet...I said we should trade some of the prospects for a YOUNG NHL'er who has the tools...I am against trading for guys on or close to the back end of their careers, and I'm not for signing Richards, I think he'll cost too much and he is gonna want a long term deal to retire on...so if Sather gives hinm a 6 year deal we will have a 37 year old making big bucks.
The thing is that those guys don't get traded. Nobody trades young NHLers who have all the tools. Young franchise forwards do not get put on the block. They're too valuable between their production and number of years under team control. This team could do worse than having to stomach a couple of years where Richards is past his prime, but still productive. It's worth it for a shot at contention.

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Disagree, its not whatever I say. Its being realistic about our chances. Looking at ALL of what goes into a Cup challenger, I'd say we have a lot of work to do, you think we just need one or two all star pieces. That simple huh?
I don't think we're that far off. If things actually break our way for once, then we could see a contender in the next couple of years.

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05-03-2011, 12:33 PM
  #416
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Disagree, its not whatever I say. Its being realistic about our chances. Looking at ALL of what goes into a Cup challenger, I'd say we have a lot of work to do, you think we just need one or two all star pieces. That simple huh?
Elite goaltender, 40 goal PPG player, high end shut down defenseman, five 20+ goal scorers, a top PK unit, at the top of the league in blocked shots (player that lead the league in blocked shots) and hits, one of the better defensive teams in the league. One of the hardest working teams in the league.

Core players 24-25 and under.

Yea, the team can realistically within a couple years, be a top 4 seed and push deep into the playoffs with a few smart moves.

An improved and legit Power Play, and a legit top line center could change a lot.

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05-03-2011, 12:39 PM
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You do realize how fetching and how hard it is to win the Stanley Cup. 20 years isn't that long in this regard.

The Canucks, Kings, Sabres, Capitals have been in the league 40 years at least and have yet to win the Cup once.

The Black Hawks won for the first time in nearly 50 years.

The Leafs haven't won in how long? 60s?

Bruins? 70s?

If the league went through a period of time where every team in the league won the Cup, it would take one team at least 30 years.

Even if you built a team with generational talent at every position on the roster, there would be no guarantees.

Your not making yourself look better then anyone else by diminishing the realistic possibility that this team could contend very soon.

They can't guarantee you a Cup. No team can. What they can do is put a team on the ice that can contend. We aren't far from that.
Yeah I know how hard it is, I've been following this team for 30+ years believe me I've seen everything....but this team hasn't even sniffed anything since 96

I'm not diminishing anything about this team...so I think you need to stop putting words in my posts but I think we can all agree that if we don't get at least one top flight scorer then this team will be a perpetual one and done PO team.

but it's pretty funny that you posted this because earlier in this thread when somebody pointed out Vancouver your response was "what have they won"...so lets at least be consistent

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05-03-2011, 12:40 PM
  #418
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That wasn't the posters point...he was pointing out the irony of SSM stating you can't laud the pick until you see how it pans out, while at the same time almost guaranteeing Mac will be an NHL'er...here is the quote for context.

However, there's no way to really critisize the pick until we see how he pans out.
He'll be an NHL player, though.
McIlrath can make it to the NHL and not be much in the NHL.

So, re reading what i said, it makes every bit of sense.

There is no way to criticize the pick because we don't know how he will pan out. He will be in the NHL though.[/QUOTE]


Well then add Ryan Hollweg to your draft success list because he played in the NHL

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05-03-2011, 12:41 PM
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Elite goaltender, 40 goal PPG player, high end shut down defenseman, five 20+ goal scorers, a top PK unit, at the top of the league in blocked shots (player that lead the league in blocked shots) and hits, one of the better defensive teams in the league.

Core players 24-25 and under.

Yea, the team can realistically within a couple years, be a top 4 seed and push deep into the playoffs with a few smart moves.

An improved and legit Power Play, and a legit top line center could change a lot.
And like this past season, if just ONE of those things are off we are not a contender. What are the odds everything keeps moving smoothly, no injuries, no regression/bad years from young players, all Sathers moves will work out this time, Torts will have no problems and will get the most out of all his players, etc.

You assume too much is gonna just come together, history says otherwise.

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05-03-2011, 12:45 PM
  #420
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You're assuming this young NHL talent is readily available for trade.

What team is handing over its young top line, high end forward?
Oh I don't know Chicago just traded Ladd and Byfulgien last summer because of Cap issues...do you think we could have used a 29 goal scorer in our top 6? Do you think we couldn't have used Byfulgien on the point on our PP? Those 20 goals from the blueline might have opened some things up down low for our forwards...but WTF do I know you guys are the experts.

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05-03-2011, 12:48 PM
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The thing is that those guys don't get traded. Nobody trades young NHLers who have all the tools. Young franchise forwards do not get put on the block. They're too valuable between their production and number of years under team control. This team could do worse than having to stomach a couple of years where Richards is past his prime, but still productive. It's worth it for a shot at contention.

See my post about Chicago...and what happens if Richards turns into Drury or Redden or god forbid Linros with concussion issues?

I don't think we're that far off. If things actually break our way for once, then we could see a contender in the next couple of years.
I've been a Ranger fan for 30 years nothing breaks our way

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05-03-2011, 12:50 PM
  #422
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
40 goal PPG player.
Not right now he's not.

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05-03-2011, 01:08 PM
  #423
Zil
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I've been a Ranger fan for 30 years nothing breaks our way
He won't turn into Drury or Redden. Richards is an elite, first-line center. Drury has never sniffed being that good. Redden was clearly declining before we even signed him. Lindros had half a dozen concussions before we got him. Richards has had one. If you're not going to gamble on Richards, then who do you think we're going to try and get? Nobody else that good is going to be available.

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Not right now he's not.
They have to operate under the assumption that Gaborik is going to bounce back. There's nothing else they can do. His track record suggests he will.

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05-03-2011, 01:24 PM
  #424
SingnBluesOnBroadway
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They have to operate under the assumption that Gaborik is going to bounce back. There's nothing else they can do. His track record suggests he will.
His track record? His average season is closer to what he did this season compare to what he did last year.

He is career average is 58 gp 25 goals 26 and 51 points.

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05-03-2011, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
His track record? His average season is closer to what he did this season compare to what he did last year.

He is career average is 58 gp 25 goals 26 and 51 points.
That's a lot closer to a ppg rate than what he put up this year. Prior to this year, when he's been on the ice he has produced. They have to assume he's going to bounce back.

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