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Old
04-27-2011, 05:44 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Every year since 1998, I've called for a true rebuild. I wanted to deal everyone from Beukeboom and Graves to Prospal and Jokinen. But I was trashed by everyone who said that the key to success is making the playoffs every year.

I wrote - repeatedly - that it doesn't matter if we make the playoffs and lose, what matters are Stanley Cups. But no, I was told that if you make it, anything can happen. But "anything" didn't happen. The only thing that happened is what we could've reasonably expected to happen: we became just another playoff team that isn't contending.

If we get lucky and a guy like Thomas, Kreider or Fasth becomes a first liner, we may move up to being contenders, but to be honest, I'm not sure we can win the Stanley Cup with this current crop.

There's no rebuild that is possible today other than trading Gaborik. What else can we sell off?

I've called for his trade in return for youth like Schenn and Toffoli. But no, I am again told that what matters is making the playoffs in 2011-12. Except that in a couple of years, this board will again be whining that we didn't do a true rebuild.

A true rebuild means being willing to sacrifice the present for the future. Who is on board with me on that?
This is where I was disappointed in Sather...I was all for him coming to NY because I believed he would tell Dolan that it had to be torn down to build a winner for the long haul, and I though he had the cache for Dolan to go for it...not what we got.

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04-27-2011, 05:48 PM
  #152
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Now is not the time to tank. We have everything in place, including a franchise goaltender which not a luxury many teams have and he's aging, except a top line. We're possibly about to take a step that might give us that top line.

The time to tank was in the Jagr years. It's gone.

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04-27-2011, 05:48 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
The simple fact you REFUSE to acknowledge, is that the current roster is FULL of talent that made their NHL debut with the Rangers.

And there will continue to be more players.

You want to complain about who was drafted in 2003, to each his own, i'll enjoy the progression of the team NOW and in the future.
and if you combine all the seasons of all those players you posted, you come up with one season over 50pts. This year by Dubi.

FULL of talent indeed.

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04-27-2011, 05:50 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Provolone View Post
and if you combine all the seasons of all those players you posted, you come up with one season over 50pts. This year by Dubi.

FULL of talent indeed.
I guess you forgot that there's this magical thing called age that has an impact on this whole situation. But it's cool.

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04-27-2011, 05:57 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
If you thought Blackburn was franchise talent, one can only imagine what you thought of DP back then. Lundqvist is what you dreamed of Blackburn, so who cares. Back to the point, there are no goal scorers on this team.
Right or wrong?
Dan Blackburn was 18 years old in his first year.

He stepped in at 19 years of age when Richter got hurt and played around 20 consecutive games, for an AWFUL Rangers team that provided no help at all. He got tired, normal for a TEENAGER handling that kind of workload on an awful team. Sather himself mentioned he didn't want to ruin Blackburn's development, and traded for Dunham to split the load.

He injured his shoulder in the summer before the next season. And that was that.

Dan Blackburn was outstanding. He had the make up of a #1 goaltender and franchise goaltender. The fact he showed that promise as a teenager was impressive in itself.

Clearly, you either aren't old enough to remember, or you didn't watch.

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04-27-2011, 06:02 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
I guess you forgot that there's this magical thing called age that has an impact on this whole situation. But it's cool.
the only player (homegrown) on this team that i think can reliably hit 50+pts every season is Stepan.

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04-27-2011, 06:09 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Shadowrunner View Post
Nope, not true. The only time Sather signed FAs was when we had glaring roles to fill that COULDN'T have been filled with prospects coming up through the system. Naturally, the first few years there were a LOT of holes to fill, which is why we had such a high turnover year after year. (The fact that most of the FA contracts didn't work out is another story.) As prospects step up and assume NHL roles, we are becoming much less reliant on the free agent market, and the albatross contracts are coming off the books just as we're gearing up to add the right pieces and build a contender.

The first 5 years were unquestionably terrible. The last 6 were very good, in my and most levelheaded people's opinions. Does that make it a terrible job overall? I don't think so.
Forget it.

Playstation would have them believe a player develops instantaneously.

It takes on average 5 years for a draft pick to not only reach the NHL but to start making an impact.

2004 + 5 = 2009
2005 + 5 = 2010
2006 + 5 = 2011

What a coincidence!

Forgetting some of them were ahead of the curve. Like Staal, Stepan, and Del Zotto who took didn't take long at all to reach the NHL and make an impact.

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04-27-2011, 06:12 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Provolone View Post
the only player (homegrown) on this team that i think can reliably hit 50+pts every season is Stepan.
Clearly because YOU think it, it makes it so!

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04-27-2011, 06:12 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Provolone View Post
the only player (homegrown) on this team that i think can reliably hit 50+pts every season is Stepan.
Cally?

Dubi?

Arty?

Seriously?

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04-27-2011, 06:13 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Provolone View Post
the only player (homegrown) on this team that i think can reliably hit 50+pts every season is Stepan.
really?

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04-27-2011, 06:13 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by dtrap View Post
Cally?

Dubi?

Arty?

Seriously?
When Del Zotto is in his prime he will reach 50+ points.

Kid reached 37 as a 19 year old, and struggled for a good portion of the season. Imagine if he hadn't.

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04-27-2011, 06:22 PM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Provolone View Post
the only player (homegrown) on this team that i think can reliably hit 50+pts every season is Stepan.
Then I wouldn't trust you to scout for pee wee hockey. Sorry, but that's just a ludicrous statement.

Callahan is already a 50-60 pt player, essentially, with nearly a PPG pace this season. Dubinsky has given us ZERO reason to believe he won't at the very least remain a 50-60 pt player he has proven to be this season. There is also every reason to believe Anisimov breaks 50 pts next season. MZA was cruising at a near 50 pt pace in a very inconsistent rookie season. Wolski is sitting at a .63 PPG career average, which amounts to over 50 pts a season. And then there's Stepan.

Those aren't aging vets, they are young players who are still developing and WILL get better.

(I'm not even getting into prospects because no one knows how they may turn out, but there are definitely players in the system with 1st line upside.)

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04-27-2011, 06:31 PM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Forget it.

Playstation would have them believe a player develops instantaneously.

It takes on average 5 years for a draft pick to not only reach the NHL but to start making an impact.

2004 + 5 = 2009
2005 + 5 = 2010
2006 + 5 = 2011

What a coincidence!

Forgetting some of them were ahead of the curve. Like Staal, Stepan, and Del Zotto who took didn't take long at all to reach the NHL and make an impact.
We're on the same team, homeslice.

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04-27-2011, 06:46 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Forget it.

Playstation would have them believe a player develops instantaneously.

It takes on average 5 years for a draft pick to not only reach the NHL but to start making an impact.

2004 + 5 = 2009
2005 + 5 = 2010
2006 + 5 = 2011

What a coincidence!

Forgetting some of them were ahead of the curve. Like Staal, Stepan, and Del Zotto who took didn't take long at all to reach the NHL and make an impact.
You keep bringing up this 5 year thing like its some sort of rule. Much like your continious pandering to Ranger prospects, its a crock of ****.

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04-27-2011, 07:42 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Good teams find talent.

Getzlaf, Perry, Parise, Giroux, Kessler were all late first round picks.

Datsyku, Zetterberg, Eriksson, Sharp, Lucic, Bergeron were second round or later picks. St. Louis wasn't even drafted.

Sure it's easier to find top talent when you're drafting in the top five, but that's not an excuse. That's one of the serious flaws in the Sather tenure he's not had great success drafting in the first round and he has unearthed talent late.
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Is anyone even arguing that at this point? Clark has done a great job with our drafting. We can blame Maloney for a lot of the boneheaded picks, which he seems to be reacquiring out in Phoenix.
Which is a really good point. I'm NOT a huge Sather fan, but when was the last time Sather was the guy who announced the pick? He doesn't because he'd really not the guy doing the drafting. He's the GM, he hires the guys who manage the scouts who run the draft. Those two positions are the Director of Player Personnel and Assistant GM. DoPP was first held by none other than Tom Renney and the Assistant GM was Don Maloney early in Sather's tenure. So if the Drafting sucked early, blame those two guys. During the later portions of Sather's tenure it's been a hell of a lot better and he was Gordie Clark as DoPP and Jim Schoenfeld as Assistant GM to thank for it.

Sather works the trades which he's really good at and contract signings which RFAs he's good at and UFAs he sucks at. So he basically has 3 jobs. Hiring and firing people which in the first half of his tenure he sucked because Renney and Maloney sucked. 2nd half he did okay because Torts, Clark, and Scheonfeld are very good. so that's a wash. UFAs contracts he's terrible with but RFA contracts he's good with, that's a wash. The final thing he's left to do is trades which he's fairly good at. So overal he gets a B- from me.

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04-27-2011, 07:46 PM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Dan Blackburn was 18 years old in his first year.

He stepped in at 19 years of age when Richter got hurt and played around 20 consecutive games, for an AWFUL Rangers team that provided no help at all. He got tired, normal for a TEENAGER handling that kind of workload on an awful team. Sather himself mentioned he didn't want to ruin Blackburn's development, and traded for Dunham to split the load.

He injured his shoulder in the summer before the next season. And that was that.

Dan Blackburn was outstanding. He had the make up of a #1 goaltender and franchise goaltender. The fact he showed that promise as a teenager was impressive in itself.

Clearly, you either aren't old enough to remember, or you didn't watch.
Not to get off the point of this thread but I totally agree with you. I think Henke is great but Blackburn was a phenomenal goalie. He would have been better than Henke! To think we could have had both of them is insane. Its terrible what happened to him.

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04-27-2011, 07:54 PM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Provolone View Post
the only player (homegrown) on this team that i think can reliably hit 50+pts every season is Stepan.
I think people responding to this didn't read the bold part.

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04-27-2011, 08:12 PM
  #168
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I think the 5 year rule is legitimate. When a kid is drafted, fans always talk about 2-3 years, but it never winds up that fast other than maybe for first or second overall picks.

Even if a kid makes the NHL at 19-20 years old, he still takes time to develop. Everyone loves Step, but if a vet played like that, we would boo him daily. We give kids a break and pretend they are great, but the reality is that it usually takes them a couple of years to truly get a hang of things and contribute.

A 4-5 year plan is really the minimum one can expect. With many players, it's more like 6-7 years. After all, a kid is regarded as entering his prime only in the second half of his 20's.

We will probably add Del Zotto and Hagelin next October and either Kreider or Grachev midway through the season.

In 2012-13, we will add Thomas, Bourque and/or Fasth. Then give these kids a full season for them all to play together.

By 2013-14, we will be a top NHL team if they pan out. And if not, use Drury's money to sign someone then. Who knows what our needs will be at that point.

But realistically, we won't be contending for the next couple of seasons.

The rebuild of 2004 may reap us a contender only a full decade later. That's what happens when you don't go all out to rebuild by trading away everything and tanking.

Maybe the next time the Rangers collapse, they will do it properly. If only the Rangers traded Jagr, Nylander, Straka, etc when they all had value for picks and prospects. If only they tanked and got a top five pick instead of barely making the playoffs. If only the fans would value long term success over short term mediocrity.

Maybe then people would call for Gaborik to be dealt for youth, preferring to focus on the 2014 Stanley Cup rather than 2012 playoffs as a first round underdog. Nah, never will happen.

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04-27-2011, 08:30 PM
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
I think the 5 year rule is legitimate. When a kid is drafted, fans always talk about 2-3 years, but it never winds up that fast other than maybe for first or second overall picks.

Even if a kid makes the NHL at 19-20 years old, he still takes time to develop. Everyone loves Step, but if a vet played like that, we would boo him daily. We give kids a break and pretend they are great, but the reality is that it usually takes them a couple of years to truly get a hang of things and contribute.

A 4-5 year plan is really the minimum one can expect. With many players, it's more like 6-7 years. After all, a kid is regarded as entering his prime only in the second half of his 20's.

We will probably add Del Zotto and Hagelin next October and either Kreider or Grachev midway through the season.

In 2012-13, we will add Thomas, Bourque and/or Fasth. Then give these kids a full season for them all to play together.

By 2013-14, we will be a top NHL team if they pan out. And if not, use Drury's money to sign someone then. Who knows what our needs will be at that point.

But realistically, we won't be contending for the next couple of seasons.

The rebuild of 2004 may reap us a contender only a full decade later. That's what happens when you don't go all out to rebuild by trading away everything and tanking.

Maybe the next time the Rangers collapse, they will do it properly. If only the Rangers traded Jagr, Nylander, Straka, etc when they all had value for picks and prospects. If only they tanked and got a top five pick instead of barely making the playoffs. If only the fans would value long term success over short term mediocrity.

Maybe then people would call for Gaborik to be dealt for youth, preferring to focus on the 2014 Stanley Cup rather than 2012 playoffs as a first round underdog. Nah, never will happen.
Well hell why stop there? Lets trade Hank for youth too. Girardi is kinda getting up there as well so maybe we can get a collection of picks for him now too. Your tank plan would be well on it's way, along with the fanbase to another team.

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04-27-2011, 08:34 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
I think the 5 year rule is legitimate. When a kid is drafted, fans always talk about 2-3 years, but it never winds up that fast other than maybe for first or second overall picks.

Even if a kid makes the NHL at 19-20 years old, he still takes time to develop. Everyone loves Step, but if a vet played like that, we would boo him daily. We give kids a break and pretend they are great, but the reality is that it usually takes them a couple of years to truly get a hang of things and contribute.

A 4-5 year plan is really the minimum one can expect. With many players, it's more like 6-7 years. After all, a kid is regarded as entering his prime only in the second half of his 20's.

We will probably add Del Zotto and Hagelin next October and either Kreider or Grachev midway through the season.

In 2012-13, we will add Thomas, Bourque and/or Fasth. Then give these kids a full season for them all to play together.

By 2013-14, we will be a top NHL team if they pan out. And if not, use Drury's money to sign someone then. Who knows what our needs will be at that point.

But realistically, we won't be contending for the next couple of seasons.

The rebuild of 2004 may reap us a contender only a full decade later. That's what happens when you don't go all out to rebuild by trading away everything and tanking.

Maybe the next time the Rangers collapse, they will do it properly. If only the Rangers traded Jagr, Nylander, Straka, etc when they all had value for picks and prospects. If only they tanked and got a top five pick instead of barely making the playoffs. If only the fans would value long term success over short term mediocrity.

Maybe then people would call for Gaborik to be dealt for youth, preferring to focus on the 2014 Stanley Cup rather than 2012 playoffs as a first round underdog. Nah, never will happen.
And then we flounder, get a decent kid, and- oh wait! Hank's past his prime. Now we're a worse team.

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04-27-2011, 08:36 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
I think people responding to this didn't read the bold part.
Dubinsky and Callahan are a lock for 50+ point seasons here on out. Anything short would be disappointing seasons for both.

Anisimov is the one I'm concerned about.

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04-27-2011, 08:43 PM
  #172
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Lundqvist will still be here in three years, as will Girardi. But Gabby has a history of injuries and his contract will run out by then. In
2013-14, Girardi and Lundqvist will be key players. Gabby will be gone. You see the difference? [I already explained why 2013-14 is the earliest we can expect to contend.]

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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
Well hell why stop there? Lets trade Hank for youth too. Girardi is kinda getting up there as well so maybe we can get a collection of picks for him now too. Your tank plan would be well on it's way, along with the fanbase to another team.

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04-27-2011, 08:51 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
And then we flounder, get a decent kid, and- oh wait! Hank's past his prime. Now we're a worse team.
It's getting really annoying reading comments from people who have no ability to analyse.

Gabby is in trouble because of injuries. He is also a skater, meaning his shelf life is shorter.

Lundqvist is a goalie and star goalies normally last into their late 30s. If you played any sports, you would know why. But instead people who play Nintendo can't understand the difference between a skater who gets hit and a goalie who does not.

Barring a groin or freak injury, Lundqvist has another 10 years. Gaborik will forget how to ice skate by then.

So please stop comparing injured forwards to goalies. It's just not the same.


Last edited by Beacon: 04-27-2011 at 08:58 PM.
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04-27-2011, 08:57 PM
  #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
It's getting really annoying reading comments from people who have no ability to analyse.

Gabby is in trouble because of injuries. He is also a skater, meaning his shelf life is shorter.

Lundqvist is a goalie and star goalies normally last into their late 30s. If you played any sports, you would know why. But instead people who play Nintendo can't understand the difference between a skater who gets hit and a goalie who does not.

Barring a groin or freak injury, Lundqvist has another 10 years. Gaborik will forget how to ice skate by then.

So please stop comparing injured forwards to goalie. This is not play station.
No, but your plan of trading away assets for picks and prospects is asinine. That should've been done years ago. Now we have to trade picks and prospects for assets.

Who's to say any of the kids you say pan out? Thomas, Bourque and Fasth are all nothing more than possibles right now, especially Bourque and Fasth. Kreider and Grachev has not showed anything that makes me believe they can be impact forwards in the near future. Del Zotto's in that same both. Hopefully we'll use Drury's money to sign Richards now instead of hoping we can maybe possibly get a player like him in UFA.

Please stop banking the future of this team on question marks. THAT'S a video game mentality. The reality is every single of them can become AHL fodder (in the case of Bourque, Fasth and Thomas) or Bottom 6 muckers (Kreider, Grachev).

Then what?

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04-27-2011, 08:59 PM
  #175
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But Lundy isn't necessarily a ranger for the next 10 years.....

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