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Zach Bogosian to the Leafs

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Old
04-27-2011, 02:38 PM
  #26
calcal798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bozak911 View Post
Leads what league in hits? 8th does not equal a league leader...

1 Cal Clutterbuck MIN R 76 336 32 78 25 24 3 8 11 27.3 0.2 191 19 9.9
2 Tuomo Ruutu CAR C 82 309 38 72 38 42 265 378 643 41.2 13.0 148 19 12.8
3 Dustin Brown LAK R 82 300 29 96 67 35 18 19 37 48.6 0.7 228 28 12.3
4 Matt Martin NYI L 68 299 49 29 11 25 10 17 27 37.0 0.6 60 5 8.3
5 Troy Brouwer CHI L 79 262 36 51 20 24 12 13 25 48.0 0.5 122 17 13.9
6 Chris Neil OTT R 80 258 21 37 20 35 3 3 6 50.0 0.1 105 6 5.7
7 Steve Ott DAL L 82 252 44 54 43 25 644 494 1138 56.6 23.8 120 12 10.0
8 Luke Schenn TOR D 82 251 168 56 95 38 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 128 5 3.9
Among Defense*

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Old
04-27-2011, 02:42 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by bozak911 View Post
Leads what league in hits? 8th does not equal a league leader...
he meant to say top Dman in hits, and if he didn't mean to say that i'm going to say it for him.

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04-27-2011, 02:44 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by The Brewmeister View Post
Try this...

Aulie + McKegg + Boston 1st

IMO I think Aulie will be a solid 3-4 d-man... and I still don't think this is enough.
I would guess Atlanta would want an upgrade from Bogosian or a package of highly rated prospects IF they had any desire of moving him. Personally I don't see the point he's only going to get better and would demand a kings ransom.

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Old
04-27-2011, 02:44 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsfan64 View Post
Just wondering if he'd be available, and what it would take....

Lupul
D'Amigo
Philly's 1st


Enough? Overpayment? Underpayment?
Bogosian would be nice. He has a yet untapped puck moving game that we do need and he is young enough to fit into our core and be around for a long time. He took a step back this year but he isn't even 21 yet. He has time to grow.

However, he won't get the value some people say. Yes, most if not all teams, would be interested. The value won't be what people say. GM's aren't stupid and they won't just offer top value for a guy that had a down season and is now solidly behind Byfuglien and Enstrom with little room to attain the top line status many see him capable of. They will try to get him cheap (which is very likely why he wasn't traded). No one is going to offer two firsts (no chance that actually happened, this isn't a guy who had particularily impressive seasons). They won't offer crap (they want to keep up a good relationship) but they won't pay the moon.

From the Leafs standpoint, as I already stated, Bogosian would be a nice add. However, defense isn't the primary concern we have right now. We already have two studs in the making in Phaneuf and Schenn and two very solid guys in Aulie and Gunnarsson, both of who showed some high potential. We also have developing PMD's in Gardiner (who played very well in his AHL stint, despite what the stats suggest), Blacker (has played very effectively in the OHL) and to some extend Mikus (nice all around skills and a high potential if he can reach it. More of a boom/bust prospect). If needed, we can sign a bandaid option (like MA Bergeron etc) to play on the bottom pairing and wait for one of the above three to grow or wait till a better option comes available on the FA market.

A center is a more pressing need at the moment. If we could get Bogosian for a good deal, than we should, but it isn't likely going to happen.

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Old
04-27-2011, 02:44 PM
  #30
mydnyte
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsfan64 View Post
Just wondering if he'd be available, and what it would take....

Lupul
D'Amigo
Philly's 1st


Enough? Overpayment? Underpayment?
Bogosian is a heck of a better player than Schenn for example.

...so, figure out if you would trade Schenn for what you offered, then go from there.

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Old
04-27-2011, 02:45 PM
  #31
calcal798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgupca View Post
he meant to say top Dman in hits, and if he didn't mean to say that i'm going to say it for him.
Thanks, and I did...

And at 21 I'm expecting the league lead wont be far behind

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04-27-2011, 02:46 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
I'd probably rather have Kulemin at this point. Kid looks like a stud.

Could be fair value IMO
I agree it would be fair, but, i'd take Bogosian

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04-27-2011, 02:49 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mydnyte View Post
Bogosian is a heck of a better player than Schenn for example.

...so, figure out if you would trade Schenn for what you offered, then go from there.
Better than Schenn eh...?

Career Numbers:

Bogosian: 199gp 24g 35a 59p -34 137PIMS 307hits 215BS

Schenn: 231gp 12g 41a 53p -17 155PIMS 424hits 284BS

To me those numbers look pretty smiliar, and other than goals and a few more overall points, schenn wins every other stat....

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Old
04-27-2011, 02:50 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by calcal798 View Post
Thanks, and I did...

And at 21 I'm expecting the league lead wont be far behind
I would agree...he was about 100 off a Clut and Brown,,,but those hits will continue to climb for the next 5 years or so.

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04-27-2011, 02:54 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgupca View Post
Better than Schenn eh...?

Career Numbers:

Bogosian: 199gp 24g 35a 59p -34 137PIMS 307hits 215BS

Schenn: 231gp 12g 41a 53p -17 155PIMS 424hits 284BS

To me those numbers look pretty smiliar, and other than goals and a few more overall points, schenn wins every other stat....
Bogosian has played 32 less games and has 12 more goals. I think thats quite telling. Offensive defenceman are more valuable.

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Old
04-27-2011, 02:57 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by calcal798 View Post
Yea i know it'd be a 2nd. If ATL would match it then I would be okay with that. There are more then enough d in our system and in free agency this summer that could take a top four position I would not want to compensate another 1st round pick in a draft that is looking pretty solid next year.

With Luke Schen probably getting 3.5-4 million or around there I see no point in offering Bogosian, who has played worse then Schenn thus far, more money.
No offense - but that's like someone saying they'd offersheet Kadri for $2.9M when his ELC is up. It's absolute insanity because you KNOW that the offersheet would be matched - so why bother?

I'm not comparing him to Pronger - but does anyone remember how Pronger struggled his first couple of years in the league? The thought that a 21 YO d-man's value is primarily based on what they've produced thus far at the NHL level and NOT their potential is just crazyness to me.

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Old
04-27-2011, 03:04 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calcal798 View Post
Well considering Luke Schenn leads the league in Hits (at 21), was one of the only players to get 100+ blocked shots and 250+ hits in a season. I think his value is a little more then Bogosians...
So the answer is: that deal is an awful trade for Luke Schenn.

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04-27-2011, 03:07 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Bogosian has played 32 less games and has 12 more goals. I think thats quite telling. Offensive defenceman are more valuable.
Cool stat! While I agree that it's nice when defenceman chip in goals, we didn't draft Luke Schenn to lead our team in that department. If Atlanta fans feel that Bogo's value is equal to or higher than Schenn, that's fine. You won't find a single Leafs fan who would be willing to swap players straight up.

We don't need Bogosian, he's a very talented player, but our blueline is expensive enough.

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04-27-2011, 03:09 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan View Post
No offense - but that's like someone saying they'd offersheet Kadri for $2.9M when his ELC is up. It's absolute insanity because you KNOW that the offersheet would be matched - so why bother?

I'm not comparing him to Pronger - but does anyone remember how Pronger struggled his first couple of years in the league? The thought that a 21 YO d-man's value is primarily based on what they've produced thus far at the NHL level and NOT their potential is just crazyness to me.
Im just stating how much I'd put in an offersheet for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Bogosian has played 32 less games and has 12 more goals. I think thats quite telling. Offensive defenceman are more valuable.
I'd way rather have a defensive dman in the playoffs then an offensive...

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04-27-2011, 03:18 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by thinkinfeller View Post
Cool stat! While I agree that it's nice when defenceman chip in goals, we didn't draft Luke Schenn to lead our team in that department. If Atlanta fans feel that Bogo's value is equal to or higher than Schenn, that's fine. You won't find a single Leafs fan who would be willing to swap players straight up.

We don't need Bogosian, he's a very talented player, but our blueline is expensive enough.
I realize Schenn is important to the Leafs and would be shocked if any leafs fans would trade him at this point. My point wasnt that the two should trade defenseman, thats ridiculous. That offering up a bunch of smaller pieces for defensemen who are now top 4 D with still huge potential such as Bogosian or Schenn simply isnt going to cut it.

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04-27-2011, 03:23 PM
  #41
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In sports, offering three dimes for a quarter does not work.

Atlanta needs help with there scoring. Maybe Kulemin or Grabovski would work.

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04-27-2011, 03:24 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
I realize Schenn is important to the Leafs and would be shocked if any leafs fans would trade him at this point. My point wasnt that the two should trade defenseman, thats ridiculous. That offering up a bunch of smaller pieces for defensemen who are now top 4 D with still huge potential such as Bogosian or Schenn simply isnt going to cut it.
Oh I agree. I wish there weren't half the Leaf proposals that there are around here, but running down the value of our players is counterproductive. Short of Drew Doughty and Duncan Keith, I can't think of another defenceman that I would want to trade Schenn for straight up (understand before flaming that I'm not calling him the 3rd best defenceman in the league, I just really like him in the blue and white).

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04-27-2011, 03:31 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by thinkinfeller View Post
Oh I agree. I wish there weren't half the Leaf proposals that there are around here, but running down the value of our players is counterproductive. Short of Drew Doughty and Duncan Keith, I can't think of another defenceman that I would want to trade Schenn for straight up (understand before flaming that I'm not calling him the 3rd best defenceman in the league, I just really like him in the blue and white).
Fair enough. I didn't really mean it that I was saying Schenn is a bad player. I was just stating that he was close in value to Bogosian, which in my eyes would be of a compliment.

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04-27-2011, 03:33 PM
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Bogo and Schenn are very different defensemen, with very different skill sets, but I think their respective values are very close. It's like saying who's better Ehrhoff or Volchenkov? Very different, but equally as important in their particular roles.

With this said, I would say that any deal involving Bogo (especially by Leaf fans) would need to be equal, or at least very close to the same value it would take to land Schenn. So the OP isn't enough.

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04-27-2011, 03:46 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
I could just imagine if this package was offered for Luke Schenn.
Theres quite a difference in the play of Schenn and Bogosian, I think Bogosian has potential to be good, but as of this season Schenn put up more points than Bogosian and was a whole lot sturdier defensively. As of now Schenn has proven to be better than Bogosian

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04-27-2011, 03:56 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Anton 2nd Pick View Post
In sports, offering three dimes for a quarter does not work.

Atlanta needs help with there scoring. Maybe Kulemin or Grabovski would work.
I could see a deal surrounding Grabo, that might work

Grabo
Philly 1st
Gunnarsson or Aulie

Bogosian

Might be underpayment
But Bogosians value isnt as high as it once was

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04-27-2011, 04:02 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by calcal798 View Post
Im just stating how much I'd put in an offersheet for him.


I'd way rather have a defensive dman in the playoffs then an offensive...
1) That's great - but it's like me saying I'm going to ask Kim Kardashian out on a date, or saying I'm willing to spend $20,000 for a brand new BMW M5. It has no bearing on reality.

2) D-men all have some combination of offensive & defensive capabilities. The guys who can move the puck and score goals tend to have higher values than the guys that don't do that. Obviously, ELITE defensive d-man have a very high value, but guys who also bring the offensive skills are valued higher. Any evaluation of Schenn & Bogo obviously has some sort of assumption on where those guys are going to end up during the prime of their career. I understand where you're coming from on valuing LS so highly, but I think that if Bogo reaches his potential, he'll be valued significantly greater than LS. Obviously - he's not guaranteed to reach that potential.

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04-27-2011, 04:04 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick942 View Post
I could see a deal surrounding Grabo, that might work

Grabo
Philly 1st
Gunnarsson or Aulie

Bogosian

Might be underpayment
But Bogosians value isnt as high as it once was
I hate Leafs' fans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton 2nd Pick View Post
In sports, offering three dimes for a quarter does not work.

Atlanta needs help with there scoring. Maybe Kulemin or Grabovski would work.
Kulemin or Grabovski? Enstrom would be coming back.

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Old
04-27-2011, 04:16 PM
  #49
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Actually Nick is on the right track. Atlanta needs scoring, his proposal is quite decent. An overpay is usually necessary to get someone with that kind of upside (see Erik Johnson deal).

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04-27-2011, 04:17 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calcal798 View Post
Well considering Luke Schenn leads the league in Hits (at 21), was one of the only players to get 100+ blocked shots and 250+ hits in a season. I think his value is a little more then Bogosians...
Also leads the league in give aways as well so don't make it sound like he's the next Scott Stevens. But Schenn has adjusted to the NHL a lot easier than Bogosian; so no, a similar offer as the OP would not be able to acquire Schenn. Bogosian << Schenn

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