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Official Post-Season Discussion. Update: Gauthier to meet with Meehan

View Poll Results: Do you think Wiz will sign with the Habs ?
Yes 25 29.07%
No 61 70.93%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-30-2011, 08:51 PM
  #276
Habs13
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Subtract Gomez by any means... ship him to the AHL, KHL or Alaska. Anywhere but here. Flip Pouliot the bird and shove him on a bus to someplace. Reunite Andrei with Sergei in Nashville. Buy Subban a brand new Audi S5. Pearl white with a red leather interior.

Acquire toughness and grit already... I'm too tired to check who is potential avaliable via free agency. Somebody that can play and who can mangle Bruins and crumple Leafs. Acquire as many of this style of player as we can.

Draft with size, toughness and grit in mind.

Promote Plekanec to top line center and Eller to second. Dangle Desharnais to other GM's and try to land a better fish. He is good but we're already far too effin tiny. Find two big, mean, physical net crashing centers for the bottom two lines. Find more guys like White for the bottom two lines.

That should keep Pierre busy for a while... although, none of the above will happen.

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05-01-2011, 03:56 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
If the rumor of Ramo signing another season in the KHL is true, it's a big blow, I believe. Not only can I envision him doing a much better job than Auld but also, he might be our best bargaining chip we have for other moves. Mind you, either it's a sign of us not having a whole lot, or could be that no matter what league you're playing, if you post great stats, you will get noticed....but Ramo to me is on top of the list of players we "could" trade and get something fine for him.

Him signing in the KHL is not good news. Gauthier needs to get him here next year. So here's a signing he needs to do.
I think you are exagerating quite a bit about Ramo.. I know about his stats in the KHL but hey thats the KHL.. We arent going to get close of what we got for Halak..

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Old
05-01-2011, 06:42 AM
  #278
subbanged
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Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
I think you are exagerating quite a bit about Ramo.. I know about his stats in the KHL but hey thats the KHL.. We arent going to get close of what we got for Halak..
Yes, but wouldn't you want a goaltender you can rely on to backup price? rather then Auld this year?

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05-01-2011, 07:22 AM
  #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subbanged View Post
Yes, but wouldn't you want a goaltender you can rely on to backup price? rather then Auld this year?
I thought Auld was rather good. 6-2-2, 2.64 GAA and a .914 save%.

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05-01-2011, 07:42 AM
  #280
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Originally Posted by sonnytheman View Post
The guys I'm interested in getting up front are:

Brooks Laich (decent scoring, good defensively, good at faceoffs, doesn't get injured often) - $3.5 million?
I want Brooks Laich too the problem is, so will 29 other teams. And he'll likely fetch much more than that as a UFA. At least 4.5 M a year and at 27 years old, likely a long term (5-6 years) deal.

He's a guy I wouldn't mind over-playing for personally though because he's exactly the type of player we need up front.

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Old
05-01-2011, 07:48 AM
  #281
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Brooks Laich

Patrick Eaves

Scottie Upshall

Cam Janssen

Ben Eager

Curtis Glencross

Zenon Konopka

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Old
05-01-2011, 07:59 AM
  #282
subbanged
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KK here's my plan, lets start with what we have first, also assuming 62m in cap

Gionta(5)-Gomez(7.36)-XXXX
XXXX-Plek(5)-Cammy(6)
XXXX-Eller(.75)-XXXXX
Moen(1.5)-XXXX-XXXX
XXXX

XXXX-Subban(.875)
XXXX-XXXX
XXXX-XXXX
Spacek(3.833)


Price(2.75)
XXXX

Cap Used 33.068

RFA's(in order of importance)

Gorges
Pacioretty
Kostitsyn
Weber
Desharnais
White
Pyatt
Pouliot
Picard

Gorges resign at 2.75m over 3 years
pacioretty 2m over 2 years 1 way
Kostitsyn 3.5m over 1 year
Weber 1m 1 year 1 way
Desharnais .85m 1 year 1 way
White .65m 1 year 1 way (unless willing to take 2 years at that price then jump on that)
Pyatt .75m 1 year 1 way
Pouliot trade for third or fourth round pick or do not qualify
Picard trade for fifth or do not qualify

Gives us

Gionta(5)-Gomez(7.357)-Pacioretty(2)
XXXX-Plekanec(5)-Cammalleri(6)
Kostitsyn(3.5)-Eller(.75)-XXXX
Moen(1.5)-Desharnais(.85)-White(.65)
Pyatt(.75)

XXXX-Subban(.875)
XXXX-Gorges(2)
Weber(1)-XXXX
Spacek(3.833)

Price(2.75)
XXXX

Cap Used 44
Cap space ~18m

Our UFA's (once again in order of importance)
Markov
Wisnewski
Gill
Darche
Halpern
Hamrlik
Mara
Sopel
Auld

From here Id sign Markov to a 7 year contract at 4.5 per
Wisnewski to a 4 year contract at 5.25 per
Gill to a 2 year contract at 1.75-2m per
Darche to a 2 year contract at .75m

Now we have

Gionta(5)-Gomez(7.357)-Pacioretty(2)
XXXX-Plekanec(5)-Cammalleri(6)
Kostitsyn(3.5)-Eller(.75)-Darche(.75)
Moen(1.5)-Desharnais(.85)-White(.65)
Pyatt(.75)

Markov(4.5)-Subban(.875)
Wiznewski(5.25)-Gorges(2.75)
Gill(2)-Weber(.75)
Spacek(3.833)

Price(2.75)
XXXX

Cap Used 56.815
Cap Space 5.25m
What we need
A forward with grit
a back up goalie

Sign any generic backup to 1m 1 year
leaving 4.25 m for a forward
Ville Leino 4 years at 4m
or
Brooks Laich 4 years at 4m
or
Tomas Kopecky 4 years at 3.75

Final Product

Gionta(5)-Gomez(7.357)-MaxPac(2)
Leino/Laich/Kopecky(4) - Plek(5) - Cammy(6)
Kostitsyn(3.5)-Eller(.75)-Darche(.75)
Moen(1.5)-Desharnais(.85)-White(.65)
Pyatt(.75)

Markov(4.75)-Subban(.875)
Wiz(5.25)-Gorges(2.75)
Gill(2)-Weber(.75)
Spacek(3.833)

Price(2.75m)
Backup(1m)

used 62m, some notes of interest I put weber with Gill so he can learn the same way that subban did on how to be a professional and play the defensive side. The following year a few big name players of ours will be up for raises, (price, Subban, eller, Patches a year later). Then I would get rid of Gomez at all costs.

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Old
05-01-2011, 08:00 AM
  #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
I thought Auld was rather good. 6-2-2, 2.64 GAA and a .914 save%.
I meant someone who could play closer to 15-20 games rather then auld

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Old
05-01-2011, 08:04 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Habs13 View Post
Acquire toughness and grit already... I'm too tired to check who is potential avaliable via free agency. Somebody that can play and who can mangle Bruins and crumple Leafs. Acquire as many of this style of player as we can.

Draft with size, toughness and grit in mind.

Promote Plekanec to top line center and Eller to second. Dangle Desharnais to other GM's and try to land a better fish. He is good but we're already far too effin tiny. Find two big, mean, physical net crashing centers for the bottom two lines. Find more guys like White for the bottom two lines.

That should keep Pierre busy for a while... although, none of the above will happen.
The main reason it won't happen, of course, is that it's far easier to list generic lists of desirable qualities than to actually acquire hockey players that actually exist and are available for a price that makes sense...

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Old
05-01-2011, 08:09 AM
  #285
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Keep : Cammi,Pleks,PK,Price,Gio,White,Eller,Pacs
Dump/trade : AK,Pouliot,Hamr,Spacek,Pyatt,Gomez,Sopel
On the fence: Gill,Moen,Darche
Trade bait if return is rightD,Gorges,Weber
Wiz, Markov: If price is right and/or healthy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habtacular View Post
The main reason it won't happen, of course, is that it's far easier to list generic lists of desirable qualities than to actually acquire hockey players that actually exist and are available for a price that makes sense...
Actually PG and JM don't like that style of hockey,and think this team is tough enough Those players are far easier and cheaper to acquire. Rupp,Asham,McCormick,Thornton and alot more have recently or are UFA w/talent who are very cap friendly


Last edited by PyrettaBlaze*: 05-06-2011 at 10:55 PM.
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05-01-2011, 08:49 AM
  #286
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Plus minus is not a defensive stat. It's an outscoring stat. Gomez is a minus player because he has low goals for, not high goals against. And we've already been over why he has low goals for. His defense is fine, his plus minus is just another sign that he couldn't buy a goal at evens.

As a side note, what boggles my mind is that people try to make statistical arguments without even understanding the basic definition of the stats they use, and then turn around and accuse me of overvaluing stats.
One thing though. I know what I see, and Gomer is unbelievably bad at scoring goals for a center in his range.

I'm just wacked a the guy's uselessness around the net. Like Major zero net aggression. Hesitation, weakness, timidity.

He's just awful.

I do not understand how anyone can play Hockey at his talent level for what? 25 years? and not develop any scoring ability. It's just really weird.

Can't stand his lack of scoring talent. It's pathetic.

Say this , say that, but all number 1 or 2 centers should at least pot 15-20 goals.

He wasn't the only one, but Gomer KILLED us with his zero finishing ability this year. He killed us.

It's not the plus minus, or lack of assists, it's Gomer's complete uselessness at scoring goals that has ended my patience. Scoring goals is part of being an effective offensive center. There are times whan your wingers are hurt, slumping, or tied up. That's the time you need to pot some. Drill it yourself, get the job done. Gomez does not.

I gave him 2 years and 2 playoffs. Sorry to say, but I'm done with him.

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Originally Posted by old scotia View Post
I feel sorry for Gomez. You could see how excited he was after the first play off game when he has interviewed by Eliot. Patrick Roy could ressurected him. I just hope Patrick Roy takes over the team either as GM or coach. Not sure which I'd rather.
Unreal. Again and again on this board, I see the (likely younger) fans bring Roy up as coaching, management material. I hope Patrick Roy never gets within 50 miles of a GM or coaching job with the Montreal Canadiens.

He was a truly great goalie, WAY better than Dryden in fact, but that's what he was, a very great goalie. That's all. I love Patrick Roy and always will. But he' not NHL coaching and GM material. He's not smart enough, and he has zero political sense and control of his emotions.

Why is he not coaching or managing right now in the NHL? Ever think of that? He retired what? 6 -8 years ago and he's a junior coach in the Q. Wow. There's a reason for that.

Never gonna happen, unless you enjoyed the Tremblay Houle years and think we should keep asking really great but dumb Habs players to keep ****ing things up for us. We've been down that road. Get with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
I think you are exagerating quite a bit about Ramo.. I know about his stats in the KHL but hey thats the KHL.. We arent going to get close of what we got for Halak..
Every single asset counts, and PG better bloody well get at least a decent pick for him.


Last edited by PyrettaBlaze*: 05-06-2011 at 10:56 PM.
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05-01-2011, 09:44 AM
  #287
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Gauthier is kind of in a tough spot as it relates to Markov. If he re-signs him, for how long and how much considering the knee injuries? Maybe a games played provision? Plus with the play of PK, does PG take the money previously alloted for Markov and attempt to fix other problem areas on the team. I think Markov could really help PK develop, and would give Montreal 2 solid pmd, but in a cap world, it may not be feasible.
I would like to see Josh Gorges and Hal Gill re-signed. I know Gill is slow, but he really has a stabilizing effect on PK, and he can clear the front of the net for Price, at least until Tinordi is ready. And Gorges is a leader and character guy, in addition to being a good d-man.

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05-01-2011, 10:49 AM
  #288
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Originally Posted by habshound247 View Post
Gauthier is kind of in a tough spot as it relates to Markov. If he re-signs him, for how long and how much considering the knee injuries? Maybe a games played provision? Plus with the play of PK, does PG take the money previously alloted for Markov and attempt to fix other problem areas on the team. I think Markov could really help PK develop, and would give Montreal 2 solid pmd, but in a cap world, it may not be feasible.
I would like to see Josh Gorges and Hal Gill re-signed. I know Gill is slow, but he really has a stabilizing effect on PK, and he can clear the front of the net for Price, at least until Tinordi is ready. And Gorges is a leader and character guy, in addition to being a good d-man.
We would have a shutdown D in Gorges that is very likely to have a good cap hit for his actual value. We could afford Markov and Subban. Markov, Subban and Wisniewski, when we have Weber in the roster, that, is not possible.

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Old
05-01-2011, 11:30 AM
  #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Sigh.

I did write that plus/minus is an outscoring stat.
Huh? I'm confused. I swear YOU said that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Plus minus is not a defensive stat. It's an outscoring stat.
Plus/minus is relative to the team you play on. While I don't like comparing the stat to other players on other teams, a case can certainly be made from within, especially when other palyers on your team/line are much, much better in that department.

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05-01-2011, 12:13 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
The way they failed to score this year (controlling the play, creating chances, but not getting goals) is fundamentally different from the way they didn't score in previous years (getting dominated in puck possession, and creating few chances). It's a huge difference and it's unfortunate that they got unlucky in shooting at the same time.
I just don't see it, they had better puck possession, but towards the end of the year it seemed to revert back to the habs of old. I don't believe they created great opportunities though. The habs struggle to score 5vs5, plain and simple, why, we can debate it forever, until it changes, all we know is happens nearly every year.

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05-01-2011, 12:43 PM
  #291
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1st Priority --> Sign Andrei Markov
2nd Priority --> Everything else


The Habs need to resign Markov, and make him happy. He has some bad luck, but Markov is one of the top 10 defensemen in the NHL, I still believe he will be when he comes back next season.

I don't believe for a moment that the Wiz will be back if Markov is signed. Not for a second.

I can see them simply going with:

Markov, Subban, Gorges, Gill, Weber, Spacek, and some depth defenseman like Mara, Boynton, or someone like this. There are certainly some nice options out there, but I expect them to get resigned by their teams, or get more money than we would like to spend.

I would enjoy seeing this lineup next year:

FORWARDS
Max Pacioretty ($1.500m) / Scott Gomez ($7.357m) / Brian Gionta ($5.000m)
Mike Cammalleri ($6.000m) / Tomas Plekanec ($5.000m) / Brooks Laich ($3.750m)
Travis Moen ($1.500m) / Lars Eller ($1.270m) / Andrei Kostitsyn ($2.800m)
Ryan White ($0.550m) / David Desharnais ($0.700m) / Mathieu Darche ($0.800m)
/ Tom Pyatt ($0.500m)

DEFENSEMEN
Andrei Markov ($5.250m) / P.K. Subban ($0.875m)
Hal Gill ($1.250m) / Josh Gorges ($2.750m)
Andy Greene ($1.737m) / Yannick Weber ($0.650m)
Jaroslav Spacek ($3.833m)

GOALTENDERS
Carey Price ($2.750m) / Alex Auld ($1.000m)

BUYOUTS: Georges Laraque ($0.500m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $62,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $57,323,809; BONUSES: $400,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $4,676,190

This gives us $4,676,190M in cap space that would allow us to resign Carey and Subban in season next year, and we would still have Spacek's, Moen's contracts coming off the books next season.

I don't know if the Habs will spend up to the cap because of the expected large raises to Carey and Subban, as well as perhaps Max and Lars to a certain extent (I expect a one year contract to Max as his agent will want to see what he can do for a bigger payday perhaps).


Last edited by habspinner: 05-01-2011 at 01:43 PM.
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05-01-2011, 12:49 PM
  #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Huh? I'm confused. I swear YOU said that...
"It's an outscoring stat."

"I did write that plus/minus is an outscoring stat."

Where do you see a contradiction?

I think the confusion might just be a language issue. I wrote outscoring, not scoring, which is the key difference. "Outscoring" is about goals for minus goals against, as opposed to "scoring" which is only about goals for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Plus/minus is relative to the team you play on.
To an extent. Goaltending at either end, of course, is a huge factor, as is the play of your teammates. Because it's a goal metric, luck plays a large part as well. Plus/minus has its flaws and like pretty much any stat, it's best used in conjunction with other stats to contextualize it. To use it on its own to claim someone is not good defensively when he's had trouble getting goals five-on-five, though, shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how the stat is calculated in the first place.

In the case of Gomez, for example, we know the Habs have heavily outshot their opponents when he was on the ice, and we know he was not on the ice for an inordinate number of goals against (slightly more than Plekanec). We know his team's shooting percentage when he was on the ice was terrible, comparable to a goon's. And we know he has not played with goons and fourth-liners.

Ergo, the main reason Gomez was a minus player was lack of offense. The main reason for his lack of offense was a bad shooting percentage by his teammates.

And since we know team-wide shooting percentage is highly volatile and heavily chance-driven, we say that the bad shooting percentage by his teammates was mostly random chance.

Gomez's low point totals and bad plus/minus are both symptoms of the same cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I just don't see it, they had better puck possession, but towards the end of the year it seemed to revert back to the habs of old.
They didn't revert back to the habits of old. The problem is that 2/3rds of their first line at the time (Plekanec/Halpern) got taken out, and clearly weren't 100% when they returned. So their puck possession naturally went down! With the MaxPac injury close, they basically got an entire line knocked out of commission in a short period of time.

Plekanec was a key player for the Habs this year. Injuries to key players have huge knock-on effects. Gomez can sort of manage to do his job. The problem is that Eller cannot do Gomez's job, and Desharnais even less. The guy most able to take it was Halpern and he got hurt in the same game.

Other than that period where Plekanec and Halpern were both hurt or playing hurt, Montreal has not been below water in puck possession all year. Keep in mind this was a club that was lottery-quality at it last year. That's a HUGE difference. Montreal reinvented itself into one of the conference's best 5-on-5 clubs.

Unfortunately, Montreal was also gutshot by injuries this year. Again. Two top D-men, plus Spacek for part of the year. Three top forwards, Pleky, Cammy and MaxPac, either missed time, played injured, or both, not to mention the injury to Halpern. And even despite this, they were comfortably in the black for most of the year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I don't believe they created great opportunities though.
They did. They just wouldn't go in.

Montreal's opponents had a save percentage vs. scoring chances that was comparable to their own. That means the average opposing goalie played like Carey Price. That's just not going to last.

Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
The habs struggle to score 5vs5, plain and simple, why, we can debate it forever, until it changes, all we know is happens nearly every year.
Again, the way they didn't score this year is fundamentally different than the way they didn't score in previous years. There's been a critical sea change in the way they play 5-on-5.

Incidentally, they also outscored their opponents 5-on-5.


Last edited by PyrettaBlaze*: 05-06-2011 at 10:56 PM.
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05-01-2011, 01:22 PM
  #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
They didn't revert back to the habits of old. The problem is that 2/3rds of their first line at the time (Plekanec/Halpern) got taken out, and clearly weren't 100% when they returned. So their puck possession naturally went down! With the MaxPac injury close, they basically got an entire line knocked out of commission in a short period of time.

Plekanec was a key player for the Habs this year. Injuries to key players have huge knock-on effects. Gomez can sort of manage to do his job. The problem is that Eller cannot do Gomez's job, and Desharnais even less. The guy most able to take it was Halpern and he got hurt in the same game.

Other than that period where Plekanec and Halpern were both hurt or playing hurt, Montreal has not been below water in puck possession all year. Keep in mind this was a club that was lottery-quality at it last year. That's a HUGE difference. Montreal reinvented itself into one of the conference's best 5-on-5 clubs.

Unfortunately, Montreal was also gutshot by injuries this year. Again. Two top D-men, plus Spacek for part of the year. Three top forwards, Pleky, Cammy and MaxPac, either missed time, played injured, or both, not to mention the injury to Halpern. And even despite this, they were comfortably in the black for most of the year.



They did. They just wouldn't go in.

Montreal's opponents had a save percentage vs. scoring chances that was comparable to their own. That means the average opposing goalie played like Carey Price. That's just not going to last.



Again, the way they didn't score this year is fundamentally different than the way they didn't score in previous years. There's been a critical sea change in the way they play 5-on-5.

Incidentally, they also outscored their opponents 5-on-5.
I'll take your word for these stats, I know you're a junkie with those type of things, so it's nice to see that there is a market difference.

I don't think the Habs need a massive shift in personnel next year. I think adding a solid top 6 with size like, Brooks Laich, Ville Leino, Kopecky, Upshall (I realize he's smaller), and more.

One thing that we have going for us this year, and going forward is, from all accounts, a really good team, with a really good atmosphere. I would expect that would play into some players thoughts about coming here. With twitter out there now, and a lot of players from the Habs on it, there has been plenty of press about the good atmosphere in that room. Along with the fact that the core does look positive, with some good young talent, I think there is some attractiveness towards the Habs that may not have been there before.

A guy like Laich if he can't resign with Washington would be looking interested towards teams like Montreal. He may get third line minutes on other teams, but he would get first line minutes in Montreal, PP time, and maybe even some PK time if he continues to play well defensively like he has in years prior.

Another depth player may be Brunette, but again I would hazard to guess that he may want to stay in Minny. They also have Miettinen who could be interesting. He's a fast, defensively responsible player.

Anyone know what's going on with Fleischmann? Has he recovered?

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05-01-2011, 01:25 PM
  #294
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I don't think Goat will do anything more than signing 3-4th liners. He's that type of GM that doesn't make a big splash or trade. Anyhow miracles do happen. Ideally I would like us to dump Scott Gomez and a rumor I heard was LA might be interested. Not sure if that's true. I'm not sure about Andrei Markov if he's 100%. But will give him an offer.

Things I would do:
Resign Josh Gorges
Resign Yannick Weber
Resign Lars Eller
Resign Benoit Pouliot
Resign Andrei Kostitsyn
Resign Tom Pyatt

Make offers to:
Andrei Markov (2 years/ $5 mil per)
James Wisniewski (3 years/$4.5 mil per)

So our defense:
Markov-Subban
Wisniewski-Gorges
x-Weber

I rather have puck moving defense than big slow defense.
If Markov and/or Wisniewski decides to leave, we can explore the FA market.

Eric Brewer
Joni Pitkanen
Christian Ehrhoff
Anton Babchuk
Jonathan Ericsson
are all possibilities to replace Markov and Wisniewski.

I would also try to unload Jaroslav Spacek which we may include a pick. If Markov and Wisniewski decides to leave. Our defense would look like this.

Gorges-Subban
Ehrhoff-Pitkanen
Ericsson-Babchuk/Weber
(Goat doesn't have the credentials to pull this by the way).

Our forwards probably will look the same, if somehow we can add 2-3 depth pieces this team would change.

First with Gomez if we can trade him, we can go after Brad Richards. If we can't then Gomez lets hope he wont' have a season like this one.
I would like the team to have a hard look at these forward players.

Tomas Fleischmann
Brooks Laich
Tomas Kopecky
Maxime Talbot
Ville Leino

Lines:
Cammalleri-Gomez-Gionta
Kostitsyn-Plekanec-Pacorietty/Leino/Kopecky
Eller-Talbot/Laich-Fleischmann/Pouliot
Pyatt-White-Darche/try bring up Leblanc slowly

I didn't include Richards because I dont' think we can pull it.


Last edited by ihabfan: 05-01-2011 at 02:28 PM.
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05-01-2011, 01:31 PM
  #295
habspinner
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I don't think Goat will do anything more than signing 3-4th liners. He's that type of GM that doesn't make a big splash or trade. Anyhow miracles do happen. Ideally I would like us to dump Scott Gomez and a rumor I heard was LA might be interested. Not sure if that's true. I'm not sure about Andrei Markov if he's 100%. But will give him an offer.

Things I would do:
Resign Josh Gorges
Resign Yannick Weber
Resign Lars Eller
Resign Benoit Pouliot
Resign Andrei Kostitsyn
Resign Tom Pyatt

Make offers to:
Andrei Markov (2 years/ $5 mil per)
James Wisniewski (3 years/$4.5 mil per)

So our defense:
Markov-Subban
Wisniewski-Gorges
x-Weber

I rather have puck moving defense than big slow defense.
If Markov and/or Wisniewski decides to leave, we can explore the FA market.

Eric Brewer
Joni Pitkanen
Christian Ehrhoff
Anton Babchuk
Jonathan Ericsson
are all possibilities to replace Markov and Wisniewski.

I would also try to unload Jaroslav Spacek which we may include a pick. If Markov and Wisniewski decides to leave. Our defense would look like this.

Gorges-Subban
Ehrhoff-Pitkanen
Ericsson-Babchuk/Weber
(Goat doesn't have the credentials to pull this by the way).

Our forwards probably will look the same, if somehow we can add 2-3 depth pieces this team would change.

First with Gomez if we can trade him, we can go after Brad Richards. If we can't then Gomez lets hope he wont' have a season like this one.
I would like the team to have a hard look at these forward players.

Tomas Fleischmann
Brooks Laich
Tomas Kopecky
Maxime Talbot
Ville Leino

Lines:
Cammalleri-Gomez-Gionta
Kostitsyn-Plekanec-Leino/Kopecky
Eller-Talbot/Laich-Fleischmann/Pouliot
Pyatt-White-Darche/try bring up Leblanc slowly

I didn't include Richards because I dont' think we can pull it.
? Where's Patches, Desharnais, and Moen. I guarantee all 3 of those players are on the team next year.

Pouliot will play not another game for Montreal, Leblanc not this year, and I wouldn't want Talbot on my team.

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05-01-2011, 02:35 PM
  #296
Roke
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I don't understand the infatuation with Ville Leino and I don't believe he's a quality top-6 forward (all stats from behindthenet.ca ).

This past season at even-strength, Leino (.77Goals/60min) scores goals at the same rate as Kostitsyn (.78goals/60min), his primary assists are the same (.77/60min vs .72/60min). The only difference is their secondary assists,and their usefulness as a predictor for future production Isn't all that useful.

Then, when you look at the quality of competition they faced (Kostitsyn clearly superior playing actual top-6 minutes, with Leino facing competition akin to what Eller or Desharnais played against for the Habs).

Finally, looking at the non-neutral zone faceoff% (more offensive zone-faceoffs = greater opportunity to score and less opportunities to allow goals), Leino started 62.3% of his shifts in the offensive zone, finishing 49% in the o-zone while Kostitsyn started 52% in the Offensive zone and finishing 53% in the offensive zone.

It looks to me like Philadelphia had Leino playing easy minutes and getting an inordinate number of offensive opportunities at even-strength because of the light competition and offensive zone faceoffs. He's almost certainly not an upgrade on any of the Habs existing top-6 wingers (Cammalleri, Gionta, Pacioretty, Kostitsyn) and he is likely going to command more on the free agent market than he's worth because of his gaudy point numbers.

The Habs would do well to stay away and look for either a guy who can put up decent points while playing in the top 6 or , if they want to sign a soft-opposition point-getter, a guy like Zherdev who will be cheaper both in terms of salary and length of contract.

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05-01-2011, 02:47 PM
  #297
habspinner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roke View Post
I don't understand the infatuation with Ville Leino and I don't believe he's a quality top-6 forward (all stats from behindthenet.ca ).

This past season at even-strength, Leino (.77Goals/60min) scores goals at the same rate as Kostitsyn (.78goals/60min), his primary assists are the same (.77/60min vs .72/60min). The only difference is their secondary assists,and their usefulness as a predictor for future production Isn't all that useful.

Then, when you look at the quality of competition they faced (Kostitsyn clearly superior playing actual top-6 minutes, with Leino facing competition akin to what Eller or Desharnais played against for the Habs).

Finally, looking at the non-neutral zone faceoff% (more offensive zone-faceoffs = greater opportunity to score and less opportunities to allow goals), Leino started 62.3% of his shifts in the offensive zone, finishing 49% in the o-zone while Kostitsyn started 52% in the Offensive zone and finishing 53% in the offensive zone.

It looks to me like Philadelphia had Leino playing easy minutes and getting an inordinate number of offensive opportunities at even-strength because of the light competition and offensive zone faceoffs. He's almost certainly not an upgrade on any of the Habs existing top-6 wingers (Cammalleri, Gionta, Pacioretty, Kostitsyn) and he is likely going to command more on the free agent market than he's worth because of his gaudy point numbers.

The Habs would do well to stay away and look for either a guy who can put up decent points while playing in the top 6 or , if they want to sign a soft-opposition point-getter, a guy like Zherdev who will be cheaper both in terms of salary and length of contract.
I think it's more to do with the fact that there isn't a ton of top end talent out there this year.

I think the Habs would do better playing Akost in those "soft minute" situations as you speak of. He was at his most successful late in the season with Eller and Moen. They tended to compliment him well.

They need someone out there with top line capabilities to play with Cammy and Pleks. I can't imagine Patches not continuing his success with Gionta and Gomez next year. At least he's shown me enough with his recovery and his play before the injury that he is mentally and physically tough enough to play in the NHL.

I'm with you though, I don't think Leino is the answer.

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05-01-2011, 02:55 PM
  #298
MathMan
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I wonder if we'll see the Habs give a shot to Nigel Dawes as a bottom-sixer. He's been bumped around and I'm not entirely sure why; when the Habs acquired him and Sopel at the same time I figured Dawes was the "hidden card" of that trade (especially since Sopel turned out to be as mediocre as feared) but he stuck with the Bulldogs all year.

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05-01-2011, 03:21 PM
  #299
Rutabaga
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I think it's more to do with the fact that there isn't a ton of top end talent out there this year.

I think the Habs would do better playing Akost in those "soft minute" situations as you speak of. He was at his most successful late in the season with Eller and Moen. They tended to compliment him well.

They need someone out there with top line capabilities to play with Cammy and Pleks. I can't imagine Patches not continuing his success with Gionta and Gomez next year. At least he's shown me enough with his recovery and his play before the injury that he is mentally and physically tough enough to play in the NHL.

I'm with you though, I don't think Leino is the answer.
Well, Kostitsyn did prove that he was at least able to produce while playing these "hard minute". In the market, no one is a clear upgrade over Kostitsyn, and worse, they are likely to be paid much more than AK.

So i would rather have a good 3rd liner to get Plekanec off the PK, and be able to play on the Top-6 when we have an injury. Thats easier to find and to pay.
And with the "easy minute" he gets, thats likely to help him with the integration etc...

Next season, though (so, 12-13), we should be able to upgrade over AK.

Anyway, i pretty much agree with you. Thats refreshing too see some argumentation.

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05-01-2011, 03:24 PM
  #300
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They didn't revert back to the habits of old. The problem is that 2/3rds of their first line at the time (Plekanec/Halpern) got taken out, and clearly weren't 100% when they returned. So their puck possession naturally went down! With the MaxPac injury close, they basically got an entire line knocked out of commission in a short period of time.

Plekanec was a key player for the Habs this year. Injuries to key players have huge knock-on effects. Gomez can sort of manage to do his job. The problem is that Eller cannot do Gomez's job, and Desharnais even less. The guy most able to take it was Halpern and he got hurt in the same game.

Other than that period where Plekanec and Halpern were both hurt or playing hurt, Montreal has not been below water in puck possession all year. Keep in mind this was a club that was lottery-quality at it last year. That's a HUGE difference. Montreal reinvented itself into one of the conference's best 5-on-5 clubs.

Unfortunately, Montreal was also gutshot by injuries this year. Again. Two top D-men, plus Spacek for part of the year. Three top forwards, Pleky, Cammy and MaxPac, either missed time, played injured, or both, not to mention the injury to Halpern. And even despite this, they were comfortably in the black for most of the year.



They did. They just wouldn't go in.

Montreal's opponents had a save percentage vs. scoring chances that was comparable to their own. That means the average opposing goalie played like Carey Price. That's just not going to last.



Again, the way they didn't score this year is fundamentally different than the way they didn't score in previous years. There's been a critical sea change in the way they play 5-on-5.

Incidentally, they also outscored their opponents 5-on-5.
You can't prove any of this, so we'll have to agree to disagree and move on.

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