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Biggest hole on Habs' gameplan

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Old
04-28-2011, 11:02 AM
  #26
impudent_lowlife
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
They were one of the better 5-on-5 clubs this season, just couldn't buy a goal.

That's a problem that just fixes itself, though, because it's mostly chance. Boston was as bad as Montreal at it last year, and this year went completely the other way with pretty much the same roster.
The Habs ranked 26th in the league this year, 40 goals behind Boston, in 5-on-5 scoring. This trend carried on into their first round loss to the Bruins.

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04-28-2011, 11:13 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Of course you won't think Martin's good with youngsters if you attribute the successes of every youngster to other people, but blame the lack of success of others on him.
I mean come on, you're basically saying Good youngster--->Not Martin's doing, Bad Youngsters---->Martin's fault. Doesn't seem like a fair observation to me.
Yeah when I read his post I was thinking the exact same thing.

This is essentially what his post is. "Let's take all the quality habs youth and lump them into some group that Martin had no involvement in, then let's take the group of struggling/failing youth and blame them on Martin".

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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
For me, their is no "biggest hole" on the team. Rather, a bunch of small holes that work together, as if they were one big hole.

Injuries: I'm one that hates falling back on this, but this year, it's hard not to. Markov, arguable the Habs best defenseman. Gorges, arguable the Habs best shut-down defenseman. Pacioretty, top 6 forward that had both Gomez and Gionta playing well. You take away those three, the top 6 is a mess and Martin has to rely more on aged defenseman that are not able to keep up at times.

5-on-5 production: Worked well for the Habs during the season, but during the post-season, was non existant. Chalk it up to injuries again, or poor game plan but this team could not got their game going and for the few times they did, lady luck was not on their side.

Defense: Again, because of injuries. Martin needed to rely more on guys like Gill, Hamrlik, Spacek and Sopel. Yes, they are decent defensemen. All of them. However, they are past their prime now and when logging minutes the way they do, make poor decisions defensively wise, due to fatigue.

Look at it any way you'd like, but to me, those three "holes" as one would put it, were the reason why a. Montreal could not score and b. Why Montreal could not maintain the puck in the offensive zone long enough for a few more goals.
So what you're saying is that all three holes need to be filled then?

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04-28-2011, 11:13 AM
  #28
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The only way forward is to unload the passengers: Gomez, Kostitsyn

And get some health in Markov, Gorges, Patches

Upgrade or get a salary reduction from: Hammer

The kids received invaluable experience from this series, but I don't think Eller is ready to be a second line center just yet.

Again, if we can dump Gomez and sign Richards, we are light years ahead. I'd prefer to see Kosty dealt and we sign Justin Williams. And then pick up Ville Leino for the third line to play with Eller.

In an ideal world.. unless there is a trade out there..

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04-28-2011, 11:16 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by tinyzombies View Post
The only way forward is to unload the passengers: Gomez, Kostitsyn

And get some health in Markov, Gorges, Patches

Upgrade or get a salary reduction from: Hammer

The kids received invaluable experience from this series, but I don't think Eller is ready to be a second line center just yet.

Again, if we can dump Gomez and sign Richards, we are light years ahead. I'd prefer to see Kosty dealt and we sign Justin Williams. And then pick up Ville Leino for the third line to play with Eller.

In an ideal world.. unless there is a trade out there..
Kostitsyn is perfect to play with Eller. Those two on the 3rd line would burn defenses apart. Gomez to Richards I don't think is doable.

The hole in our game plan was our defensemen fronting the forwards in our zone. This passive resistance stuff is fine keeping the other team to the outside. But when they get pucks on goal, you have to be between the forward and the goalie to clear pucks. Philly killed us last year on rebounds and Boston this year got 3 game winners I believe on it. I don't think that's a size issue because it's a positioning thing but it happens all the time.

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04-28-2011, 11:29 AM
  #30
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The team was 26th in offense last year, 22nd this year.
Last 2 years they have gone into the playoffs as the lowest scoring team.

This can't be addressed until management addresses head on the problem known as Gomez.
This is what Gauthier is paid to do. Assess, determine gaps, improve, repeat. If he can't do it someone else should be put in to replace him.

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04-28-2011, 11:35 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by optimus2861 View Post
In the last 5 years Montreal has finished 27th, 2nd, 18th, 30th, and 26th in GF 5-on-5. Aside from the statistical outlier that was the 2008 season, this has been a pretty consistent issue with the Canadiens.
Except this year their problem has been shooting luck, not inability to generate offense. That's a huge difference because shooting percentage is something that strongly regresses to the mean year over year. It's also, however, something you cannot fix with personnel changes.

How bad was their shooting luck? So bad that the opposing team ended up with a better save percentage vs. Montreal than the Habs goalies did. Yes, that means Montreal was effectively facing Carey Price every game.

They left at least 20, and probably more like 30, 5-on-5 goals on the table due to sheer shooting luck. The myth of the popgun offense is going to last this offseason, but assuming the Habs play this well next year, we should see an explosion.

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04-28-2011, 11:40 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Of course you won't think Martin's good with youngsters if you attribute the successes of every youngster to other people, but blame the lack of success of others on him.
I mean come on, you're basically saying Good youngster--->Not Martin's doing, Bad Youngsters---->Martin's fault. Doesn't seem like a fair observation to me.
So which of DD, Patches or Price would you attribute to Martin?

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04-28-2011, 11:42 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Yeah when I read his post I was thinking the exact same thing.

This is essentially what his post is. "Let's take all the quality habs youth and lump them into some group that Martin had no involvement in, then let's take the group of struggling/failing youth and blame them on Martin".



So what you're saying is that all three holes need to be filled then?
The word "hole" is in fact not appropriate. "Problem" is.

The injuries killed us. We're talking about 3 players that combined around 55 mins of icetime per game...
With them out, our D is too old to play nicely during 23 mins for 90 games.
Then, Hamrlik and Gill are asked to do more than they should (and are able to), which leads to a lower level of confidence by the forwards, especially when they try to apply some pressure, as you cant let our D alone, and one thing leads to an other, we're just average on 5vs5.

Yes, we dont score, but as our ratio was positive (1.01, 16th in the league), i think that we dont get scored on either.

---

We need to find a real 3rd liner and be able to create a real 3rd line, who could relieve Plekanec from his defensive responsabilities.

There is nobody available this summer that is a clear upgrade over Kostitsyn, so, we have to focus on this. Fresher legs for Plekanec and in a lesser extent Gionta, and that means we're more likely to be more efficient offensively.

And we need more mobility on defense. With an healthy group, that will be better. But a guy like Gill, with Spacek already in the place...i dont know...

The only problem being that almost no one is interesting as a UFA and likely to be available at a fair price.
Brewer is perfect for me, but i dont think its going to be possible, unfortunately.

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04-28-2011, 11:43 AM
  #34
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There's nothing wrong with how Martin handles kids. He gradually puts them in tougher and tougher situations without throwing them into the fire, and measures well how far along they are.

My favorite example: asking DD to handle top-6 forwards would not have been giving him a favor. For one thing, Eller was ahead on the depth chart. More importantly, DD would have gotten torched and would have looked really bad. So Martin sheltered him, while slowly increasing his responsibilities. But he was giving Eller gradually tougher and tougher minutes.

And if someone is floundering, like Pouliot was, he's going to get his role curtailed.

Not everyone can progress at Subban pace.

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04-28-2011, 11:45 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
We need to find a real 3rd liner and be able to create a real 3rd line, who could relieve Plekanec from his defensive responsabilities.
Most coaches play power on power nowadays. The concept of a purely defensive third line that takes on the tough competition is in the minority these days. Barring the arrival of a superior center (fat chance!) Plekanec should, and will, get the toughest minutes again next year.

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04-28-2011, 11:53 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
So which of DD, Patches or Price would you attribute to Martin?
Every one of them. I'm not saying Martin has been coaching them since they were babies and so deserves the credit for every little thing.
Every coach they ever played for deserve some share of credit, the players themselves deserve credit, Martin also deserves credit.
Martin doesn't just throw them on the ice, give them 20min and says ''go get us some goals''. Don't you think they are learning a system? Don't you think they learn things every day in the NHL?? If they make mistakes, Martin might punish them, and yea that's how most people learn. Martin is the one that decides how to utilize them, etc..
Didn't Martin fly down last year to go see Carey in his home town and discuss things with him? Don't you think Martin used Price perfectly this year?? Oh right, that's thanks to Groulx.

I mean, dude, you might not see it, but Martin did a great job.

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04-28-2011, 11:59 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Every one of them. I'm not saying Martin has been coaching them since they were babies and so deserves the credit for every little thing.
Every coach they ever played for deserve some share of credit, the players themselves deserve credit, Martin also deserves credit.
Martin doesn't just throw them on the ice, give them 20min and says ''go get us some goals''. Don't you think they are learning a system? Don't you think they learn things every day in the NHL?? If they make mistakes, Martin might punish them, and yea that's how most people learn. Martin is the one that decides how to utilize them, etc..
Didn't Martin fly down last year to go see Carey in his home town and discuss things with him? Don't you think Martin used Price perfectly this year?? Oh right, that's thanks to Groulx.

I mean, dude, you might not see it, but Martin did a great job.
Martin didn't do an awful job....but strangely the most problematic guys, the ones that needed some maturity and growing up to do, all are gone or are about to go. This is the toughest job of all. Being able to do a brain transplantation to some. I mean, whether it's Pyatt, White, DD or Patch, you know that those guys would have performed just as equally good wherever they would be playing. They're 100% heart, and Martin or not, it would not changed a thing. What we can say Martin contributed to their game is actually their development as complete hockey player. He didn't start anything but he perfected it. But I'd wish Martin would be able to take a not easy student and make him an "A" student. That's for me is a tougher challenge.

Possible that Martin should be recognized for Price though who was not a model to say the least. Chances are if not Martin, Groulx did a hell of a job, yet if true, Martin let Groulx do his thing which he has to be saluted for.

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04-28-2011, 12:00 PM
  #38
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Biggest hole in the game is giving Scott Gomez ice time as if he's a good center.

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04-28-2011, 12:02 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
So which of DD, Patches or Price would you attribute to Martin?
Price probably got more inspired by what Pat Burns said to him, whatever it was. Martin is a pure Xs and Os guy. He's not one of those self-help books that can fix up people's lives.

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04-28-2011, 12:08 PM
  #40
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Gameplan was sound...games could have gone either way.

As far as execution goes, inability to win faceoffs was a huge factor imo...the series was that close so those stats stick out for me.

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04-28-2011, 12:16 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Martin didn't do an awful job....but strangely the most problematic guys, the ones that needed some maturity and growing up to do, all are gone or are about to go. This is the toughest job of all. But I'd wish Martin would be able to take a not easy student and make him an "A" student. That's for me is a tougher challenge.
Yet other coaches are able to do it. This is my point exactly.

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04-28-2011, 12:21 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Most coaches play power on power nowadays. The concept of a purely defensive third line that takes on the tough competition is in the minority these days. Barring the arrival of a superior center (fat chance!) Plekanec should, and will, get the toughest minutes again next year.
I know. But still, even if we go power on power, having a solid 3rd line is something we have been missing during these last 2 seasons, in the sense that it surely matters when it comes to matchups.

I will just say that Eller's line played Krejci's during the first two games, so its still an option.

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04-28-2011, 12:21 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by optimus2861 View Post
In the last 5 years Montreal has finished 27th, 2nd, 18th, 30th, and 26th in GF 5-on-5. Aside from the statistical outlier that was the 2008 season, this has been a pretty consistent issue with the Canadiens.
We finished 9th in GF 5-on-5 in 2007-08.

Still a huge fluke.

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04-28-2011, 12:23 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
Being able to score 5-on-5 is where big improvements are needed.
bang on thats our problem

special teams and a hot goalie cant always carry you

but we have many needs ....this team is a middle of the pack lineup at best

DEFENSE

let all the old UFA`S go ...take the cap and get me a Bieksa or 2 upgrades than
what we have . We have to end the Hammer and Gill era ...too old to help out

Markov luv yu but see yu ....a waste of cap dollars and we proved we can do it without him

WIZ take about 4 and sign or let him walk ..you cant have him eating 5-6 mil

the reason you let them all go is simple ....none can be anything in the next 3 years
for this team either washed up or will never be the same as in Markov and I dont see PG shelling out 4-5 mil for this .

remember one thing we can do ....take the cap money and go shopping when a team is in dump mode this way part of a contract is already paid for and shorter

Vancouver may want to rid of Ballard who is locked up ....Atlanta may want to get rid of Oduya ...etc.....

FORWARDS

do whatever it takes and move Gomez .....its a moveable contract
he is still in his prime ...many teams need centers and his dollars are only about 5.5 the next 3 years ......a deal is doable

Eller and Max must play on the top 6 and let them go

they are the only futures we have with upside on this roster

we have nothing ready to go in Leblanc or Kristo or Palushy

kosty ....in the 3 mil range I can live with ...if it gets higher let him walk

we can find a 20 goal scorer on the cheap in free agency just like we found a solid checker in Halpern for cheap

there is no help from the farm or kids so the future really is up to PK and Price to develop into stars

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04-28-2011, 12:29 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
I know. But still, even if we go power on power, having a solid 3rd line is something we have been missing during these last 2 seasons, in the sense that it surely matters when it comes to matchups.
Agree, but as you point out, the Habs have Eller. Give him a solid top-6 winger type like Andrei and you have the makings of a fantastic outscoring third line with tough-minute ability, especially since Eller is going to improve (eventually, he will displace Gomez).

No need to go looking for a "defensive guy".

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04-28-2011, 12:38 PM
  #46
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Agree, but as you point out, the Habs have Eller. Give him a solid top-6 winger type like Andrei and you have the makings of a fantastic outscoring third line with tough-minute ability, especially since Eller is going to improve (eventually, he will displace Gomez).

No need to go looking for a "defensive guy".
Well, with Eller and Desharnais in the roster, i think that it might be a good idea to sign a proven 3rd liner, a guy reliable and able to an efficient player when it comes to the defensive part of the job.
Not that i dont trust them, but they're rookies. Well, sophomores. And with a player like Pouliot, we dont exactly know what to do, i think we could give it a shot, but anyway, it will mainly be a financial problem. If we could have a fair price with that player, fine, but otherwise, well, lets go with Pyatt.

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04-28-2011, 12:40 PM
  #47
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What we need is a guy like Paul Gaustad.

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04-28-2011, 01:14 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Agree, but as you point out, the Habs have Eller. Give him a solid top-6 winger type like Andrei and you have the makings of a fantastic outscoring third line with tough-minute ability, especially since Eller is going to improve (eventually, he will displace Gomez).

No need to go looking for a "defensive guy".
I also forgot to mention that as much as i like to see Plekanec on the ice, i am not that happy to see him playing almost 3:00 SH.
Having a player to cut down that icetime to help him to be better at ES or on the PP, that could be useful.

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04-28-2011, 01:16 PM
  #49
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Except this year their problem has been shooting luck, not inability to generate offense. That's a huge difference because shooting percentage is something that strongly regresses to the mean year over year. It's also, however, something you cannot fix with personnel changes.
Taking Scott "Pea Shooter" Gomez's 7-for-157 out of the lineup (4.46%!) wouldn't hurt though

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04-28-2011, 01:21 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by optimus2861 View Post
Taking Scott "Pea Shooter" Gomez's 7-for-157 out of the lineup (4.46%!) wouldn't hurt though
Gomez has always been an usually bad shooter, but he also usually shoots more than this. In fact with the Rangers he was one of the league leaders in total shots.

Reducing his shot volume at a time when the team overall greatly increased theirs brings his relative importance down and since everyone on the team is a better shot, it should've normally led to a better shooting percentage, and ergo more goals.

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