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Mission Impossible: Landing Brad Richards

View Poll Results: If the Sabres sign Brad Richards, how much will they sign him for? (average salary)
Less than $6m 2 1.29%
6.0 - 6.5m 10 6.45%
6.5 - 7.0m 30 19.35%
7.0 - 7.5m 39 25.16%
7.5 - 8.0m 47 30.32%
8.0 - 8.5m 18 11.61%
More than $8.5m 9 5.81%
Voters: 155. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-30-2011, 05:55 PM
  #76
joshjull
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Originally Posted by SoFFacet View Post
Any player will produce more in the presence of better teammates. Good players on the same line directly help eachother, and having enough good players to put together multiple threatening lines will help each of them partially escape persecution by the enemy's best defenders. Again this is true of any player.

Right now I think the best you can say is that we can't know if Roy is as good as any of the big 3 PHL centers. It certainly doesn't appear that way but it could just be the critical mass of talented skaters making each player look ridiculous.

In any case its not like anyone would be interesting in exchanging #1Cs with us, so its a moot point. The bottom line is that we need more good skaters to add to the few good ones we have now.
Actually thats the exact assbackwards thinking that is driving me crazy.

The question is can any of the Philly centers be as effective without the stacked lineup they play in right now.

Because Roy has put up the numbers he has playing with far less talent and with no cover. As in he hasn't had the benefit of another very effective center taking the heat off of him offensively. Thats why when he struggles he gets hammered by fans since we have no one to pick up the slack.

Its bizarre that you think the question should be can Roy be as effective on a stacked team like Philly.

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04-30-2011, 06:16 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Actually thats the exact assbackwards thinking that is driving me crazy.

The question is can any of the Philly centers be as effective without the stacked lineup they play in right now.

Because Roy has put up the numbers he has playing with far less talent and with no cover. As in he hasn't had the benefit of another very effective center taking the heat off of him offensively. Thats why when he struggles he gets hammered by fans since we have no one to pick up the slack.

Its bizarre that you think the question should be can Roy be as effective on a stacked team like Philly.
Its the same question dude, you're getting mad over nothing. How much more effective would Roy be on a stacked team? How much less effective would Briere/Richards/Giroux be on a non-stacked team? The point is we can't know.

It seems to me that you're just taking issue with initially presuming Roy is worse until proven better. If thats the case then whatever dude, you're the only one who thinks that way.

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04-30-2011, 06:58 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by SoFFacet View Post
Its the same question dude, you're getting mad over nothing. How much more effective would Roy be on a stacked team? How much less effective would Briere/Richards/Giroux be on a non-stacked team? The point is we can't know.

It seems to me that you're just taking issue with initially presuming Roy is worse until proven better. If thats the case then whatever dude, you're the only one who thinks that way.
Actually dude its not the same question.


When someone is in secondary scoring role it has an impact on their production.

Vanek playing on the 06-07 team was in such a role and had his best numbers of his career. Due in large part to his amazing ES numbers. He had 62 ES points which was tied for 3rd most in the NHL. The next year he was elevated to the #1 line. He has has been unable to transfer his ES production from that year (62pts) to any season since (40, 36, 36 and 45 ES pts the last 4 seasons).

Guys like Giroux, Kesler etc benefit offensively from playing behind strong offensive lines. This is hardly a revolutionary concept.

The point being is we know what Roy can do offensively as a #1` center. He has already proven what he can do offensively in that #1 role. But those guys haven't. From my way of thinking having done something as an actual #1 center should count more in the debate than what someone has done in a secondary role. There are no guarantees they can maintain their production if they were elevated to the top line.


We'ved lived through watching players (Vanek/Roy/Stafford and Max) try to go from a secondary scoring line to a #1 line and struggle to maintain their offensive production.


But I will also say that our situation was pretty unique. I can't imagine any other team being dumb enough to let their best 2 centers leave in the same offseason. Then force a whole bunch of players to jump up the depth chart at once.

So I must concede that its unlikely any of those players are forced into the situation Roy was.


I am a little mad but its at myself. When I get wound up I do a poor job of making my point

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04-30-2011, 07:08 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
We'ved lived through watching players (Vanek/Roy/Stafford and Max) try to go from a secondary scoring line to a #1 line and struggle to maintain their offensive production.
Well that's true of everyone except Roy, maybe. He had the most productive season of his career that year. Who knows...maybe he plays his best when everyone else is playing like crap? Maybe everything just went right? Either way, he didn't really struggle offensively.

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04-30-2011, 07:12 PM
  #80
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Well that's true of everyone except Roy, maybe. He had the most productive season of his career that year. Who knows...maybe he plays his best when everyone else is playing like crap? Maybe everything just went right? Either way, he didn't really struggle offensively.
I didn't mean to imply Roy struggled. I was saying we've watched those guys try to make the transition. Roy is the only one that made it.

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04-30-2011, 07:42 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Actually dude its not the same question.


When someone is in secondary scoring role it has an impact on their production.

Vanek playing on the 06-07 team was in such a role and had his best numbers of his career. Due in large part to his amazing ES numbers. He had 62 ES points which was tied for 3rd most in the NHL. The next year he was elevated to the #1 line. He has has been unable to transfer his ES production from that year (62pts) to any season since (40, 36, 36 and 45 ES pts the last 4 seasons).

Guys like Giroux, Kesler etc benefit offensively from playing behind strong offensive lines. This is hardly a revolutionary concept.

The point being is we know what Roy can do offensively as a #1` center. He has already proven what he can do offensively in that #1 role. But those guys haven't. From my way of thinking having done something as an actual #1 center should count more in the debate than what someone has done in a secondary role. There are no guarantees they can maintain their production if they were elevated to the top line.


We'ved lived through watching players (Vanek/Roy/Stafford and Max) try to go from a secondary scoring line to a #1 line and struggle to maintain their offensive production.


But I will also say that our situation was pretty unique. I can't imagine any other team being dumb enough to let their best 2 centers leave in the same offseason. Then force a whole bunch of players to jump up the depth chart at once.

So I must concede that its unlikely any of those players are forced into the situation Roy was.


I am a little mad but its at myself. When I get wound up I do a poor job of making my point

Well, all I can tells ya is that the #1 line is the line that the coaches roll out their best defense men against. And in recent years, that has been whatever line Roy is on. And he's had good success at ES and on the PP. Is he an elite #1 center? Probably not, but he gets the job done and in fact he may have been on the verge of his best season before the injury.

I would also like to say that the center doesn't dictate which line is the best, nobody game plans against Ovechkin's center, they game plan against Ovechkin. Which leads me (and rather smoothly I might add) to my original point: the Sabres have considerable talent on the wings. Even more so now that Connolly is on his way out and Boyes is here. Boyes is more than likely going to be a winger next season, after that 15-20 game stint as a center he was not a pivotal factor in any of those games (well except the last game of the regular season).

So for all intents and purposes your #1 could be:

Vanek-Physical Center, preferably large, good at draws, great at doing all the dirty work and taking up lots of space for his wingers, decent skater who is very reliable defensively and will put up about 50 points as a results of his hard work and not as much due to his raw talent-Stafford

Ennis-Roy-Pomminville-faster line, smallish, not very physical, but they will be following lengthy shifts from the #1 line and will face either a tired top defense men or their 2nd tandem

Hecht-Gaustad-Boyes-potentially good all around line, could provide a lot of secondary scoring and reliable play.

Gerbe-McCormick-Kaleta- Same pain in the butt line but with more special teams play to up their minutes


Do you see what I'm saying? Richard's just doesn't fit in. They really do not need him, they could be better WITHOUT him (and I say that with much respect for his ability), and they REALLY do not need his cap hit.

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04-30-2011, 07:50 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Play4Miracles View Post
Well, all I can tells ya is that the #1 line is the line that the coaches roll out their best defense men against. And in recent years, that has been whatever line Roy is on. And he's had good success at ES and on the PP. Is he an elite #1 center? Probably not, but he gets the job done and in fact he may have been on the verge of his best season before the injury.

I would also like to say that the center doesn't dictate which line is the best, nobody game plans against Ovechkin's center, the game plan against Ovechkin. Which leads me (and rather smoothly I might add) to my original point: the Sabres have considerable talent on the wings. Even more so now that Connolly is on his way out and Boyes is here. Boyes is more than likely going to be a winger next season, after that 15-20 game stint as a center he was not a pivotal factor in any of those games (well except the last game of the regular season).

So for an intents and purposes your #1 could be:

Vanek-Physical Center, preferably large, good at draws, great at doing all the dirty work and taking up lots of space for his wingers, decent skater who is very reliable defensively and will put up about 50 points as a results of his hard work and not as much due to his raw talent-Stafford

Ennis-Roy-Pomminville-faster line, smallish, not very physical, but they will be following lengthy shifts from the #1 line and will face either a tired top defense men or their 2nd tandem

Hecht-Gaustad-Boyes-potentially good all around line, could provide a lot of secondary scoring and reliable play.

Gerbe-McCormick-Kaleta- Same pain in the butt line but with more special teams play to up their minutes


Do you see what I'm saying? Richard's just doesn't fit in. They really do not need him, they could be better WITHOUT him (and I say that with much respect for his ability), and they REALLY do not need his cap hit.
I like you're thinking


Adding a two way 20+g 50+pt durable center, along with another good vet bottom 6 center, should have us in good shape due to our strength on the wings.


I don't think we have to swing for the fences with a center addition. Although I can live with it if we do.

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04-30-2011, 07:55 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I like you're thinking


Adding a two way 20+g 50+pt durable center along with a good 3rd line center should have us in good shape due to our strength on the wings.


I don't think we have to swing for the fences with a center addition. Although I can live with it if we do.
Good, now that we both agree and are on the same page, where the heck is this center and how do we get him! lol

Jordan Staal, but we're looking at waving goodbye to a Kassian or Ennis for him. Very costly.

Brian Boyle of the rangers would be an interesting addition, but I don't think the Rangers are looking to part with him.

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04-30-2011, 08:04 PM
  #84
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So the Rangers might try to make a blockbuster trade instead of signing Brad Richards. That would be good for us, unless they somehow get Ryan Getzlaf or someone like that for a return that we could have matched.

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04-30-2011, 08:07 PM
  #85
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After watching the Rangers a ton since they're my brother's favorite team, Boyle doesn't belong anywhere near the top 6, he's a 3rd / 4th line center at best. He has stone hands and after a hot start was terrible down the stretch. I'd be a fan of getting him to be the other center opposite Goose in the bottom 6 but if you want him to be in the top 6 you're going to be quickly disappointed. Plus he actually played a lot of wing down the stretch and a lot of Rangers fans project him to be on their 4th line next year as a LW.

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04-30-2011, 08:08 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by thefifagod View Post
After watching the Rangers a ton since they're my brother's favorite team, Boyle doesn't belong anywhere near the top 6, he's a 3rd / 4th line center at best. He has stone hands and after a hot start was terrible down the stretch. I'd be a fan of getting him to be the other center opposite Goose in the bottom 6 but if you want him to be in the top 6 you're going to be quickly disappointed. Plus he actually played a lot of wing down the stretch and a lot of Rangers fans project him to be on their 4th line next year as a LW.
Thats my thinking on him as well.

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04-30-2011, 08:08 PM
  #87
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So the Rangers might try to make a blockbuster trade instead of signing Brad Richards. That would be good for us, unless they somehow get Ryan Getzlaf or someone like that for a return that we could have matched.
Do you really think someone like Getzlaf or anyone close to his caliber of player could be had? Maybe you've heard something I haven't but I haven't heard anything about top centers being available in a trade, let alone a franchise guy like Getzlaf. I'd be stunned if they don't take the Richards route.

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04-30-2011, 08:13 PM
  #88
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I was just saying Ryan Getzlaf, I wouldn't think he's available at all. But then again you never know.

Here's the thread on the Trade board: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=909951

Sounds like they're trying to get someone better than Richards if they want to make the trade before July 1st.

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04-30-2011, 08:16 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by thefifagod View Post
After watching the Rangers a ton since they're my brother's favorite team, Boyle doesn't belong anywhere near the top 6, he's a 3rd / 4th line center at best. He has stone hands and after a hot start was terrible down the stretch. I'd be a fan of getting him to be the other center opposite Goose in the bottom 6 but if you want him to be in the top 6 you're going to be quickly disappointed. Plus he actually played a lot of wing down the stretch and a lot of Rangers fans project him to be on their 4th line next year as a LW.
I don't know, he hits like a tank and his line mates in NY were not very talented. He's a guy who could get in there on the fore-check and really get things going for Vanek and Stafford to work some magic. He would probably pick up a lot of 2nd (or the unrecorded 3rd) assists working with two skilled wingers.

But, it could be that he's not fast enough to play center.

Well there's always Stoll from LA, maybe they could trade for him?

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04-30-2011, 08:34 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Play4Miracles View Post
I don't know, he hits like a tank and his line mates in NY were not very talented. He's a guy who could get in there on the fore-check and really get things going for Vanek and Stafford to work some magic. He would probably pick up a lot of 2nd (or the unrecorded 3rd) assists working with two skilled wingers.

But, it could be that he's not fast enough to play center.

Well there's always Stoll from LA, maybe they could trade for him?
He got bumped into the top 6 with all of their injuries and got playing time with Gaborik, Callahan, Wolski, Dubinsky, etc. Maybe they aren't as skilled as Vanek and Stafford. Thing is, Boyle is the one that really isn't talented. My belief is that Boyle will end up around 10-12 goals next year and his 21 this year were an admiration.

I agree that Stoll would be a nice addition to make, it's been talked around here a lot before. With Schenn coming into the lineup next year he probably could be had for the right price. We'd probably have to give up Stafford or Pominville to get him and I don't know if I'd be up for it.

We could always gets Richards on top of Stoll too while still having one of Poms and Stafford and Boyes on the RW and Vanek and Hecht on the left wing. Gerbe and Stoll could be a deadly combo together on the 3rd line if that were the case.

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04-30-2011, 08:44 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by thefifagod View Post
He got bumped into the top 6 with all of their injuries and got playing time with Gaborik, Callahan, Wolski, Dubinsky, etc. Maybe they aren't as skilled as Vanek and Stafford. Thing is, Boyle is the one that really isn't talented. My belief is that Boyle will end up around 10-12 goals next year and his 21 this year were an admiration.

I agree that Stoll would be a nice addition to make, it's been talked around here a lot before. With Schenn coming into the lineup next year he probably could be had for the right price. We'd probably have to give up Stafford or Pominville to get him and I don't know if I'd be up for it.

We could always gets Richards on top of Stoll too while still having one of Poms and Stafford and Boyes on the RW and Vanek and Hecht on the left wing. Gerbe and Stoll could be a deadly combo together on the 3rd line if that were the case.
That's interesting, I would be cool with trading Pomminville for Stoll but not Stafford. They could then maybe bump Boyes up to the second line and bring in somebody new to play RW on the 3rd line, who knows maybe even Kassian if he has a great camp.

Still not interested in Richard's though, this just isn't the summer for the Sabres to go after another big contract player.

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04-30-2011, 08:50 PM
  #92
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I know that's your opinion that we can't handle his contract but I have to disagree with it. We have 20+ million in cap space this summer with only a bunch of RFAs to sign (all relatively cheap besides Stafford) and then 12 million + coming off the books the year after to take care of Myers, Ennis and resigning whoever we'd like to. Adding in Kassian, Foligno, Byron, Adam, and defensemen (possibly some of Schiestel, McNabb, Psysk, Brennan, etc.) 2 years from now on ELC's will make it fairly easy to fit Richards' salary in, especially considering the cap will probably keep going up with this new television deal in place.

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05-01-2011, 02:01 PM
  #93
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In my opinion.....

When it comes to Roy, and whether or not he is a legit #1 center, can he lead a team to the promised land, etc., etc., I think we are missing the evidence. Roy has produced and deserves to be a #1a or #1b center.

The evidence shows that there isn't a #2, or good #3 center on the Sabres, which is why it is unfair to scrutinize Roy.

Last year (2009-10) we won the division, and that year Connolly played 73 games and put up 65 points, and was a +10....a decent line for a #2 center. This year he was non-existent with a line of 68 games played, 42 points and a -10. The Sabres struggled to make the post season.

There is the evidence. We need another center to take similiar responsibilites that Roy has. Period. If you look at the centers that played this year for the Sabres (Byron, Gausted, Neids, Connolly, Hecht, Adams, McCormick, Ellis and Boyes), who do you see there that is at least a capable 2nd line center?????? Let alone a decent 3rd line center. They are all stop gaps. We have had no reliable depth at Center behind Roy, so all the pressure has fallen onto him....and all as he has done is put up points at a .9 per game pace.

When we talk about Connolly, what are we all saying now? We all say he wouldn't be bad to bring back IF (YES, IF) he will be willing to play PK and center the 3RD LINE!!!!! The 3rd Line!!!!

Yes, I would love to have a true Top 15 Center (Crosby, Malkin, E. Staal, Kopitar, Thorton, Richards, Richards, Towes, Backstrum, Zetteberg, Datsuyk, Koivu, Sedin etc) but the reality if it is, if we had a decent sized guy playing one of the top 2 line center position, we'd be ok.

IMO, I think we are going after Malkin. It's a gut feeling and I have said it over and over the last 6 months.

BUT

I think we need to go out and sign/trade for a solid 3rd line center, and a 2nd line center. I feel Roy is just about as offensive a guy you could get for the center position, and with our depth of wingers, adding 2 decent guys for the 2nd & 3rd line would let us roll out 4 solid lines.

Vanek - Roy - Pomms
Ennis - xxx - Stafford
Hecht - xxx - Boyes
Gerbe - Gausted - Kaleta

I really have no problems with our wingers, well maybe a little more BANG from them but reality is, we have a pretty nice, well rounded set of wingers. Add the 2 centers and we'd be fine.

Personally, I want no more of Connolly. Like one poster said of Hecht and Connolly, what good are they if they are always injured for the playoffs?

AND....all this nonsense of bringing back Grier and Neids....please stop. They were 2 of our worst players all year. Neids showed up for the last month and in the playoffs but we are building a team for the next couple years and 2 guys that will be 37 next year SHOULD NOT be in our plans. 2 slow guys. 2 guys that have skeptical skill sets. 2 guys that seem to be playing for money, not the love of the game. I'm all for a veteran leader on this team but I want one with skills, that makes the other linemates better, someone like what Recci brings to Boston, or the clutch guy Stillman has been. Speaking of Stillman, I would love to see him offered a 1 year contract, as this year he still brought it every shift, played 65 games and had 39 points at 37...a warrior, a winner.

Stoll (trade), J Staal(trade), B Laich(UFA), Pavelski (dreaming, trade), V Filppula (trade), Brassard (trade), Vermette (trade), Arnott (UFA), Handzus (UFA), M Cullen (trade), E Belanger (UFA), A Steen (trade) are some of the centers that I'd look at.

As I stated above, get another solid 60 point center, that can play against the other teams #1 center, and we have a team. Would I love Richards, sure but is it realistic, or needed? Not really. Give me 2 guys that will bang a bit down the middle and we're ok. Stoll for the 3rd line, and Brooks Laich for the second, unless we can pull of the Malkin deal!

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05-01-2011, 02:52 PM
  #94
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Regier needs to stop being such an ass and just draft a center in the 1st round.

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05-01-2011, 03:44 PM
  #95
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Give me 2 guys that will bang a bit down the middle and we're ok. Stoll for the 3rd line, and Brooks Laich for the second, unless we can pull of the Malkin deal!
I wouldn't call Malkin a guy that can "bang". Plus i don't know if he will be the Malkin we remember before the knee injury. Same goes for Roy.

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05-01-2011, 03:56 PM
  #96
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Regier needs to stop being such an ass and just draft a center in the 1st round.
I feel the same way. As far as adding vet centers I like the idea of trading for guys like Stoll and Vermette. Anyone think a Boyes+ deal could work to get Stoll?

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05-01-2011, 03:59 PM
  #97
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I feel the same way. As far as adding vet centers I like the idea of trading for guys like Stoll and Vermette. Anyone think a Boyes+ deal could work to get Stoll?
Highly doubtful. I'd have to think Pominville or Stafford would have to be moved for Stoll with other things being moved if necessary.

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05-01-2011, 04:06 PM
  #98
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Laich is not a center. He's a LW who at times has played center due to lineup issues with the Caps.

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05-01-2011, 04:11 PM
  #99
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I can pretty much guarantee Pommer isn't going anywhere.

He has a very severe tendon injury that may keep him out into the season. When combined with his limited NTC it would make it tough to move him.

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05-01-2011, 04:12 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
Laich is not a center. He's a LW who at times has played center due to lineup issues with the Caps.
Expect to say that no less than five more times between now and July 1. I'm surprised at how much that comes up in conversations about Laich. The fact that he's far better at wing is one of the primary reasons the went out and trade for Arnott.

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